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Old 03-31-2009, 07:40 AM   #101
mls1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirul View Post
i havent been on nasioc for long time, but very surprise that US premium are only 92 octane. unlike here in oz, premium octane are 98!!!

It's 93 in TEXAS.
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Old 03-31-2009, 10:09 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oversteer View Post
sponaugle wrote:



It would be good to see a comparison dyno graph of this pump gas GT30 tune overlaid with a Stage 2 on your dyno. Does the GT30 kit give up much below 3500rpm to a Stage 2 car?
Was your original '08 shortblock not up to the task of handling this much power?




Can you please shed more light on this? Do you think the 76 makes more power at 21psi on pump gas than the 71 would? Even on Cali 91 octane? I always thought the smaller 71 would be more efficient below 25psi.Is there any advantage to using the smaller GT3071?




Do you have any pics of the kit installed on your car?

One more for you --- what is the big advantage to running Speed Density on this set up?

Thanks
good questions!
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Old 03-31-2009, 04:34 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oversteer View Post
sponaugle wrote:
It would be good to see a comparison dyno graph of this pump gas GT30 tune overlaid with a Stage 2 on your dyno. Does the GT30 kit give up much below 3500rpm to a Stage 2 car?
Was your original '08 shortblock not up to the task of handling this much power?
I did post an overlay of Stage 2 vs the GT30 (Post #30)


At 3000 rpm the Stage 2 car has more then a 60lb-ft advantage.

My original shortblock with the stock pistons was disposed of in December of 07. (yes, I have distiniction of breaking the very first 08 STI in the US).

I quickly rebuilt that shortblock with CPs, but ended up splitting the sleeve playing around with meth spray and 27psi. It now has a new case/crank and Weisco pistons.

Can you please shed more light on this? Do you think the 76 makes more power at 21psi on pump gas than the 71 would? Even on Cali 91 octane? I always thought the smaller 71 would be more efficient below 25psi.Is there any advantage to using the smaller GT3071?

Looking at the compressor maps, 22psi at 6500 rpm (near the hp peak) would be something around 42-43 lb/min @ 2.5PR (1.5psi pressure drop). Looking at the GT3071 comp map that nets about ~70% efficiency, and is pretty close to the edge of the map. Using the 3076 nets closer to >74%, and has more headroom.





This doesn't mean you can't get good power with the 3071, but it might be a but better with the 3076. If you were to reduce your HP goals, they would quickly be closer.

Do you have any pics of the kit installed on your car?

One more for you --- what is the big advantage to running Speed Density on this set up?

Thanks
[/quote]

I'll get a few pictures, as well as a good description of the SD advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirul View Post
i havent been on nasioc for long time, but very surprise that US premium are only 92 octane. unlike here in oz, premium octane are 98!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuke209 View Post
if i'm correct, your 98 is comparable to our 93-94
As mentioned in many other places, the US octane is based on RON+MON)/ 2, while fuel is Aus and Europe is often sold as measured by RON only. This is why a 98 RON fuel would be close to a 93-94 R+M/2 fuel.

Jeff
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Old 03-31-2009, 05:00 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Any AVCS info?

Yes sir: Here are the maps I am running right now:





Note the load col is 2.95, so under boost this is on the rightmost column.

Jeff Sponaugle
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Old 03-31-2009, 06:06 PM   #105
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My intake avcs is ~10* higher than yours (35* at 3000rpm) and goes to 0* at 6000-6200rpm.

did you play with yours at all, or are those stock?
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Old 03-31-2009, 06:11 PM   #106
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This is my favorite thread***
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:11 PM   #107
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Thanks man.

Have you done much in the way of AVCS testing?
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:47 PM   #108
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Props to Jeff for sharing his tuning knowledge. If only it wasn't the other coast I'd be there to have my tune improved!
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Old 03-31-2009, 09:12 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
My intake avcs is ~10* higher than yours (35* at 3000rpm) and goes to 0* at 6000-6200rpm.

did you play with yours at all, or are those stock?
So is mine, but don't forget about the exhaust AVCS (which neither of us have). Those are not even close to stock values on either table and are quite similar to what I have settled for 08-09 STI's that I tune with similar size turbos (I do run a bit more intake advance throughout the rev range).
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Old 04-18-2009, 02:50 AM   #110
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How's the car doin? I saw you drive past me today.
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:26 PM   #111
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Do you guys leave the per cylinder compensations alone? I tried searching and searching to see if anyone has come to a conclusion yet.

What I picked up was: It could be...

-Un-Equal subaru header design / backpressure etc
-Intake manifold flow discrepencies
-Make the cylinders closest to knock sensors knock sooner due to the knock sensor having a hard time distinguishing between engine noise/real knock

- I thought that maybe it could be due to the inefficiencies of the stock turbo, running out of steam as it gets up and past 6000rpm. It decreases timing, and as it gets higher it re advances it. Subaru engineers could have re advanced it because you're not able to run 20 psi at 6800 rpm with the stock turbo.

Any thoughts on this with larger snails such as a 3076R?


Isaac
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Old 04-29-2009, 10:51 PM   #112
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Sponaugle ... great thread, thank-you for sharing this info.
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Old 05-06-2009, 11:32 PM   #113
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Update:

I decided it was time to do a bit more tuning (in preparation for a Cosworth Intake Manifold Iíll be testing next week). I also wanted to continue my investigation of tuning the Intake and Exhaust Cam AVCS.

I started out with the Stock AVCS, then ran thru about 15 different configurations. Since each of these changes requires a reflash, and after each change I did at least three pulls (with careful attention to timing between pulls as temperature of the header has a huge effect on spoolup). All in all I did about 70 dyno pulls.

To help in consistency with the pulls, I ran all the pulls in S-mode, which in my map is a 19-20psi map. I also wanted a chance to fine tune the new Deastchworks 1000cc Top Feed Injectors. (They should be available now, this was a beta test set I got last week).

Mod list is as per the first post with the exception that I now have DW1000 injectors.

To remind everyone as to the Stock 08 AVCS maps, here is a shot of the Intake and Exhaust Cam maps as per the stock 08 Rom:




Here is a quick look at the combined HP results of 8 different AVCS settings compared to stock:



You can spot that with AVCS 7 and 8, the gains up top and in the midrange are noticeable. If we zoom in to the midrange boost onset section:



Here you can see how the AVCS1 settings I started out with are the worst, and the AVCS7 has the best mid range gain. The stock AVCS settings are represented by the darker blue line, and it is midrange in this graph. Looking at the upper end range:



The primary changes at the high end is with the Exhaust AVCS. The lowest performing runs were with the exhaust AVCS at 10 degrees. I tried running less retard as this would be a setting with the least overlap (actually negative overlap). However the advance of the exhaust cam much have created a condition where the valve opens too early reducing power at higher rpm.

The best power was with AVCS map 7 and 8, which had about 20 degrees of retard.



Boost is similar at higher RPM. It is interesting to see the difference in power with the same boost. ( Hello VE )

Here is a plot of the Intake and Exhaust Cams, as well as the total overlap.





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Old 05-06-2009, 11:33 PM   #114
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After doing all of the runs, I stuck with AVCS Map 8. If we look at a comparison of this to the stock map we can see how gains are made.



Here is a comparison of the entire pull, AVCS Map 8 vs Stock. The new map has gains across the entire power band. If we zoom in the midrange:



We can see gains from 3400 to 4600 rpm, the primary area where I added the most AVCS advance and retard.



At the high end the changes made a difference, which is interesting given that the exhaust AVCS is almost the same (about 20 degrees in my map, 17 in the stock). The logs show very similar AVCS values, but it is possible changes earlier in the pull made some difference. Consider the boost:



Boost is the same, but the power difference is about 8hp. That is quite a bit considering no other tuning changes were made. I did several pulls with the final map and the power was the same, about 5-8hp more then with the stock AVCS.



Looking at the Intake Cam advance we can see at the low end the intake avcs has been significantly advanced, but rolloff up top has been increased.



Exhaust AVCS is a bit wider and taller, especially in the area where the GT30 is spooling up.



Total Cam overlap is obviously greater in the midrange by a lot. Consider that this total overlap would correspond to that same amount of Intake AVCS on the older 04-07 STIs. 43 degrees peak overlap, and a much broader curve with a faster falloff.

Ending with this map, here is a datalog of the run from the above graphs:


Last edited by sponaugle; 10-10-2009 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 05-06-2009, 11:34 PM   #115
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Last but not least, here are the maps from this setup:







Here are the cam maps. I'll call these 'SponaugleAVCS 1.0'.






Yes, there is a lot of data here to digest. I still need a few days to do some more refinement, then I will compose a "2.0" map and test it out.
On the street, the car feels better without question. Me likey.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
Research Calibrator
Surgeline Tuning

Last edited by sponaugle; 05-06-2009 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 05-06-2009, 11:46 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Thanks man.

Have you done much in the way of AVCS testing?
Just a little.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDagen View Post
This is my favorite thread***
Thank you! This research stuff is the most fun. I really wish I had more time to do more of it.

I think this is the most number of graphs I have posted in a single post. My file server with all of the stuff I have posted over the years is getting pretty large. Perhaps I'll make a 'best of sponaugle' post someday with it all together.

Jeff

Last edited by sponaugle; 05-06-2009 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 05-06-2009, 11:47 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalLGT View Post
So is mine, but don't forget about the exhaust AVCS (which neither of us have). Those are not even close to stock values on either table and are quite similar to what I have settled for 08-09 STI's that I tune with similar size turbos (I do run a bit more intake advance throughout the rev range).
And sure enough, a bit more in the midrange helped out! I still want to try moving the intake and exhaust around a bit more to see if I can get a later exhuast opening. So many thing to try with 2 3D tables.

Jeff
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Old 05-07-2009, 01:38 AM   #118
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Oops.. Forgot one image, which is just the primary timing map. As per the conversation a few pages back, I cleaned up the table a bit. I smoothed out the low areas (even ones I don't hit), and corrected a bit of wobble at medium boost.

Enjoy

Jeff
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Old 05-08-2009, 12:48 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
And sure enough, a bit more in the midrange helped out! I still want to try moving the intake and exhaust around a bit more to see if I can get a later exhuast opening. So many thing to try with 2 3D tables.

Jeff
Indeed it does I do find it quite remarkable that both you and I arrived at VERY similar AVCS profiles for a turbos in the same size range. I'd do more AVCS tuning on the 08's, but it is such a PITA with having to reflash that once I found a few profiles that work well, I've just stuck with them.
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Old 05-08-2009, 01:45 AM   #120
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Jeff:

Have you used headers on your car? Would you recommend them? Any ideas?
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Old 05-08-2009, 01:53 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Jeff:

Have you used headers on your car? Would you recommend them? Any ideas?
My car has Perrin headers, and they work well. There have been a few threads with direct comparisons with reasonable results. If you track the car you have to be carful about wrapping them however.

Jeff
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Old 05-08-2009, 01:59 PM   #122
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Jeff,

Can you plot your engine load, total ignition timing, and boost pressure (23psi) vs rpm?

I would like to compare it to what I am running currently.

Thanks,

Jonathon

EDIT: I also have perrin headers and absolutely love them. They are uncoated and unwrapped. My headers have evidence of slippage at the slip joint, but no exhaust leakage evidence. I think they work great and sound awesome. Just my $0.02
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Old 05-08-2009, 02:30 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wittmer25 View Post
Jeff,

Can you plot your engine load, total ignition timing, and boost pressure (23psi) vs rpm?

I would like to compare it to what I am running currently.

Thanks,

Jonathon

EDIT: I also have perrin headers and absolutely love them. They are uncoated and unwrapped. My headers have evidence of slippage at the slip joint, but no exhaust leakage evidence. I think they work great and sound awesome. Just my $0.02


Boost is as the above dyno plot, as the relative boost I logged gets pegged as soon as you get on boost. Load is also limited at 4.00, a limit which is fixed in the next rev of the software.

Jeff
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Old 05-08-2009, 04:32 PM   #124
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Jeff
What has changed between the tune on the first page and the current one, besides AVCS? HP has gone from 37x to 42x. The data for the AVCS testing at 20psi didn't show much change in the mid-range.

As others have mentioned, thanks for sharing your data.
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Old 05-08-2009, 05:03 PM   #125
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What are you guys doing with Exhaust Cam Angle A???? Intake A and B are the same, but Exhaust A and B are different tables on my car.
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