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Old 02-25-2009, 10:35 PM   #1
ButtDyno
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Default Reminder: Keep it constructive.

There's been a lot of crap back and forth lately between the lowering-for-aesthetics crowd and the it's-too-low crowd. It seems to have been really bad over the last week.

I deserve a lot of the blame for this as I have not always been able to separate Opinion John (tm) who hates bad suspension parts from Moderator John (tm) who should be more positive and be more, er, moderate. This is bad. I am trying to fix it.

I will try to get together a longer post to try to bridge the divide, but for now, keep it clean. Instead of flaming someone you disagree with, link to some sort of resource or whatever. If you are doing something that you know will hurt the car's handling and don't care, you should expect a little bit of static but it needs to be constructive. If you don't care about the car's handling and you are just lowering it for looks, fine, just say so.

If you see any posts that are not in this spirit, please report them with the little "!" triangle. (edit: including mine! I'm not a mod anymore, so the mods in here can actually give me points if I'm being a jerk!)

I would propose rough "rules of engagement":

If you're one of the people who doesn't care about handling, is trying to do something aggressive, or wants coilovers, or whatever

Please, lay out your goals. If you are more worried about looks than handling - SAY SO! This should help people avoid getting annoyed with you. A lot of people (including me) don't understand why people would take a perfectly good Impreza and mess with the suspension geometry. And a lot of people (probably including you) don't understand why people would leave their suspension stock, or why they would spend $3K on shocks but leave the stock turbo, or why they would run the rear ride height higher... we don't have to understand each other. We should sort of respect that.

Try to avoid using the word "hater". Try to avoid freaking out. Just remember that this is the suspension/handling *technical* forum and there are a lot of folks who think that means it should be focused on making your handling better rather than fitting big tires.

You will be better off if you do some of the homework, i.e. reading the stickies, so you can understand some of the tech behind stuff here. If you don't care, okay.

Please note: this is still NOT the member's car gallery. This is not where you do pic requests.

If you're one of the people who can't understand why people want to run 215 tires on a 10" wheel while lowering their car 3" from stock just for daily use

I understand. Why would someone compromise function for aesthetics? Whatever, people do. I think this quote sums it up:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398276
Quote:
It's your car, your property. You can do anything you like with it, and better yet, you don't really have to ask anybody else if it's ok. My cousin used to throw hatchets at his car door to see if it would stick. I didn't think it was a good idea, but it's his ride.
No need to yell at them. They probably already know that what they're doing is suboptimal handling wise and don't care. You're very unlikely to change their mind. It's like getting angry at the weather.

thanks,
john
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Last edited by ButtDyno; 12-18-2009 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:11 PM   #2
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Oh man, you are gonna have your hands full. This is by far the most heated argument area on NASIOC.

I agree though. Every thread always falls into the same 3 arguments.
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:17 PM   #3
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i honestly dont see a problem.. dont know why some are getting so heated over it. so i agree with buttdyno.

if setup correctly a car lower then the some how ideal "13.5" "14.0" drop is great for handling.
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Old 02-26-2009, 12:37 AM   #4
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Just keep the flaming down. It isn't needed, and everyone has different goals for their rides. It seems if your Suby doesn't fit a certain mold that is Nasioc approved then there is alot of hate. The majority of guys that began the aggressive fitment suby movement (or whatever you call it) have some kind of track oriented background, and most of us have tracked out cars in the past or currently. I personally tracked a well-prepped Porsche 914 that I personally built. We know a thing or two about setting up a car, and we know the difference between what works driving stoplight to stoplight and what works around the track. The majority of threads I've seen in the aggressive fitment defense have noted that this isn't how you setup your car to turn good laps (being slammed). There is still debatable subjects, but this section of the forum isn't solely dedicated to track applications. The same old things don't need to be ran over again and again. It should be obvious that the vast majority of Subaru owners on Nasioc aren't tracking their cars. The percentage of people that actually need a proper track setup is farely low because others will simply never use it. It's okay if the aggressive style isn't your own. My personal style isn't 1" drops and 7.5" wide wheels, but I can still appreciate a clean ride and not hate on it. So... keep it chill!
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Old 02-26-2009, 01:32 AM   #5
williaty
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You know, why not just have a separate "Show Car" forum? It gives the people who want to really lower the cars, who want to use the wrong wheels, etc a place to collect all the knowledge they have. Also gives a single place to put stickes for those issues. Most of all, it's going to separate the handling crowd from the looks crowd. If they're not posting in the same place, they can't get into fights. They're separate goals with separate techniques. It's no different than having a NA vs 2.0L Turbo vs 2.5L Turbo powertrain forum division.
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Old 02-26-2009, 01:39 AM   #6
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^ fights will persist in any section of this forum... there isn't so many posts that it would be neccessary to have another suspension section. The "show" section idea is pretty dumb in my opinion. This section isn't dedicated solely to "track" cars. It is for general info on all sorts of related conversation. What needs to happen is for people to relax like it should be in the first place. If you have to tell a user to chill out then it's on them not the person who started the thread because that user doesn't like it and wants to be a jerk about it. This is a shared community and a free website for us to use and gather info. I don't see the need to come in any section of the forum to cause grief. If you haven't noticed the mods are doing their jobs pretty well lately.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:24 AM   #7
Dubstar112
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I agree with Butt Dyno, with the constructive part. I usually try to do my best to inform somone and not make an opinion about something. It doesnt get any better than having a crew call themselves "wrong fitment crew".. lol that should even be a clue to the newbies! No offense grippy . Mods- keep up the good work and I look forward to seeing a more informative post by Butt Dyno that would potentially quench this thirst for wrong vs right!!
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:50 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
You know, why not just have a separate "Show Car" forum? It gives the people who want to really lower the cars, who want to use the wrong wheels, etc a place to collect all the knowledge they have. Also gives a single place to put stickes for those issues. Most of all, it's going to separate the handling crowd from the looks crowd. If they're not posting in the same place, they can't get into fights. They're separate goals with separate techniques. It's no different than having a NA vs 2.0L Turbo vs 2.5L Turbo powertrain forum division.
I like this idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by grippy monkey View Post
^ fights will persist in any section of this forum... there isn't so many posts that it would be neccessary to have another suspension section. The "show" section idea is pretty dumb in my opinion. This section isn't dedicated solely to "track" cars. It is for general info on all sorts of related conversation. What needs to happen is for people to relax like it should be in the first place. If you have to tell a user to chill out then it's on them not the person who started the thread because that user doesn't like it and wants to be a jerk about it. This is a shared community and a free website for us to use and gather info. I don't see the need to come in any section of the forum to cause grief. If you haven't noticed the mods are doing their jobs pretty well lately.
There isn't that much difference between 2.5L and 2.0L forums either, yet they persist.

Also, the difference between a street prepped car and a slammed show car are pretty huge as well. Slammed cars don't give a rats ass about travel numbers, properly damped suspension, parts longevity etc...why not have a forum for them to showcase their philosophy.
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Old 02-28-2009, 06:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daishi00 View Post
I like this idea



There isn't that much difference between 2.5L and 2.0L forums either, yet they persist.

Also, the difference between a street prepped car and a slammed show car are pretty huge as well. Slammed cars don't give a rats ass about travel numbers, properly damped suspension, parts longevity etc...why not have a forum for them to showcase their philosophy.
We're not necessarily building show cars. My car's not a show car, I abuse the crap out of it. I don't devote my time to cleaning my car or finding the best subs or making a custom Gucci interior or whatever that show car people do. Just as how you draw a line between the "right way" to lower a car and the "wrong way," I make a distinction between "show cars" and "street cars" and "track cars." If anything, I'd say make a "performance" and "looks" sub-forum in the Susp. and Wheels forums. And just do a single "engine/power" and make the N/A, 2.0T, 2.5T and H6 and sub-forums of that. Also I think exterior mod/aerodynamics should be added, but that's just my wishful thinking.

Still, the ability to resolve these issues respectfully is restoring some of my faith in the internet.
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Old 03-17-2009, 12:27 AM   #10
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if only the internet were as reliable as my car
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Old 03-31-2009, 08:36 PM   #11
grippy monkey
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^ haha great post
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:23 AM   #12
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People fight over suspension set-ups?




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Old 04-26-2009, 04:55 PM   #13
midlifecrisis
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This is just like every other part of Nasioc except the Motorsport Forum. Too many people here simply can't resist attacking / criticising others.

I really like the title of this thread and I would love it if the mods posted it across all forums with the following content:
"Do not post unless it is a factual statement or a positive comment. All negative or untrue comments will be deleted and points will be issued against the poster."

Remember Thumper from the Bambi movie? His father always said:
"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

It would be great if all of these forums were as constructive as IWSTi.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:02 PM   #14
ButtDyno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midlifecrisis View Post
This is just like every other part of Nasioc except the Motorsport Forum. Too many people here simply can't resist attacking / criticising others.

I really like the title of this thread and I would love it if the mods posted it across all forums with the following content:
"Do not post unless it is a factual statement or a positive comment. All negative or untrue comments will be deleted and points will be issued against the poster."

Remember Thumper from the Bambi movie? His father always said:
"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

It would be great if all of these forums were as constructive as IWSTi.
First off - please, if you see anything that you feel is not in the spirit of helping, report it. I have less free time now than I've had in the past so I am not browsing as many random threads as usual.

Second, I think it's a little harder to separate opinion from fact (i.e. "truth") in here because suspension stuff is closer to black art than science. I'm not going to delete posts saying S-techs are great, for instance But yeah, it should stay positive. I have my weak moments too even. And if you click report post on something I post I am not going to hate you, I swear I would much rather fix it.

thanks,
john
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Old 04-30-2009, 10:02 PM   #15
midlifecrisis
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Understood John. You definitely have a thankless job here. I am definitely on your side and I appreciate your thread. I will take your request for 'reporting' to heart...even if it is you!

Best regards,
Paul
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Old 10-06-2009, 03:37 PM   #16
Evil Intentions
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Wow, a moderator who puts themself in check? ButtDyno, I am a new member here, and am thankful to be part of a community that is so focused on proper handling and correct suspension tuning, however I will not be setting up my car for this.

The looks are the priority to me given that it's a DD. Regardless, I wanted to use my first post as a thank you for being open-minded, and accepting of disenting opinions, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject of suspension. I guess many forget that there is tuning and there is personalization. Some tune for the outright performance, other's for a personalized feel and a look. Good on you for recognizing and accepting that fact.

P.S. - Just noticed your list of vehicles, and I again applaud your taste! My father is in the process of building a B-Modified '99 M3 for NASA and other track days, and I am working on the '04 WRX. Small world.

Last edited by Evil Intentions; 10-06-2009 at 03:40 PM. Reason: Additional Info. Found
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Old 10-06-2009, 04:00 PM   #17
Scooby921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Intentions View Post
Wow, a moderator who puts themself in check? ButtDyno, I am a new member here, and am thankful to be part of a community that is so focused on proper handling and correct suspension tuning, however I will not be setting up my car for this.

The looks are the priority to me given that it's a DD. Regardless, I wanted to use my first post as a thank you for being open-minded, and accepting of disenting opinions, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject of suspension. I guess many forget that there is tuning and there is personalization. Some tune for the outright performance, other's for a personalized feel and a look. Good on you for recognizing and accepting that fact.

P.S. - Just noticed your list of vehicles, and I again applaud your taste! My father is in the process of building a B-Modified '99 M3 for NASA and other track days, and I am working on the '04 WRX. Small world.
Sorry...BD retired from moderating. We still very much appreciate the days when he is able to find time and pop in with an opinion here and there, but work keeps him pretty damn busy.

No worries though...he's not the only person around these parts with a broad point of view. You'll find plenty of members, vendors, and moderators that are more than willing to help anyone and everyone find the products and parts they need to accomplish their goals with their car. But I'll give you fair warning, you'll find plenty of people who will yell, scream, throw a fit, and call you names for wanting to do anything other than build a race car.

Welcome to the forums. I'm sure I and many others look forward to lending a hand when needed.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:50 AM   #18
ButtDyno
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I still hate hardparking hellaflushness but tried not to let it affect my moderating.

Fortunately Fluffy is around to keep things family friendly!
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:55 AM   #19
Evil Intentions
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Well to each their own, right?!

Thanks for the clarification Scooby921 as to BD's moderator status. Obviously a noob here. It is refreshing to hear that other's are at least open minded enough to let alternate opinions fly and have a place to discuss ideas. I have the utmost respect for peopel who desire only the best in performance for their car, and will just have to pick and choose what works for me from their never ending r&d.

Anyway, enough babbling and back to constructive research. Thanks guys and good day.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:34 PM   #20
ButtDyno
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Bump for hopefully a new thread title
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:32 AM   #21
Scooby921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno View Post
Bump for hopefully a new thread title
No, but I'll probably include some of this or just merge this with a containment thread I'm working on. I'm planning to create a safe home for all discussion of form over function.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:44 AM   #22
ButtDyno
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:thumbup:
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Old 04-14-2011, 03:28 PM   #23
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I like it, and I don't mod my car to make other people happy - just myself. People get way to upset over what other people do with their property these days. just saying
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