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Old 05-08-2009, 06:26 PM   #126
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Thanks for all the AVCS maps... you've definitely done quite a bit of testing, and I think it is to everyones advantage! Thanks for sharing your data with us, and keep up the excellent work!
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Old 05-08-2009, 07:59 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tronner View Post
What are you guys doing with Exhaust Cam Angle A???? Intake A and B are the same, but Exhaust A and B are different tables on my car.
Exhaust A is only used under very light load conditions. I change some of the values in the low load zones to aid in making the car a bit smoother as it interpolates between Exhaust A and B, but you don't need to change a thing in the higher load zones because the table is not being looked at then.
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:14 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airboy View Post
Jeff
What has changed between the tune on the first page and the current one, besides AVCS? HP has gone from 37x to 42x. The data for the AVCS testing at 20psi didn't show much change in the mid-range.

As others have mentioned, thanks for sharing your data.
More timing and more boost.. Actually more boost then the difference in the graphs, as the first graphs are with the boost as seen in the ECU, and the second are from the dyno boost sensor which reads just a bit lower then the in car... In my first tune boost was tapering to 21 at redline. In this tune it is 23ish, but in compartive measure it is more like 24+psi. That extra boost makes all the difference. I do have different fuel injectors now, but that doesn't really make that much of a difference. In my first tune, I had exhaust AVCS values around 13 up top, thinking that would make things better. Little did I know that it would make such a big difference. While I was on the dyno the changes in the midrange AVCS seemed to also effect the upper end. I suspect some kind of heat or contamination effect, as when I got the AVCS dialed in well in the midrange, the upper end power jumped 5-10hp and it was less knock prone.

I have some pulls from the first tune that were in the 385-388 range, but I chose a lower one that was a bit more representative. All in all, gaining 30+ish hp from 3psi is pretty good given the size of the turbo. I did have a few runs that boosted even more (to 25ish), but didn't make much more torque, so I assume I am at a good end spot in terms of boost.

EDIT: I take that back.. there is one other change I forgot about. I have a 1 cat downpipe now, vs a 2 cat downpipe before. I knew there was something else I had changed.

I have not driven this config on the street much, so I am curious to see how the boost/timing holds up on pump fuel in real street driving. Sometimes tunes on the dyno can be optomistic compared to what can run well on the street. I'd be happy with a good 390-400whp on the street.

Jeff

Last edited by sponaugle; 05-08-2009 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:49 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post

EDIT: I take that back.. there is one other change I forgot about. I have a 1 cat downpipe now, vs a 2 cat downpipe before. I knew there was something else I had changed.

Jeff
Isn't the Perrin GT30 Rotated downpipe catless? How is it that you have a cat or two in your system?

Can you post pics of your engine/turbo/intercooler/exhaust package installed?
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Old 05-09-2009, 12:47 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oversteer View Post
Isn't the Perrin GT30 Rotated downpipe catless? How is it that you have a cat or two in your system?

Can you post pics of your engine/turbo/intercooler/exhaust package installed?
I have a custom one-of.. well more like first off.. Perrin kit. Jeff Perrin and I put it together back when the 08 first came out, then swapped out the downpipe. Although I think the new Perrin kits have cats. I'll have to double check. Certtainly I can take a few pics.

Jeff
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Old 05-09-2009, 06:54 PM   #131
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Thanks for sharing those tables Jeff! That's really cool of you.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:14 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
I have a custom one-of.. well more like first off.. Perrin kit. Jeff Perrin and I put it together back when the 08 first came out, then swapped out the downpipe. Although I think the new Perrin kits have cats. I'll have to double check. Certtainly I can take a few pics.

Jeff
Interesting. The Perrin website doesn't mention a cat in their 2008 STI GT30 kit. Have you test the power number of 2 cats vs 1 cat vs catless?

Please post some engine bay and exhaust pics for all the voyeurs in the group
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Old 05-24-2009, 03:33 AM   #133
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Jeff,
Thanks for posting this info, I'm currently waiting on AMS to build my Tial GT30R .63 rotated kit with a FMIC (I'm deployed). I won't have headers, but I hope to be near the 380-400 tq/hp realm with this setup all while minimizing spool, and it looks like I might get close judging from your data. I can only hope they put an inkling as much effort into tuning their subies.

Do you know if the speed density tuning made it's way to all the Cobb "pro" tuners yet? I don't think AMS uses the Pro series software, so I might have to get somebody else to set me up with speed density. Thanks again for all your insight. You sir, are a genius.

Russ
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:34 PM   #134
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Any updates, this is still the best 380ish whp DD set-up I have seen?
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Old 10-02-2009, 02:14 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Any updates, this is still the best 380ish whp DD set-up I have seen?

Sorry for not posting back sooner... it has been a busy summer.

Things have been running well, however I did have an interesting problem pop up. About a month ago I noticed things didn't seem as quick as usual. Timing didn't hold as well, and the car seemed more knock prone. After about 2 weeks I noticed my AFRs were getting richer. It took over 2% change to the MAF to get things back in line.

After about a week more like this, things got a lot slower. I popped on the dyno and at 20PSI I was making about 285whp. Hmm.. The car was also very quiet.

Clearly my cat had clogged up somehow. I have a single cat downpipe right now (had 2 cats originally). I pulled the downpipe off and sure enough the cat was broken and floating around, as well as a bit melted. I pulled the cat material out and put the pipe back on. Here is a quick 4th gear pull:



and



As you can see compared to my previous graphs, spoolup is a bit better now. With my agressive AVCS maps, I can get this GT3076R (.63) at 15 lbs just before 3000 rpm, and I touch 20psi at 3462rpm. As far as I have seen that is one of the faster rotated Garrett 3076R spoolup setups. I noticed I am hitting 70% duty cycle on the injectors. I have the DW 1000cs, so I imagine in my S# map at 22-23psi I'll be a bit closer to 85%. Still plently of headroom for a safe map.

If I have a chance I'll do a bit of fine tuning on the dyno. I have a new cat section I'll weld back in this week.

As a daily driver it works well.. I have completly worn out my 275/40R18 KDWs, so I'll replace those this week.. and the brake pads and rotors are also ready for replacement. I am at about 30k miles, with about 28k of that on the GT30R.

I did do a quick compression test, and all 4 cyls are right about 135 warm, and the motor sounds great.... althoiugh a bit like a diesel when cold.

After the last year driving to work in the rain/snow and nice weather, I'd give this DD setup a gold star. It is fun to drive, great power, and all around good.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle

Last edited by sponaugle; 10-02-2009 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 10-02-2009, 02:26 PM   #136
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Damn! That spool time is incredible. It must be quite a neck snapper when it hits.

Congrats Jeff!

Brandon
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Old 10-02-2009, 02:28 PM   #137
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nice.

how would you compare a stock location atp3076 w/ tmic to your setup?

also, it still looks like your timing is "lumpy" below 3000rpm.

Is the speed density stuff past the beta testing phase yet?

Does the use of speed density require any additional sensors or is it just the use of additional maps in the ecu?
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Old 10-02-2009, 02:49 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
nice.

how would you compare a stock location atp3076 w/ tmic to your setup?

also, it still looks like your timing is "lumpy" below 3000rpm.

Is the speed density stuff past the beta testing phase yet?

Does the use of speed density require any additional sensors or is it just the use of additional maps in the ecu?
Good question... I'm not exactly sure since I have not done a stock location with my exact setup... but I think Tim has. I'll get some runs on the dyno with same load to compare with a stock location one. Given the difference in the exhaust housing I suspect it will be different.

The timing has a flat spot from 2600 to 2800 rpm as boost climbs from 7psi to 10psi, but this flat timing doesn't seem to make a difference. I generally don't judge things by the timing plot looking 'nice'. I can certainly try to slope it more there, but I suspect it will not make a difference. The peak at 2400 is higher then perhaps it needs to be.

The speed density it still a beta product, although I have had pretty good luck with it ove the last 6 months or so. I'll check and see what the offical release plan is.. It is a different build of the Protuner software and a different Rom, so it might stay in a special state for some time. I'll check and get back to you.

You can use SD with the factory map sensor, as long as you don't go past the edge of the sensor. I would not run a car above 23-24psi without first changing sensors. I have an AEM 3.5bar sensor on the car, which is nice as it allows me to use the factory boost control at higher boost levels. To more directly answer the question, there are a few additional maps in the ECU, and that is it.

Cheers!

Jeff Sponaugle
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:30 PM   #139
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I can't remember, stock 08 STI fuel pump still?

What do you think about your exact set-up but with OEM TMIC?
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Old 10-04-2009, 01:28 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
I can't remember, stock 08 STI fuel pump still?

What do you think about your exact set-up but with OEM TMIC?
Nope.. Walbro 255HP in the bucket. I didn't look at fuel pressure during the runs, but I will... I suspect it will not hold if I get the injectors much above 80% duty cycle.

I am sure my setup would work with the TMIC, but the heaksoak problem would be the biggest concern. That TMIC gets pretty toasty, even with the stock turbo. At the lower boost levels it would probably work well, but above 20psi things heat up. If you are in a slightly cooler climate it might also be more tenable.

With the .63 housing, the off throttle to on throttle response is pretty good, given it is a larger turbo the stock.

Cheers,

Jeff
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Old 10-04-2009, 02:06 PM   #141
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A lot of the information in this thread is still over my head, though I am learning little bits at a time. I really dig your car Jeff. I will continue to pay attention to what you and Tim have to say as I value the experience you have. Thank you for not only doing the work, but sharing the information so openly. Oh yeah, and thanks for the lesson about synthetic oils it was most informative albeit a bit "intense".

-Travis
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Old 10-04-2009, 06:06 PM   #142
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I am really starting to think this would work well on OEM TMIC and meth.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:01 PM   #143
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god I love this thread! Thank you Jeff!
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Old 10-06-2009, 07:14 PM   #144
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This has got to been one of the most informative threads I have read on NASIOC...PERIOD! Since you are very forth coming with REAL information, maybe you can give me some info. Have you ever had any experince with the 3082R? I have the perrin rotated kit and had a 3582R with the .82 t31 housing. I an thinking about switching to a HTA3082R with a .63 3in vband w/e85 for kicks! let me know what you think. I also have the 2.5i intake manifold on a cp piston 2.5 sti block and stock cams if that makes any difference.
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:50 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
Clearly my cat had clogged up somehow. I have a single cat downpipe right now (had 2 cats originally). I pulled the downpipe off and sure enough the cat was broken and floating around, as well as a bit melted. I pulled the cat material out and put the pipe back on. Here is a quick 4th gear pull:


As you can see compared to my previous graphs, spoolup is a bit better now. With my agressive AVCS maps, I can get this GT3076R (.63) at 15 lbs just before 3000 rpm, and I touch 20psi at 3462rpm. As far as I have seen that is one of the faster rotated Garrett 3076R spoolup setups.

Jeff, on your original 92 OCT tune (Results: 391 lb-ft, 378whp @ 22psi) how much power would you have gained by going catless? How much faster does it spool now that you are catless and can you really feel it on the street?
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Old 12-28-2009, 03:53 PM   #146
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Any updates?

I am specifically interested in what will happening to Garrett's line-up when everything changes to these newly designed comp wheels.

(ie: blouch XTr, HTA stuff, AMS has some new wheels in theirs as well)
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Old 01-12-2010, 01:19 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Any updates?
I thought I would post a small update. The cliff notes version is: It still works.

I just passed 25,000 miles on this built engine. For reference, it is a block I put together in my living room. New case, new crank, Weisco pistons, Carrillo rods, ACL bearings. I set the ring gaps super loose (looser then I should have), so I have more blow by then I would normally want. The only downside of that is my catch can system collects a bit more vapor and oil.

I was thinking while driving home today about why this engine has lasted so well, given my usual history of breaking things. 25,000 miles is not a long life for an engine, just a long life for an engine in my hands. Here is what I came up with:

On the plus side of reliability:

1: I have tuned the car on the dyno perhaps 4 or 5 times in the last 1.5 years. That has allowed me to catch some small tuning errors, as well as keep the AFRs well dialed in different temperature. I do road logging perhaps once every few weeks, and have made a few tweaks here and there.

2: I have not made very many changes over that time. I switched to bigger injectors, but that is about it. Everything else is working well, so no need to mess with it. I have 2 other cars I am always changing, so I decided to keep this on with a single setup.

Since I have 1000 cc injectors, I have headroom. Since I have headroom, the map is richer at higher boost. If I overboost, I have plenty of fuel. I also have a 5 bar map sensor. This means I have boost cut. Boost cut is a good thing.

3: I have been good with oil and oil changes. Most oil changes have been with Amsoil, some Rotella, and one Motul. I have ran a 20w50ish weight the entire time, regardless of weather. I do a compression check at each oil change, as well as clean out the boost tubes, inspect everything, check coolant, etc.

4: I have oil pressure, temp, EGT, AFR, and Boost on gauges right in my line of sight, with a conditional alarm. I always notice AFR while driving around, and if things are off, it catches my eye.

5: My oil pressure is 86psi at 7200 rpm. That is a good thing. It is a shimmed 11mm pump, with 20w50 oil.

On the minus side:

1: I drive the car nearly every day.. rain, snow, cold, hot. I remember starting up the car in 2 feet of snow in my driveway last year, as well as a number of days in the teens (which is cold for Portland). Pretty much every day seems sustained 3/4th pulls, as I live out in the country.

2: Other then the oil changes, I don't spend much more time on the car. I do check the oil level on a regular basis, but have been caught a quart low a few times.

3: Sure I have SI drive, but the car pretty much lives in S# at 23psi, 400whp.

4: I use launch control to impress my friends, and I have a lot of friends.

As far as consumables so far:

Average MPG: 14.1, a total of 1773 gallons of 92 octane gas (average cost of $3.11), or $5500.
Two sets of BFG KDW 275/40R18s, now on a third set with BFG KDW 285/35R18
One set of brake pads and rotors.

As far as the tune goes, on the street it seems to run a bit richer then on the dyno, which is a good thing. It is always around 10.9 to 11.1 at redline, and midrange perhaps a tick or two leaner. I have my accessport on the dash in eye range with knock correction displayed all the time. If I notice a tick, I investigate. Over the 1.5 years, I have tweaked timing a bit based on knock that only seems to occur in long 4th and 5th gear pulls.

The GT30R is still performing great, spool up is as good as ever.

Jeff Sponaugle
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:51 AM   #148
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Love your posts. Glad things are working good for you.

Have you done any tunes with the new aero wheels?
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Old 04-03-2010, 01:50 PM   #149
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Hope you are still watching this thread.

1) if you could choose to have the new V-band .63 housing, would you? Any experience with how they affect spool, overall flow, etc....

2) my gas is like your 90 octane gas. I run it and 50/50 alky. Do you think a 30R set-up like yours could be run on the stock block (380ish whp) for a few years, or do think it would be inevitable that it would fail? (obviously me tuning, and watching for knock fairly often)
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:22 AM   #150
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UPDATE (2 years later)

It has been two years since my last post (almost to the day), and a number of interesting things have changed.

At about 40,000 miles on this engine, all was running great. Still the same power, engine sounded good, and I managed to not blow it up by constantly tweaking it. However about 41,000 miles it started to spool slower and slower, and more significantly it started blowing a good amount of oil out of the blow-off valve. Oil consumption jumped to about 1 quart every 250 miles. I assumed it was one of two things: Bad engine or bad turbo.

Now the really interesting part… Normally I would have just pulled the turbo and the motor and started looking around. However at this particular time in my life I was supremely busy with both my company, as well as getting married, getting a new house, building a new garage/shop,etc… so I did what any good engineer would do.. nothing.

I drove the car, added oil, lots of oil, and watched as the ever increasing amount of knock occurred. The lag got worse and worse. By 45,000 miles the turbo was about as laggy as a 35R in 1.06 housing. Finally last week I got the car fully apart and looked into what was wrong. No surprise, the turbo was toast. It was covered in dark gooey oil out of the shafts and all over the inside of the housing. Boost tubes were full of oil, and the intercool was swimming in it. Kinda cool actually.

I pulled the engine out and removed the heads expecting to find inches of black residue from the oil burning.. it was pretty black, but not nearly as bad as I expected. The piston tops had some nice crusty black chuncks on them, but the side skirts were very clean and not scarred much. The bore had residue at the top of the bore, but the lower portions looked fine, especially given the abuse.

I took the block apart so I could inspect the bearings, and they were in surprisingly good shape all considering. I assumed that with some of the very massive knock events I had there would be a bit more damage. They were worn in an uneven pattern, and the off axis pattern suggest there was some oil starvation along with some pretty heavy load on a few occasions.

The rod bearings were very clean on the top, but the bottoms had distinctive wear from lots of compressive force. I’m sure many long 4th gear 400whp jaunts combined with some good detonation took its toll.

There were a few learning opportunities from this endeavor:

1: Old turbos are old, and go bad. This particular 30R has been on 5-6 different cars, and is a mid 2005 production CHRA. Lots of abuse takes its toll.
2: Blowing oil into the engine really does lower the octane. Given that I have done over 500 pulls on the dyno with this car, I know the timing and fueling very very well. With lots of oil blowby and mixture, it was pretty easy to get knocking.
3: If you are burning oil 28psi of boost really doesn’t work that well.

Now that I have the car apart, I am putting in a new shortblock, cleaned up heads, new cams, and a new turbo setup. The turbo setup is still under consideration, but it may be something with BorgWarner in the name. My good friend Jeff Perrin has a suggestion or two…. And once it is up and running, Dr Tim from Surgeline and I will be doing some very cool research projects on this car.

My apologies for my extended absence from Nasioc.. I have missed it… but I’m back now.

Last edited by sponaugle; 01-13-2012 at 02:32 AM.
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