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Old 02-25-2009, 12:48 AM   #76
NSFW
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This is a bit of a tangent, but if you have a minute... copy a table using Cobb's software, and paste it into a reply in the thread on RomRaider. I'll let you know (in the RR thread) if I can make it work.

</hijack>
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:49 AM   #77
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This is an awesome thread that I have certainly gained quite a bit from and its nice to see a tuner who is willing to post some of his maps for us to view and learn from.

Just wondering Jeff, could you post up your AVCS maps? I am curious to see what kind of profile you are running. I am an intermediate-level tuner, I have a good understanding of the basics. A fellow 'expert' tuner and I will be tuning my other buddy's 18G'd '06 WRX and I just wanted to see what I could gain from looking at your AVCS profile, or if you have any input yourself.

I have a map I got from someone else running a very similar setup (18G) but I am looking for more input on how we should modify his AVCS profile.

On a side note, does the 08 STi have dual AVCS?

Thanks,

Cheers.
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Old 02-25-2009, 01:29 AM   #78
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This is a damn good thread... Jeff you are the man. Thanks for all the info, it's great to look at your tune a little more in depth.
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Old 02-25-2009, 02:59 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
I got the data from Paul's car 5MT LGT (rotated, very custom, sweeet SS 35R):

1st gear whp:



2nd gear whp:



3rd gear whp:



1-3 gear boost plot:




I am extremely impressed Paul.

Has me twitching to get a new 09 and go rotated from day uno!
Thanks for the kind words Ben. Aside from boost recovery between shifts, it feels almost as snappy down low on the street as a 20g (well almost...) I can tell you that the ATP35R on our 08 STi exhibits nearly identical boost threshold gear for gear and is even a touch livelier at part throttle/low boost. The Full-Race header/uppipe and dual AVCS definitely do their part. Interesting that the spreadsheet shows power peaking roughly 6000rpm, because on the dyno it peaks at a bit after 7000rpm and the delta from 6000rpm to 7000rpm is roughly 15-20whp.
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Old 02-25-2009, 09:45 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted WRX STi View Post
This is an awesome thread that I have certainly gained quite a bit from and its nice to see a tuner who is willing to post some of his maps for us to view and learn from.

Just wondering Jeff, could you post up your AVCS maps? I am curious to see what kind of profile you are running. I am an intermediate-level tuner, I have a good understanding of the basics. A fellow 'expert' tuner and I will be tuning my other buddy's 18G'd '06 WRX and I just wanted to see what I could gain from looking at your AVCS profile, or if you have any input yourself.

I have a map I got from someone else running a very similar setup (18G) but I am looking for more input on how we should modify his AVCS profile.

On a side note, does the 08 STi have dual AVCS?

Thanks,

Cheers.
Keith

Yes, 08 STi's have dual AVCS.
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Old 02-25-2009, 10:15 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
May I interest you in....
http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic4439.html

The thing that bothered me about not tapering advance is that if IAM ever goes down, its going to retard a lot at high RPMs. For example my stock map has about 2 degrees of advance at redline, so if IAM drops to .5, that will pull 1 degree of timing. With 8 degrees of advance, that would pull 4 degrees of timing. Giving how quickly things are moving at higher RPM, that seems excessively retarded. So I wrote that thing and re-did my timing with it.
That's a good looking tool.

One small issue I see with this recommendation is that you have not given the ecu enough timing control where it needs it the most. IMO you want to give the ecu the most control in the area's which are more likely to lead to a broken engine. If you are det'ing low down then the same issue may exist higher up where it's more likely to do damage. With your recommended taper of the correction map you have removed most of the control from the ECU.

I would rather have more timing removed up top.
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Old 02-25-2009, 10:36 AM   #82
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I <3 this thread.

Warren
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:01 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
The thing that bothered me about not tapering advance is that if IAM ever goes down, its going to retard a lot at high RPMs. For example my stock map has about 2 degrees of advance at redline, so if IAM drops to .5, that will pull 1 degree of timing. With 8 degrees of advance, that would pull 4 degrees of timing. Giving how quickly things are moving at higher RPM, that seems excessively retarded. So I wrote that thing and re-did my timing with it.
I understand your point and I understand the downfalls of the way i do things. If my IAM actually did drop to 0.5 and i pulled 6* my EGT's would probably sky rocket, but if my IAM gets to 0.5 then i'd switch to my failsafe fuel map.....so who knows where my EGT's would end up with 6* less timing but running really rich.

The thing is my IAM never drops so its not really of concern to me.

The other side of this is that you will pull 1* (FLKC) or 2* (FBKC) for 1 knock event at high rpm.....so if you have 3 knock events at high rpm you can pull 6* pretty easily.

I went out about 2 months ago and logged my old room mates 04 STi with Cobb stage2 OTS map and he was pulling 4-6* via FBKC from 4000rpm to redline.....so just because your DA map has small values at high rpm doesnt mean you're never gonna pull more than 1* up there. I'd bet money that if you started running really lean (12-12.5:1) due to a leak that you would need to pull more than 1* of timing at redline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
Any lumps or other quirks in the timing surface are also shown very clearly. I won't mention any names but I do especially recommend it to tuners in the PDX area. (I have no idea whether you'll be able to paste tables in from Cobb's software, though.)
Well, i'm not really sure what you mean by lumps....but a stock Total Timing map isnt exactly smooth either. And most tuners and most OTS maps dont touch the timing at low loads.

Last edited by Phatron; 02-25-2009 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:50 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
That's a good looking tool.

One small issue I see with this recommendation is that you have not given the ecu enough timing control where it needs it the most. IMO you want to give the ecu the most control in the area's which are more likely to lead to a broken engine. If you are det'ing low down then the same issue may exist higher up where it's more likely to do damage. With your recommended taper of the correction map you have removed most of the control from the ECU.

I would rather have more timing removed up top.
Dunno about your car, but on mine the stock advance map tapers from 6 degrees at 2400 to 2.1 degrees at 7000. I don't believe that everything that Subaru's tuners did was optimal, but I think I understand the thinking behind this, so I'm staying with it.
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:56 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Well, i'm not really sure what you mean by lumps....but a stock Total Timing map isnt exactly smooth either. And most tuners and most OTS maps dont touch the timing at low loads.
Then you understand what I mean by lumps.

The utility I linked to earlier makes it very easy to see the shapes of the base, advance, and total timing, and it makes it easy to edit the tables. For example you can edit the advance table without changing total timing, and you can edit total timing without changing the advance table.

Most customers wouldn't notice, and therefore wouldn't care about, changes in low-load timing. So of course nobody is going to spend their valuable time modifying that stuff. I'm not sure what you're getting at with that last sentence?

Last edited by NSFW; 02-25-2009 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 02-25-2009, 01:00 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
And most tuners and most OTS maps dont touch the timing at low loads.
Exactly why I use my tuner. He's anal about smoothness across the total map.
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Old 02-25-2009, 01:23 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
Then you understand what I mean by lumps.

The utility I linked to earlier makes it very easy to see the shapes of the base, advance, and total timing, and it makes it easy to edit the tables. For example you can edit the advance table without changing total timing, and you can edit total timing without changing the advance table.

Most customers wouldn't notice, and therefore wouldn't care about, changes in low-load timing. So of course nobody is going to spend their valuable time modifying that stuff. I'm not sure what you're getting at with that last sentence?
Well, the "lumps" are in the stock rom for a reason. All this stuff can be seen with airboys spreadsheet too.

the stock maps have plateaus in several knock prone spots (1 where the avcs is shutting off and 1 where the per cylinder timing compensations are turning off). The plateaus cause the timing curves to appear lumpy.

IMO, the subaru tuners knew what they were doing. The timing maps have to look like that for a reason.
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Old 02-25-2009, 07:22 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalLGT View Post
Interesting that the spreadsheet shows power peaking roughly 6000rpm, because on the dyno it peaks at a bit after 7000rpm and the delta from 6000rpm to 7000rpm is roughly 15-20whp.

2nd gear went to well over 7k, but third only went to 6300 rpm.

3rd would show it better, as there is better resolution.

Send me a third gear log til 8k and I bet it will look pretty close to the dyno.

FWIW how close are the graphs (delta %) vs your dyno-jet? 6-9% off?
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Old 02-25-2009, 09:02 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
Then you understand what I mean by lumps.
For those that dont use these tools, here's what we're talking about.


Here is a total timing plot done by a shop that posts in PPB. The rom was sent to me by the customer.




Here is one of mine, not saying its right....buts its pretty

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Old 02-26-2009, 12:56 AM   #90
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Boy, it took me a while to wrap my head around those graphs but once I turned my head sideways it all came together.
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Old 02-26-2009, 01:06 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
2nd gear went to well over 7k, but third only went to 6300 rpm.

3rd would show it better, as there is better resolution.

Send me a third gear log til 8k and I bet it will look pretty close to the dyno.

FWIW how close are the graphs (delta %) vs your dyno-jet? 6-9% off?
Assuming that the power kept on going up as it should to past 7K rpm the delta was right in that range. I'll pull another log for you in the next couple days. 3rd gear all the way to 8K is IIRC about 110 mph, so I'll need to make sure some of the local constabulary isn't around when I do that on a surface street by my house or the shop Don't feel like spending the night in jail
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Old 02-26-2009, 02:38 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flycaster View Post
Boy, it took me a while to wrap my head around those graphs but once I turned my head sideways it all came together.
yeah...there not too easy to read.

PS: I might be gone soon boys and girls. I got 8 points for posting about my horrible experience with CSS. I actually got 5 points for "inappropriate content" for posting my experience with them in a vendor review thread......weaksauce.

personally i think this should get post of the year

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...postcount=2420
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Old 02-26-2009, 03:18 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flycaster View Post
Boy, it took me a while to wrap my head around those graphs but once I turned my head sideways it all came together.
The most annoying thing about RomRaider is the way it shows tables. Origin in the upper-left? RPM on the vertical axis? If someone writes a tuning app that puts RPM on the horizontal axis and the origin in the lower left, as god intended, I'll switch in a heartbeat.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:47 AM   #94
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^^ ?? im lost. every ecu/program i've ever used (AP,ecutek,romraider, ecuflash, UTEC) show the tables the exact same way.

Or did you mean the way Excel shows the tables, not romraider? Those timing graphs I posted are from excel, not romraider.
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Old 02-26-2009, 01:31 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
every ecu/program i've ever used (AP,ecutek,romraider, ecuflash, UTEC) show the tables the exact same way..


I guess it's only a matter of time before dyno plots start showing up with RPM on the vertical axis (0 at the top, redline at the bottom) and horsepower on the horizontal.
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Old 03-29-2009, 05:23 PM   #96
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sponaugle wrote:

Quote:
I'll find a good one to compare and post back. Stage 2s are usually in the 280 range, with a few really good ones in the 300ish range. Actually I can dig up my own stage 2 graphs from this car.
It would be good to see a comparison dyno graph of this pump gas GT30 tune overlaid with a Stage 2 on your dyno. Does the GT30 kit give up much below 3500rpm to a Stage 2 car?
Was your original '08 shortblock not up to the task of handling this much power?


Quote:
At 22 psi, I suspect the 76 will be a bit more efficient, which is good for pump fuel. If anything the larger compressor is a benifit on pump more then race fuel.
Can you please shed more light on this? Do you think the 76 makes more power at 21psi on pump gas than the 71 would? Even on Cali 91 octane? I always thought the smaller 71 would be more efficient below 25psi.Is there any advantage to using the smaller GT3071?


Quote:
This GR kit was the first one Jeff Perrin made, as we did it for the Subiesport article in April of 08. I think they have the GR kits out now...
Do you have any pics of the kit installed on your car?

One more for you --- what is the big advantage to running Speed Density on this set up?

Thanks
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Old 03-30-2009, 05:21 PM   #97
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This thread rules!!
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Old 03-30-2009, 09:29 PM   #98
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Any AVCS info?
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:37 AM   #99
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i havent been on nasioc for long time, but very surprise that US premium are only 92 octane. unlike here in oz, premium octane are 98!!!
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Old 03-31-2009, 03:31 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirul View Post
i havent been on nasioc for long time, but very surprise that US premium are only 92 octane. unlike here in oz, premium octane are 98!!!
if i'm correct, your 98 is comparable to our 93-94
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