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Old 02-22-2009, 01:25 PM   #26
oversteer
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This looks to be a great pump gas combo. Nice tune What numbers would a Pro-tuned Stage 2 STI put down on the same fuel and dyno as your 391 lb-ft, 378whp @ 22psi? I would love to see any overlaid dyno graph to compare the curves.

Everything else being equal how would the results vary if you had a GT3071R .63? Can you take advantage of the larger GT3076R on 92 octane?

How much messing around was it to put the Perrin GD rotated kit on your GR?

Engine bay pics?
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Old 02-22-2009, 02:20 PM   #27
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looks like it must be a fun drive on the street.

I find it very interesting, and refreshing that a tuner is posting so much information related to the tune.. You can see it all..

I wish i knew how to process much of the information though!
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Old 02-22-2009, 07:35 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
Oh.. and here is a look at the fuel map:



I decided to make the fuel map simple, and work on the MAF curve to try to get AFRs close to the targets. It worked pretty well, but still needs a bit more work. The load comp map could use a few tweaks as well.



EDIT: Here is the dynamic map, which is added to the base map.



Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
Nice post - good to see a tuner not scared to post some real info.

That's some aggresive timing, got to love E85

Also, are your actual AFR's tracking exactly as your fuel map, or are they out a bit - your AFR's look on the lean side? Or do you tune E85 more lean compared to pump?
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Old 02-22-2009, 09:48 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
Thanks for an interesting post.

Do you have dyno charts from this car that show a good (apples-to-apples) comparison of the .63 and .82 housings?
Here is a graph of this same car with the .82 in the spring of 08. Boost was not the same (less in the .82), so ignore the absolute values.

However the difference in boosts threshold is pretty evident.

300 lb-ft is crossed at 3445rpm with the .63, and 3790rpm with the .82. (Difference of 345rpm)
350 lb-ft is crossed at 3700rpm with the .63, and 4000rpm with the .82. (Difference of 300rpm)



Quote:
Originally Posted by garagedefeat View Post
here here! I've stockpiled data posted on this site by Jeff, and used that and some basic math--in lieu of testing anything real-world--to come up with my power adder setup. it's amazing what you can learn with concise data/graphs and explanations from someone in-the-know.
thanks, and nice job with the 08.
ps - what I really dig is how the dyno plots are always scaled the same. I've actually photoshopped a bunch of them together and overlayed them for a little real-world support for compressor map data
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kastley85891 View Post
Great info with 'real' data as usual , very interesting an informative, thx
Thanks guys. There really isn't anything that secret in tuning, so I too wonder why other tuners don't post much. For many it might just be an issue of not having enough time. I have gotten pretty efficient, so it took me a bit less then 30 mins to build these graphs and write up some text to post up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oversteer View Post
This looks to be a great pump gas combo. Nice tune What numbers would a Pro-tuned Stage 2 STI put down on the same fuel and dyno as your 391 lb-ft, 378whp @ 22psi? I would love to see any overlaid dyno graph to compare the curves.
Everything else being equal how would the results vary if you had a GT3071R .63? Can you take advantage of the larger GT3076R on 92 octane?
How much messing around was it to put the Perrin GD rotated kit on your GR?
Engine bay pics?
I'll find a good one to compare and post back. Stage 2s are usually in the 280 range, with a few really good ones in the 300ish range. Actually I can dig up my own stage 2 graphs from this car.

As for the 71 vs 76, I have not had much experience with the 71. At 22 psi, I suspect the 76 will be a bit more efficient, which is good for pump fuel. If anything the larger compressor is a benifit on pump more then race fuel.

This GR kit was the first one Jeff Perrin made, as we did it for the Subiesport article in April of 08. I think they have the GR kits out now... hmm let me give JeffP a ring..


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Old 02-22-2009, 10:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oversteer View Post
This looks to be a great pump gas combo. Nice tune What numbers would a Pro-tuned Stage 2 STI put down on the same fuel and dyno as your 391 lb-ft, 378whp @ 22psi? I would love to see any overlaid dyno graph to compare the curves.
Ask and receive:



Here is a plot vs my actual car back in December of 2007 in stock form. The stock tune is so crappy that even with the larger GT3076R, overall torque is no worse down low. The stock tune ends up running the car so lean and with so little timing that the spool advantage is lost.


Here is another plot, against my car at some point in Jan/Feb 08 with an exhaust. Here you can see how a proper tune with the stock turbo really helps out. Even with the .63, the stock turbo out torques it to 3500 rpm.


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Old 02-22-2009, 10:09 PM   #31
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Quote:
I'll find a good one to compare and post back. Stage 2s are usually in the 280 range, with a few really good ones in the 300ish range. Actually I can dig up my own stage 2 graphs from this car.
It would be great to see the comparison. Was your original '08 shortblock not up to the task of handling this much power?

Quote:
At 22 psi, I suspect the 76 will be a bit more efficient, which is good for pump fuel. If anything the larger compressor is a benifit on pump more then race fuel.
Can you please shed more light on this? Do you think the 76 makes more power at 22psi on pump gas than the 71 would? Even on Cali 91 octane? I always thought the smaller 71 would be more efficient below 25psi.

Quote:
This GR kit was the first one Jeff Perrin made, as we did it for the Subiesport article in April of 08. I think they have the GR kits out now...
Do you have any pics of the kit installed?

One more for you --- what is the big advantage to running Speed Density on this set up?

Thanks

Last edited by oversteer; 02-22-2009 at 10:58 PM. Reason: more
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxsti.l View Post
Nice post - good to see a tuner not scared to post some real info.

That's some aggresive timing, got to love E85

Also, are your actual AFR's tracking exactly as your fuel map, or are they out a bit - your AFR's look on the lean side? Or do you tune E85 more lean compared to pump?
Hmm.. You have lost me. Per the first post, this is a pump fuel tune. The mention along the way about E85 was in reference to E85 on my EZ30R WRX.

As for the timing, also as the timing chart shows, 12 degrees at Torque peak, and 17.5 at HP Peak. I wouldn't consider that agresssive, especially if it really were E85.

As for AFRs, 11.2-11.5 AFRs is spot on for 92 octane. For E85, I would probably be around the same lambda, but of course it would be a much richer AFR.

AFRs are pretty close to the map, but not perfect. I left the map as a flat set of values so I could work on the MAF curve. Once that is close, I can fine tune within the fuel map.


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Old 02-22-2009, 10:38 PM   #33
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wrxsti.l Agressive timing lol, for E-85??? What? lol
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:48 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
Well, Jeff, you may be the first tuner that will actually help me out on this, but here goes:

I did a thread on this in the legacyGT forums a while back:
REAL turbo data,.............by LBGT

In order to truly convey what the car is like to drive on the street, I find it necessary to actually plot whp in the lower gears, where load on the engine is less, and low end torque is down.

I am sure you know exactly what I mean.

My request is for you to show a whp plot of your 30R in the lower gears. That will tell us a lot. I would actually love to see it compared to the stage2 STI in the lower gears, the chart above shows very little difference. I think you will find that difference expands a bit in 2nd gear.

If you can find the time to do this, that would be great!
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:17 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by TDagen View Post
wrxsti.l Agressive timing lol, for E-85??? What? lol
Just quickly looked and noticed his low-mid load and rpm timing is quite aggressive - more aggressive them my EJ207 STi's factory tune and more then my current tune - so compared to it is aggressive

I didn't look through the higher load cells properly though, my bad.
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:22 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Well, Jeff, you may be the first tuner that will actually help me out on this, but here goes:

I did a thread on this in the legacyGT forums a while back:
REAL turbo data,.............by LBGT

In order to truly convey what the car is like to drive on the street, I find it necessary to actually plot whp in the lower gears, where load on the engine is less, and low end torque is down.

I am sure you know exactly what I mean.

My request is for you to show a whp plot of your 30R in the lower gears. That will tell us a lot. I would actually love to see it compared to the stage2 STI in the lower gears, the chart above shows very little difference. I think you will find that difference expands a bit in 2nd gear.

If you can find the time to do this, that would be great!

Without doing a plot I can assert that you are more or less correct. The larger GT30 spools compartivly slower in lower gears when contrasted to the stock turbo.

It is difficult to do lower gears on the dyno as the tires break loose due to the much greater amount of actual wheel torque. (although third is easy to do). I could do a log on the road, and as my first post demonstrates load is a close correlation to torque.

I'll make a 1st, 2nd, 3rd log to compare to the 4th gear load. That will be a good estimation of what the torque/hp would be.

As for HP, peak HP will likly be the same in all gears as the peak occurs at a high enough RPM that the turbo can fully spool regardless of gear.

When I consider how the car compares on the street, I personally find that the actual 'lag' of the turbo to be more important then low end torque. I can always downshift, and often if in a spirited drive will be at higher rpms. However actual lag time (the time from full throttle to boost build) is what makes big turbo cars so less streetable. Even when you are above the 'boost threshold', it takes time to spool. I find the .63 to be much better in that department then the .82.

Oh, one other thing. FFS makes bigger turbos much better. Much much better.


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Old 02-23-2009, 12:25 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxsti.l View Post
Just quickly looked and noticed his low-mid load and rpm timing is quite aggressive - more aggressive them my EJ207 STi's factory tune and more then my current tune - so compared to it is aggressive

I didn't look through the higher load cells properly though, my bad.
AH... Yes the lower load mid load cells might be a bit higher, as I probably don't hit those. With a 16psi wastegate, boost is never less then 16psi once spooled (with the exception of partial throttle).

Also, if you ever useded the EcuTek stuff on the no DBW cars, load was g/rev not g/cyl, thus load on the newer stuff is 1/2 the older load values.\

EDIT: Here is a sample stock Spec C map:



At a load of 2.8 at 4000 rpm, I would have 10.94 + 4.24 (15.18), while the Spec C would have 7.7 + 16.8 ( 24.5 ). The Knock based additive advance in the older Spec C ECUs is just crazy timing... Got to love the great fuel they have there!


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Old 02-23-2009, 12:42 AM   #38
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Subscribed for a great tuner with amazing amounts of information. Very glad that you are on here to contribute
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:00 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
Here is a graph of this same car with the .82 in the spring of 08. Boost was not the same (less in the .82), so ignore the absolute values.

However the difference in boosts threshold is pretty evident.

300 lb-ft is crossed at 3445rpm with the .63, and 3790rpm with the .82. (Difference of 345rpm)
350 lb-ft is crossed at 3700rpm with the .63, and 4000rpm with the .82. (Difference of 300rpm)

Thanks! Did you find much difference in top-end between the .63 and .82 on straight pump after both tunes were finished? Graphs optional, I'll take your word for it.
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:07 PM   #40
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OMG....its my dream post. I dont even know what to say

Did you tune the timing from 2500-3500 rpm to drop like that, then start increasing again after 3500? Looks like you're 2-3* low in that whole region. Just curious if there was a reason for it or if you just werent really paying close attention to the lower rpm cells?
Both the base and the advance are jumping up and down above a load of 2 from 1600rpm-2400rpm. is there any reasoning for that? I know the stock ecu's do this too and i've never understood why.

Also, how do you "visualize" the total timing when the loads for the advance map dont match the base?

Do you know what your target boost was set at? Kinda looks like you were maxing the MAP at 22.xx psi, hence it being completely flat from 4000-4500. Seems that the TD's started pulling WGDC and caused the dip in boost after 4500rpm.

Great thread Jeff.
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:07 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
OMG....it’s my dream post. I don’t even know what to say

Did you tune the timing from 2500-3500 rpm to drop like that, then start increasing again after 3500? Looks like you're 2-3* low in that whole region. Just curious if there was a reason for it or if you just werent really paying close attention to the lower rpm cells?
Both the base and the advance are jumping up and down above a load of 2 from 1600rpm-2400rpm. is there any reasoning for that? I know the stock ecu's do this too and i've never understood why.

Also, how do you "visualize" the total timing when the loads for the advance map don’t match the base?

Do you know what your target boost was set at? Kinda looks like you were maxing the MAP at 22.xx psi, hence it being completely flat from 4000-4500. Seems that the TD's started pulling WGDC and caused the dip in boost after 4500rpm.

Great thread Jeff.
Excellent point about the timing dip. I drew a line over the timing map showing the load/rpm during the pull:



Yep, that dip in timing corresponds to those cells that go from 12 down to 8, back up to 10. I'll smooth that out a bit and see how it works. If memory serves me I did get some sensitivity to knock at a few spots down low, especially on the road if you jump into it. I’ll double check my logs.

Boost was set to 22.5, but with a taper down to 21 at redline, thus the TDs pulling the WGDC (and boost) down a bit. Given that pretty much all my other cars are always in a state of flux, I wanted to keep this from getting too crazy.

Indeed the 1600 rpm row is a bit odd, as it is higher than the rows above it and below it. I suspect this is just an artifact, as the car would not normally hit those cells ( 2.5 load at 1600 rpm ). I’ll clean that up while I am in there.

I generally rely on the logs to visualize the resulting timing, then adjust things in the base map. I have considered redoing the additive maps so they have cells that line up.

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Old 02-23-2009, 05:22 PM   #42
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thats what i figured. i rarely pay attention to the top right and bottom left cells since its so rare that you ever get into them, especially with a gt30 sized turbo.

One other thing with regards to the timing map.....isnt 38* low for 1.00 and below? If I go that low my EGT's get up to 1450-1500* while cruising in those load cells on the freeway.

I believe its partially due to our 91 octane here though.
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:51 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
thats what i figured. i rarely pay attention to the top right and bottom left cells since its so rare that you ever get into them, especially with a gt30 sized turbo.

One other thing with regards to the timing map.....isnt 38* low for 1.00 and below? If I go that low my EGT's get up to 1450-1500* while cruising in those load cells on the freeway.

I believe its partially due to our 91 octane here though.
Good eye. I changed those to 38 while messing around trying to determine the cause of a hickup at light throttle at 2800 rpm. I'll have to change those back. My EGTs didn't change much at all, but they were always around 1425 or so. I'm not sure there would be anything wrong with slightly higher EGTs however. My honda, when in cruise, was always right at 1500.


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Old 02-23-2009, 06:07 PM   #44
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i've never really had any reference for "normal" EGT since i had all my mods before i got my gauge.....the nasioc window seems to be 1350-1450 for cruising and staying below 1650 for "conservative" tune and below 1800* for people with large testicles.
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:34 PM   #45
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Jeff I commend you for shedding some light into some tuning secrets!
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Old 02-23-2009, 11:15 PM   #46
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wow, this should get thread of the year!

absolutely amazing stuff here! (I would imagine this is what nasioc used to be like back in the day?)
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Old 02-23-2009, 11:58 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Well, Jeff, you may be the first tuner that will actually help me out on this, but here goes:

I did a thread on this in the legacyGT forums a while back:
REAL turbo data,.............by LBGT

In order to truly convey what the car is like to drive on the street, I find it necessary to actually plot whp in the lower gears, where load on the engine is less, and low end torque is down.

I am sure you know exactly what I mean.

My request is for you to show a whp plot of your 30R in the lower gears. That will tell us a lot. I would actually love to see it compared to the stage2 STI in the lower gears, the chart above shows very little difference. I think you will find that difference expands a bit in 2nd gear.

If you can find the time to do this, that would be great!
Here we go. ( Yes, I am the graphmaster. )





So, 2nd gear is significant different from 3rd gear in terms of load and boost. Next time I get a stock and stage 2 08 STI I'll get some equivilent data.

Notice that while the boost in 2nd doesn't reach the target until abour 4400rpm, the load (which translates well to torque) reaches the 3/4 target at about 4100 rpm. Clearly the VE of the motor near torque peak makes good torque even with a bit less boost (but more timing).

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Old 02-24-2009, 12:35 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by modaddict View Post
wow, this should get thread of the year!

absolutely amazing stuff here! (I would imagine this is what nasioc used to be like back in the day?)
Thank you! Indeed back in the beginning, it did seem that everyone was open eyed to learn more. Now days things seem a bit more formulaic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
Thanks! Did you find much difference in top-end between the .63 and .82 on straight pump after both tunes were finished? Graphs optional, I'll take your word for it.
I couldn't find any equivalent pump fuel graphs for the .82, but here is a comparison of when I ran pump + meth with the 3076R .82.



The .82 tune on 92 + Meth Spray was 430whp, 470 lb-ft of torque. Boost was about 27 psi midrange, 25 psi up top.

Now of course we can't compare the actual numbers, but of you look at the .82 plot, even at much higher boost the HP above 6k is pretty flat. On the .63 the HP has a faster drop off, even though the .82 tune had a greater amount of boost drop up high.

On the street, the .82 feels like it is a bit flatter up top, but part of that is just the perception because the spoolup is a bit later, and hits a bit harder. I think at higher boost levels the .82 starts to make a bigger difference. If this were a track car, I'd stick with the .82, but for around town the .63 feels better.

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Old 02-24-2009, 01:06 AM   #49
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+1 TOTY. I'll be rereading this thread for weeks.
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:49 AM   #50
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I dont want to hijack, but just so you guys realize how good that is here is the data for my Green (smaller turbo).....makes me wanna go rotated....

Maybe my data just "appears" bad cause im on 91+meth and at higher boost.....whats your take Jeff? Maybe my load would plateau more if i was just on pump (IE get rid of the low rpm spike).



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