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Old 02-16-2009, 05:55 PM   #1
808subaru
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Default Calling all wagons pre-08 for auto-x advice

Hello.
I have been auto-x now for about 3 seasons. Currently my car is racing in Street Modified, but technically can run in E-Street Prepared. I like the competition and camaraderie of SM, currently one of our region's (hawaii, about 120-130 drivers) largest class. ESP has usually camaros and one wrx (running 285's). I would probably place 2nd in ESP if i moved to that class.

Now my current class has about 12-15 competitors per event, and the top 6-7 places are usually top 30. I place around 6-7th, and the top four drivers in my class are top 10-15 drivers.

So, i was wondering how competetive a wagon can actually be against follow STI's (which i co-drove (STI)yesterday with 18's 285 tires). Am i better off getting an STI, and improve my techniques and go to 285's?
Or stay with my wrx wagon (MY2004) and run 245's on 17x8 wheels?
I have yet to put tires on these wheels, i am currently running oem 16's wrapped with v700 225/50/16's.

Providing your mod lists would be appreciated (suspension and powerwise).
Currently my car is dyno tuned for 15psi of boost 245 WHP/232 WTQ.
*I have yet to install my hotchkis FSB (25mm) and RSB (25mm).
So currently the car sits with a stock FSB and a whiteline RSB 22mm with whiteline solid endlinks. I have a cusco v1 front brace with whiteline ALK and front and rear STB's (whiteline). Tein flex coilovers with custom spring rates of 9k/7k. Camber set up front 2.5* neg. and about 2* in the rear.

Suggestions, reccomendations?
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:10 PM   #2
Scooby South
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front Anti-lift kit not legal in ESP....as for recomendations....
How far behind Joey and Francis are you....that and get some decent R' comps...

driving school....and 17x9 with the 245 'r's should do the trick...R700's are like an intermediate tire...hoosier A6 FTW....or even the kumho's V710's....should pick you up a sec or 2...


Bill
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:44 PM   #3
808subaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby South View Post
front Anti-lift kit not legal in ESP....as for recomendations....
How far behind Joey and Francis are you....that and get some decent R' comps...

driving school....and 17x9 with the 245 'r's should do the trick...R700's are like an intermediate tire...hoosier A6 FTW....or even the kumho's V710's....should pick you up a sec or 2...


Bill
Aloha Bill!
Behind joey and fran yesterday (we all drove the same STI) maybe less than 1/2 a second.
Thanks bill. Those 2 guys are in EM.
Any other tips you or anyone else can share would be great!
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:55 PM   #4
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IMHO, the cheaper option is stick with the WRX and develop it some more.

What are you trying to 'fix' with the high spring rates AND 25mm bars? High spring, low bar. High bar, low spring rates. Don't do both. You'll end up fighting the car a bit.

If trying to dial out understeer, try swapping your springs front to rear. Run softer in the front and higher in the rear, but keep the current bars for now. I preferred that in my wagon, but it suited my driving style... but it helped with my rotation and being able to get on the power a little earlier. YMMV.

Then again, I was in street tires and not r-comps... but I did that to get rid of almost any push that I had.

So define what you're tying to fix... and then go for the mods that will get you there.

--kC
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:26 PM   #5
Scooby South
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 808subaru View Post
Aloha Bill!
Behind joey and fran yesterday (we all drove the same STI) maybe less than 1/2 a second.
Thanks bill. Those 2 guys are in EM.
Any other tips you or anyone else can share would be great!
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
IMHO, the cheaper option is stick with the WRX and develop it some more.

What are you trying to 'fix' with the high spring rates AND 25mm bars? High spring, low bar. High bar, low spring rates. Don't do both. You'll end up fighting the car a bit.

If trying to dial out understeer, try swapping your springs front to rear. Run softer in the front and higher in the rear, but keep the current bars for now. I preferred that in my wagon, but it suited my driving style... but it helped with my rotation and being able to get on the power a little earlier. YMMV.

Then again, I was in street tires and not r-comps... but I did that to get rid of almost any push that I had.

So define what you're tying to fix... and then go for the mods that will get you there.

--kC
Alooooooooooha

OK....What KC said....And...THIS....All it takes is Moolahhhh...
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WgnWheel View Post
Guess I can put mine in, however theres so many killer wagons on here, I'm just happy to be recognized by some of you guys.

Background:

Bought the battle wagon new in '04. I wanted an Sti, but with a kiddo, dog, mtn. bikes, snowboards etc. it made more sense to get a wagon. It served it's purpose well until a fellow suby enthusiast convinced me to try out a local HPDE event, and it went downhill(or up?) from there!

2 years after taking delivery, I started doing track events often, as many as 15 a year and there was no slowing me down so it came to a point where the wagon was going to need some serious upgrades, or a switch to an easier to mod sedan...sedan? No way! Wagons FTW.

I chose to stay wagon because It was fun being the only one out there, surrounded by sedans, and being faster! Plus I would always get people coming up and checking the thing out and giving props. It garnered me enough attention that last season, Goodspeed Performance Lab approached me with a sponsorship deal. (BIG thanks to Goodspeed!) They've helped me transform the wagon from quick grocery getter, to pick up, drop off, smash up, chew up and spit out your groceries getter.

I currently run the NASA Time Trial series, in the TTS class and placed 5th in points out of 15(much more powerful) cars for the '08 season. On top of that, I missed half the season with the car getting a makeover! I've also competed in the Super Lap Battle, and for the '09 season I'll be running Super Lap and Redline Time Attacks as often as time and money allow.

At this point the wagon is certainly not done! More power, less weight, brake ducts, more tire and building a real rear wing and front splitter is in the very near future. Thanks to all the wagons here for keeping me inspired!


MOD LIST:

Complete s202 Spec C motor
s202 turbo inlet
Samco intake, rad hoses
Grimspeed pnp manifold, cross-pipe
Excedy twin disc clutch/fly
Deutschworks injectors
Cosworth timing belt guide
PE kevlar timing belt
APS bov
Aeromotive fuel rails
Cobb short ram
Blouch 18g
Moroso oil pan w/Cosworth baffle and oil pump
Greddy oil cooler kit
WBR fmic
Moroso oil sump
Cusco motor/tranny mounts
Fluidyne radiator
APS 3.5" tbe
DSS aluminum driveshaft
Cusco 1.5 way front and rear diffs
Cusco tarmac center diff
Rebuilt tranny w/RA gears
Perrin rear diff cover
STI front aluminum control arms
Whiteline roll control
Whiteline rear adj. lateral links
Whiteline subframe bolts
Whiteline steering rack bushings
Whiteline subframe bushings
Beathrush rear diff bushings
Whiteline alk
Whiteline front sway/endlinks
Hotchkis rear sway, perrin endlinks
Beatrush subframe
RCE tarmac 2 coilovers w/cusco camber plates
Cusco front stb
Cusco rear v-brace stb
Cobb short shift
JDM shifter extension
Brembo GT BBD front
Racing Brake rear kit
Goodridge lines
Hawk blue pads
JDM wagon front lip
Cwest canards
JDM mid spoiler
Sparco evo seats
Sparco harness bar
JDM window visors
JDM grille
Roof rail delete
APR cf mirrors
Nukabe tow hooks
STI rear diffuser w/cusco mount
Defi boost, oil temp, oil pressure
Greddy informeter
Greddy turbo timer
NRG short hub, qr, steering wheel
IS 300 flares
APR wheel studs frt/rr
Odyssey lightweight battery
Work 17x9 +44's w/255/40 bfg r1's
Rota 18x9 g-force w/265/35 toyo r888
Hasport Prototype pitch stop
rear seat removed, rear interior removed, headliner removed, stereo removed, a/c removed, rear wiper/motor removed, front and rear bumper beams removed
Repainted Matte PSM

In the next few months, the wagon will be getting a custom built GT3076 Twin -Scroll setup. The graphics are obviously different in the pics. The first, basic ones in just black were scrapped for the latest red/black design.








Complete s202 Spec C motor


Interior:

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Old 02-17-2009, 07:06 AM   #6
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Default

Oh, and read this thread: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1111819

It may require *some* setup changes since that whole thread is setting up for street tires, but very few if any at all. Setting up a WRX is about the same no matter what tires.

--kC
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:38 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby South View Post
front Anti-lift kit not legal in ESP....as for recomendations....
I'm not sure it's legal in SM either, for what it's worth. I think you have to go to Prepared class for those.

Any other advice I could give wouldn't be any more helpful than others in this thread have already posted.
-N
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilschelly View Post
I'm not sure it's legal in SM either, for what it's worth. I think you have to go to Prepared class for those.

Any other advice I could give wouldn't be any more helpful than others in this thread have already posted.
-N
It's a gray area. Rules say offset bushings are allowed, but not offset mountings. An ALK uses offset bushings
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
It's a gray area. Rules say offset bushings are allowed, but not offset mountings. An ALK uses offset bushings
Is it really a gray area? I'd always heard the "no moving suspension pickup points" rule made it very illegal.
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Old 02-17-2009, 01:58 PM   #10
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The ALK doesn't appear to be an offset bushing. The actual polyurethane is still a center-bored bushing. It's mounted in metal that is differently shaped from stock, and that moves the bushing into a new position and changes the suspension geometry. See first picture here: http://www.northursalia.com/modifica...n/alk/alk.html

I would not consider the metal piece part of the bushing. If so, I'm gonna go replace all my control arms and lateral links with ones that have new bushings pressed in place, since apparently that's really just covered under replacing the bushings. In other words, I don't see a gray area and I don't see an offset bushing.
-N
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:55 PM   #11
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There are two different types. The offset bushings were developed for use by autocrossers because the offset mount ALKs are illegal. Whiteline sells an offset bushing.
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaverboy View Post
There are two different types. The offset bushings were developed for use by autocrossers because the offset mount ALKs are illegal. Whiteline sells an offset bushing.
Well, then I take it back. If there's an ALK that's just an offset bushing, that's not even a gray area - that's allowed explicitly in the rules. I'm gonna have to look into that one myself now.
-N

EDIT: FYI. They don't call the offset bushing an ALK or anti-lift kit. It's called the Caster-adjusting Kit (KCA375). And I found one discussion that debates exactly what the difference is and whether or not the offset bushing offers any anti-lift effect, perhaps based on the rotation of the bushing: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=894071

...and now back to your regularly scheduled discussion...

Last edited by neilschelly; 02-17-2009 at 08:42 PM. Reason: Making my post more better.
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Old 02-17-2009, 10:32 PM   #13
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also check out the ESP thread- good info in there as well
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
IMHO, the cheaper option is stick with the WRX and develop it some more.

What are you trying to 'fix' with the high spring rates AND 25mm bars? High spring, low bar. High bar, low spring rates. Don't do both. You'll end up fighting the car a bit.
The Hotchkis bars are hollow. They're more like 23mm equivalent to a solid bar.

Looking at your setup, if you feel that it understeers the first (easiest) thing to try (other than tire pressures) is running less camber in the rear. Maybe more like -1.5 or -1. You can also raise the rear ride height to aid rotation (which will change your alignment).
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno View Post
The Hotchkis bars are hollow. They're more like 23mm equivalent to a solid bar.

Looking at your setup, if you feel that it understeers the first (easiest) thing to try (other than tire pressures) is running less camber in the rear. Maybe more like -1.5 or -1. You can also raise the rear ride height to aid rotation (which will change your alignment).
thanks, i'll play with that.
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:12 AM   #16
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OK, need some help again. I raised my coilovers to about stock height, maybe even higher. With everything being the same, i ran ok with the stock 16's w/ kumho v700 225/50/16's.
Last weekend i ran 17x8 OZ ultraleggaras w/ 235/45/17 BF goodrich R-1's.

But this past weekend, the car just plowed EVERYwhere! I tried to dial down the settings maybe 13 clicks softer front and about 10 clicks rear, but with only 4 runs, could'nt get it figured out. Do i need to run the softest setting on the coilovers due to my stiffer than normal spring settings? Stiff, larger bars need softer suspension or the car is "fighting itself" so to speak correct?
I didn't even feel the swaybars working at some points. It was horrible, and a learning experience. Please help. thank you
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Old 04-15-2009, 03:14 AM   #17
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Let me also add that there is now much noticeable oversteer. It'll take getting used to, but the car just snaps after i turn and pull the wheel back.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:23 AM   #18
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The car is plowing and has more noticeable oversteer?

I think you've got to be a little more clear as to what circumstances are leading to what conditions.
-N
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:57 AM   #19
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^ yeah I'm a little confused as well

also when trying to illicit a different behavior (under/over steer) from the car w/ dampers- softening (or firming) both end of the cars rarely will do that- usually you want to soften one end, firm up the other
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:20 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 808subaru View Post
OK, need some help again. I raised my coilovers to about stock height, maybe even higher. With everything being the same, i ran ok with the stock 16's w/ kumho v700 225/50/16's.
Last weekend i ran 17x8 OZ ultraleggaras w/ 235/45/17 BF goodrich R-1's.

But this past weekend, the car just plowed EVERYwhere! I tried to dial down the settings maybe 13 clicks softer front and about 10 clicks rear, but with only 4 runs, could'nt get it figured out. Do i need to run the softest setting on the coilovers due to my stiffer than normal spring settings? Stiff, larger bars need softer suspension or the car is "fighting itself" so to speak correct?
I didn't even feel the swaybars working at some points. It was horrible, and a learning experience. Please help. thank you
Did you align the car after drastically changing the height? How about corner weighting it?
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:43 AM   #21
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So you're running stiff springs (9k/7k) with stiff bars (25mm/25mm) and wondering why the car can't maintain adhesion? That is: both understeering and oversteering drastically.
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Old 04-15-2009, 12:05 PM   #22
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Corner weighting shouldn't make much of a difference at this level. It's entirely believable that you can tune things a bit better as you get used to them. As for alignment, it may be worth checking, depending on how much height adjustment you did and how symmetrically you aligned things when you installed the coilovers, since there's a lot of play in the strut bolts.

The supposition that 68Cadillac is making that a car with stiff bars and springs shouldn't be able to maintain adhesion isn't true - not sure where that theory would come from. Or perhaps he's just asking for clarification and not trying to suggest that, but that's not enough detail.

You really need to be specific about what's happening. If you're not getting a lot of bite on turn in (push), but the car is fishtailing out of a corner, then we can work on that. If it's asymmetric, then maybe it's really just an alignment issue and you should have that checked. If you're having a lot of trouble with stability on high speed sweepers on a bumpy surface, but the lower-speed turns are fine, then perhaps what you're looking for is a few clicks away on the struts. Ultimately, you need to be more specific than just saying the car is both pushing and oversteering, because there's no answer anyone can give to help with that.
-N
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:57 PM   #23
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OK, thanks for the help neilshelly et al.

I guess what I'm trying to say was that on my last run i was able to get some of the oversteer back, but the car still doesn't have the initial turn-in "bite" that it used to. Our courses are tight and VERY technical. My car rarely sees speeds of 45+ mph on the course, and then only for short bursts of a second or so. No real large high sped sweepers to contend with.

I have the ability to self align the car, with longacre tools.'
Corner-weighting is quite an advanced procedure i was told, for cars who have drivers at the peak of performance level.

Would anyone suggest i update my coilovers?
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:25 PM   #24
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My preference with courses that are so tight is to have the suspension as stiff as I can make it and actually to loosen it only when I want more grip from a particular end of the car. So given that description, I would tighten the suspension all around and loosen up the front a bit to make sure it bites, especially if there's some bumps around. I'd make sure your toe is either straight or just slightly out (but toe out may make it less stable/streetable if you go too far). That will help out in turn in. Also make sure to get as much negative camber as possible in the front. You may be running too much negative camber in the back. I ran -2.5 deg most of last year and I am sure I was overdoing it. The car felt great and stable in high-speed sweepers but it plowed into every slow corner.

Keep in mind too that the timing of braking and acceleration in the corners has a lot to do with how the car is handling - keep thinking about where the weight of the car is and what wheels (if any) are slipping on acceleration or deceleration.

Finally, what did you do to finally get some oversteer on the last run?
-N
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilschelly View Post
My preference with courses that are so tight is to have the suspension as stiff as I can make it and actually to loosen it only when I want more grip from a particular end of the car. So given that description, I would tighten the suspension all around and loosen up the front a bit to make sure it bites, especially if there's some bumps around. I'd make sure your toe is either straight or just slightly out (but toe out may make it less stable/streetable if you go too far). That will help out in turn in. Also make sure to get as much negative camber as possible in the front. You may be running too much negative camber in the back. I ran -2.5 deg most of last year and I am sure I was overdoing it. The car felt great and stable in high-speed sweepers but it plowed into every slow corner.

Keep in mind too that the timing of braking and acceleration in the corners has a lot to do with how the car is handling - keep thinking about where the weight of the car is and what wheels (if any) are slipping on acceleration or deceleration.

Finally, what did you do to finally get some oversteer on the last run?
-N
As far as negative camber in the rear, i will get rid of some of it. I will try to get as much negative as possible in the front, and toe i will have to check and see what the specs are.

When i finally got some oversteer, i had drastically changed the settings several clicks to the left +3 firmer than the rear setting ( i don't know if this makes sense, but i dialed the suspesion much softer). I also tried to brake earlier, since i was unable to get the steering response that i had been used to.

I'm wondering if i should go back to using the v700's until they expire, or continue with the R-1's.
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