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Old 02-24-2009, 02:11 AM   #51
socalLGT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I dont want to hijack, but just so you guys realize how good that is here is the data for my Green (smaller turbo).....makes me wanna go rotated....

Maybe my data just "appears" bad cause im on 91+meth and at higher boost.....whats your take Jeff? Maybe my load would plateau more if i was just on pump (IE get rid of the low rpm spike).



That's cuz you suck Ron My GT35R .82 car spools just as fast if not faster :cool Straight 91 octane in these logs hence the lowish boost. No pretty graphs here, but here are some 2nd and 3rd gear logs:

2nd Gear
Code:
Time    Speed	MRP	RPM
30:23.4	17	0.15	1950
30:23.5	17	0.15	1950
30:23.6	19	0.44	2013
30:23.7	19	0.44	2013
30:23.8	19	0.44	2013
30:23.9	20	0.73	2045
30:24.0	20	0.73	2045
30:24.2	21	1.02	2252
30:24.3	21	1.02	2252
30:24.4	22	1.31	2484
30:24.5	22	1.31	2484
30:24.6	22	1.31	2484
30:24.7	24	1.74	2582
30:24.8	24	1.74	2582
30:24.9	26	2.32	2749
30:25.0	26	2.32	2749
30:25.1	28	3.05	3003
30:25.3	28	3.05	3003
30:25.4	28	3.05	3003
30:25.5	30	3.92	3181
30:25.6	30	3.92	3181
30:25.7	32	5.22	3406
30:25.8	32	5.22	3406
30:25.9	34	7.4	3684
30:26.0	34	7.4	3684
30:26.1	34	7.4	3684
30:26.2	37	10.59	3972
30:26.3	37	10.59	3972
30:26.5	40	15.95	4317
30:26.6	40	15.95	4317
30:26.7	43	20.16	4697
30:26.8	43	20.16	4697
30:26.9	43	20.16	4697
30:27.0	48	19	5110
30:27.1	48	19	5110
30:27.2	52	19	5538
30:27.3	52	19	5538
30:27.4	55	19.14	5916
30:27.5	55	19.14	5916
30:27.7	55	19.14	5916
30:27.8	59	18.71	6286
30:27.9	59	18.71	6286
30:28.0	62	18.56	6657
30:28.1	62	18.56	6657
30:28.2	66	19.14	7038
30:28.3	66	19.14	7038
30:28.4	66	19.14	7038
30:28.5	68	18.85	7322
30:28.6	68	18.85	7322
30:28.8	71	18.71	7609
30:28.9	71	18.71	7609
30:29.0	74	19	7866
30:29.1	74	19	7866
30:29.2	74	19	7866
3rd Gear
Code:
Time    Speed	MRP	RPM
35:53.7	27	-0.87	2027
35:53.8	27	-0.87	2027
35:53.9	27	-0.87	2027
35:54.0	29	0.73	2079
35:54.1	29	0.73	2079
35:54.2	29	1.31	2159
35:54.3	29	1.31	2159
35:54.5	30	1.45	2252
35:54.6	30	1.45	2252
35:54.7	30	1.45	2252
35:54.8	32	1.89	2298
35:54.9	32	1.89	2298
35:55.0	33	2.32	2389
35:55.1	33	2.32	2389
35:55.2	34	2.61	2500
35:55.3	34	2.61	2500
35:55.4	34	2.61	2500
35:55.5	35	2.9	2588
35:55.7	35	2.9	2588
35:55.8	37	3.34	2684
35:55.9	37	3.34	2684
35:56.0	37	3.34	2684
35:56.1	38	3.77	2790
35:56.2	38	3.77	2790
35:56.3	40	4.5	2904
35:56.4	40	4.5	2904
35:56.5	41	5.22	3008
35:56.6	41	5.22	3008
35:56.8	41	5.22	3008
35:56.9	43	6.24	3118
35:57.0	43	6.24	3118
35:57.1	44	7.25	3244
35:57.2	44	7.25	3244
35:57.3	46	8.85	3371
35:57.4	46	8.85	3371
35:57.5	46	8.85	3371
35:57.6	48	11.17	3522
35:57.7	48	11.17	3522
35:57.8	50	14.36	3708
35:58.0	50	14.36	3708
35:58.1	53	18.71	3889
35:58.2	53	18.71	3889
35:58.3	53	18.71	3889
35:58.4	55	20.31	4096
35:58.5	55	20.31	4096
35:58.6	58	21.03	4285
35:58.7	58	21.03	4285
35:58.8	62	20.45	4485
35:58.9	62	20.45	4485
35:59.0	62	20.45	4485
35:59.2	64	19.87	4701
35:59.3	64	19.87	4701
35:59.4	67	20.02	4902
35:59.5	67	20.02	4902
35:59.6	70	20.6	5087
35:59.7	70	20.6	5087
35:59.8	70	20.6	5087
35:59.9	72	20.45	5278
36:00.0	72	20.45	5278
36:00.1	75	20.02	5466
36:00.2	75	20.02	5466
36:00.4	78	20.16	5673
36:00.5	78	20.16	5673
36:00.6	78	20.16	5673
36:00.7	80	20.02	5888
36:00.8	80	20.02	5888
36:00.9	83	19.44	6050
36:01.0	83	19.44	6050
36:01.1	85	19.29	6219
36:01.2	85	19.29	6219
36:01.3	85	19.29	6219
36:01.5	88	19.14	6375
36:01.6	88	19.14	6375
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:29 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalLGT View Post
That's cuz you suck Ron My GT35R .82 car spools just as fast if not faster :cool Straight 91 octane in these logs hence the lowish boost. No pretty graphs here, but here are some 2nd and 3rd gear logs:
at least i can make a graph in excel

thats not fair Mr. Headwork, cams, half cosworth motor, rotated, reverse manifold.....did i miss anything

oh.....and the 5 speed.....so your 2nd gear pull hitting 20psi at 4700rpm should be compared to my 3rd gear hitting 20psi at 4050 rpm. so there

and your 3rd, 20psi @ 4100rpm
to my 4th, 20psi @ 3600rpm

Screw your extra 100whp and faster car....i spool to a meaningless number faster
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:26 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
at least i can make a graph in excel

thats not fair Mr. Headwork, cams, half cosworth motor, rotated, reverse manifold.....did i miss anything

oh.....and the 5 speed.....so your 2nd gear pull hitting 20psi at 4700rpm should be compared to my 3rd gear hitting 20psi at 4050 rpm. so there

and your 3rd, 20psi @ 4100rpm
to my 4th, 20psi @ 3600rpm

Screw your extra 100whp and faster car....i spool to a meaningless number faster
You know I gotta give you crap when I can BTW, I was just reading this month's issue of Car and Driver. The $304K Mercedes SL65 AMG Black Series goes from 50-70 mph in 1.9 seconds. I've never really paid any attention to the time stamp in logs, but it looks like my car does the same thing in 1.7 seconds. Not too shabby
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:08 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Well, Jeff, you may be the first tuner that will actually help me out on this, but here goes:

I did a thread on this in the legacyGT forums a while back:
REAL turbo data,.............by LBGT

In order to truly convey what the car is like to drive on the street, I find it necessary to actually plot whp in the lower gears, where load on the engine is less, and low end torque is down.
I didnt look through all the pages in your thread, but im pretty sure you have the data for my Green, my HTA Green, now jeffs gt30.....

Any chance you can put all your 49-56 lb/min turbo data together. Im really interested to see all your data in that range. Mainly to see if you can tell a significant difference betweeb journal and bb.

I think a OG Green vs a stock location gt30 would be interesting.

Stock location gt30 vs stock location gt35.

Im being selfish....im sure others would like to see more data....but i want/need to upgrade one or both of my turbos, but i dont want to go rotated.
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:10 AM   #55
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that looks fantastic. I'm sure it's a blast to drive.
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Old 02-24-2009, 12:54 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
3076R, .63 A/R

With the .82 at 27psi peak and 24-25 at redline with Meth Spray I did 470 lb-ft of torque and 430 whp, but I doubt I could get that much whp with the .63. Once I get a few more miles on the shortblock I'll turn up the boost a bit in the midrange and see how it does. I did manage a few pulls at 400-405 lb-ft while tuning.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
Surgeline Tuning
I would greatly appreciate a .82 vs. .63 pump dyno comparison....if you have it.
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:03 PM   #57
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Word, As I have the .82 and wanna see it as well
My dyno chart is down on post #21 of this thread, my tuner posted it : http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1638283
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:17 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post




Very nice indeed.

I believe the data in that post speaks volumes about how that turbo is like to drive on the street.
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:18 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I dont want to hijack, but just so you guys realize how good that is here is the data for my Green (smaller turbo).....makes me wanna go rotated....

Maybe my data just "appears" bad cause im on 91+meth and at higher boost.....whats your take Jeff? Maybe my load would plateau more if i was just on pump (IE get rid of the low rpm spike).
No worries... It is great to see other data. It is interesting how your load ramps then drops. I should have you email me a datalog so I can overlay. The Green and GT30R have similar compressor peaks, but the maps themselves are different.

Also, here is an updated set of graphs with 5th and 1st gear added:





Sure enough 1st gear spool is much slower, and 5th gear is surprisingly fast. Of course the taller gears in the 08 help a little bit as well.

Jeff Sponaugle
Surgeline Tuning
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:19 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
at least i can make a graph in excel

thats not fair Mr. Headwork, cams, half cosworth motor, rotated, reverse manifold.....did i miss anything

oh.....and the 5 speed.....so your 2nd gear pull hitting 20psi at 4700rpm should be compared to my 3rd gear hitting 20psi at 4050 rpm. so there

and your 3rd, 20psi @ 4100rpm
to my 4th, 20psi @ 3600rpm

Screw your extra 100whp and faster car....i spool to a meaningless number faster
FWIW socal's car uses an 05 style block IIRC, so an 08+ dual AVCS would likely have a bit of a spool edge IMO.

Oh, and 15 psi (or 22 or whatever) out of a GT35 is gonna be a little bit more power then 15 psi out of a 49 lb/turbo.

Quote:
I didnt look through all the pages in your thread, but im pretty sure you have the data for my Green, my HTA Green, now jeffs gt30.....

Any chance you can put all your 49-56 lb/min turbo data together. Im really interested to see all your data in that range. Mainly to see if you can tell a significant difference betweeb journal and bb.

I think a OG Green vs a stock location gt30 would be interesting.

Stock location gt30 vs stock location gt35.

Im being selfish....im sure others would like to see more data....but i want/need to upgrade one or both of my turbos, but i dont want to go rotated.
I will work on some graphs, but I only have Paul's logs, and yours for bigger turbo stuff.

It is really best to compare the same gearing, as you stated already.
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:36 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
FWIW socal's car uses an 05 style block IIRC, so an 08+ dual AVCS would likely have a bit of a spool edge IMO.

Oh, and 15 psi (or 22 or whatever) out of a GT35 is gonna be a little bit more power then 15 psi out of a 49 lb/turbo.



I will work on some graphs, but I only have Paul's logs, and yours for bigger turbo stuff.

It is really best to compare the same gearing, as you stated already.

Ron: If you email me some logs of different gears, I'll overlay using Origin (much better graphing). Same for LittleBlueGT (name?). Drop them to me a [email protected].

Jeff
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:10 PM   #62
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The lower gear power is pretty interesting stuff and largely overlooked.

This is why i'm kinda stuck right now. I love the daily powerband of my Green, but i want more......but i dont wanna add any lag.

My stipulations are
- no cams and no headwork (just too costly to me for a DD)
- no rotated setups (i like being stealthy, tmic and stock location turbo hidden by a turbo blanket )
- So that pretty much limits my upgrading to
- 52 lb/min journal
- 52 lb/min bb
- 55-56 lb/min journal
- 55-56 lb/min bb
- 60-62 lb/min journal
- 60-62 lb/min bb

I've been eyeing the atp35 for sometime but im afraid its gonna be lagalicious.
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:23 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregsblueRex View Post
I would greatly appreciate a .82 vs. .63 pump dyno comparison....if you have it.
This is the closest thing I have:

This is my car with the .63 on pump vs the .82 on pump, but I was running a bit more midrange boost. The extra torque in the .82 is due to that boost (~ 23 psi). The power uptop is at almost the same boost level (21-22psi).

The 82 doesn't make much difference at this lower boost level, as you would expect. Spoolup is of course not as good with the 82, as evident in the torque.



Jeff Sponaugle
Surgeline Tuning
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:07 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
...5th gear is surprisingly fast...
That, and the much more noticeable mid range torque "hit" were the 2 biggest differences I noted between the hotsides. 5th gear really comes alive with the .63 - you rarely need to downshift (this is with my '04 gearing). The .82 seems "smoother" whereas the .63 is a freaking monster between 3.5-5.5K rpm; however, this may be due to the fact that the .82 keeps on chugging right up to redline. Just my seat of the pants observation.

Great thread, Jeff. BTW, I learned a little trick here about 2 years ago with the AVC-r and the .63: this setup will surge badly in 6th gear, so I had to setup the AVC-r to use gears 2-6, and left 1st out. It worked perfectly, and 1st was still plenty quick.

Last edited by flycaster; 02-24-2009 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 02-24-2009, 04:04 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post

I imagine that the lower gears would look proportionally worse with the larger AR.

ie: in 2nd gear the spool hit would be 700 rpm between the two.


Ron: I have yet to see any boost threshold change attributable to bb vs journal bearing, and it doesn't make sense that any would exist.

I can however see a small decrease in the spool time (time to boost when already above boost threshold), this is supported the claims that an ATP3071 supposedly has better throttle response then a 20g.


Ben
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Old 02-24-2009, 04:31 PM   #66
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I got the data from Paul's car 5MT LGT (rotated, very custom, sweeet SS 35R):

1st gear whp:



2nd gear whp:



3rd gear whp:



1-3 gear boost plot:




I am extremely impressed Paul.

Has me twitching to get a new 09 and go rotated from day uno!
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Old 02-24-2009, 05:14 PM   #67
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Why does the timing spike back up right after 3000 rpms?
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Old 02-24-2009, 05:46 PM   #68
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^^ he already answered that on the first page.....

basically he just didnt notice it....with the base and DA timing maps jumping up and down the total timing isnt "discovered" until you actually hit those cells and see it in a log.

Personally i like to make the DA columns all one number, and then have all columns the same that im in for the majority of a WOT pull.

Something like this. To me it makes "visualizing" or "knowing" what the total timing is gonna be much easier. At first its a PITA to set it up since the stock ECU's have DA maps that jump up and down cell to cell, but once you do it its really easy to modify.

Code:
	0.25	0.4	0.55	0.7	0.85	1	1.15	1.3	1.45	1.6	1.75	2	2.3	2.6	2.9	3.2
800	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
1200	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
1600	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
2000	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
2400	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
2800	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
3200	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
3600	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
4000	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
4400	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
4800	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
5200	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
5600	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
6000	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
6400	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
6800	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
7200	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
7600	0	0	1.05	2.12	3.16	4.22	5.27	6.33	8.09	9.84	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95	11.95
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Old 02-24-2009, 05:53 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolRex View Post
Why does the timing spike back up right after 3000 rpms?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
^^ he already answered that on the first page.....
Correct. The real question is (and was asked by Ron): Why the dip at 2400-2600. The answer: As Load increased faster then rpm there, timing dropped. The fix would be to increase timing in those cells, although I doubt it makes any difference in resulting torque/spool. I am curious enough to test this next time I am on the dyno.

Jeff
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Old 02-24-2009, 08:56 PM   #70
zeropsi
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i <3 alqonquin homosauce

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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
The lower gear power is pretty interesting stuff and largely overlooked.

This is why i'm kinda stuck right now. I love the daily powerband of my Green, but i want more......but i dont wanna add any lag.

My stipulations are
- no cams and no headwork (just too costly to me for a DD)
- no rotated setups (i like being stealthy, tmic and stock location turbo hidden by a turbo blanket )
- So that pretty much limits my upgrading to
- 52 lb/min journal
- 52 lb/min bb
- 55-56 lb/min journal
- 55-56 lb/min bb
- 60-62 lb/min journal
- 60-62 lb/min bb

I've been eyeing the atp35 for sometime but im afraid its gonna be lagalicious.
Why not HTA Green harmony on both? The only option it looks like you missed is the Blouch Dom4.0R. It's a 58 lb/min bb.
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Old 02-24-2009, 09:47 PM   #71
Phatron
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my feelings are still up in the air about the HTA. The power numbers arent impressive on my WRX, yet.
Im maxing the MAF between 5000-5500rpm....im trying to decide which way to go now....big MAF or blow through. Ive never messed with a blow thru setup so im leaning that way just to learn about it.
once thats done and i can see how it really does on my wrx, then maybe.
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:31 PM   #72
zeropsi
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I'm in the same boat with my Tomei turbo. I dyno'ed it, and wondered if I could get more out of it. Added TGV deletes/spacers, and a hard inlet, and what do you know? My MAF is now pegged by 5500. So a big MAF is on its way. Spool's already quicker than before, so it's looking up.
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:57 PM   #73
mick_the_ginge
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Track day this weekend Jeff?
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:15 AM   #74
NSFW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Personally i like to make the DA columns all one number, and then have all columns the same that im in for the majority of a WOT pull.

Something like this. To me it makes "visualizing" or "knowing" what the total timing is gonna be much easier. At first its a PITA to set it up since the stock ECU's have DA maps that jump up and down cell to cell, but once you do it its really easy to modify.
May I interest you in....
http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic4439.html

The thing that bothered me about not tapering advance is that if IAM ever goes down, its going to retard a lot at high RPMs. For example my stock map has about 2 degrees of advance at redline, so if IAM drops to .5, that will pull 1 degree of timing. With 8 degrees of advance, that would pull 4 degrees of timing. Giving how quickly things are moving at higher RPM, that seems excessively retarded. So I wrote that thing and re-did my timing with it.

Any lumps or other quirks in the timing surface are also shown very clearly. I won't mention any names but I do especially recommend it to tuners in the PDX area. (I have no idea whether you'll be able to paste tables in from Cobb's software, though.)
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:34 AM   #75
LittleBlueGT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
May I interest you in....
http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic4439.html

The thing that bothered me about not tapering advance is that if IAM ever goes down, its going to retard a lot at high RPMs. For example my stock map has about 2 degrees of advance at redline, so if IAM drops to .5, that will pull 1 degree of timing. With 8 degrees of advance, that would pull 4 degrees of timing. Giving how quickly things are moving at higher RPM, that seems excessively retarded. So I wrote that thing and re-did my timing with it.

Any lumps or other quirks in the timing surface are also shown very clearly. I won't mention any names but I do especially recommend it to tuners in the PDX area. (I have no idea whether you'll be able to paste tables in from Cobb's software, though.)
Doesn't work so great with COBB software. At least I couldn't get it to work yet.
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