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Old 05-21-2008, 11:54 AM   #1
SurfWagon
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Default 10% load tuning...knock no matter what

Car is an 02 2.0L/5speed w/TMIC; silicone hoses; pnp exhaust manifold; catted dp; SMC 50/50 injection; TD04.

I have been tuning highway cruising on the UTEC. UTEC comes on at 1750 rpms, 4% TPS, & -9 vacuum. I've been working on a lean cruise. AFRs are at 15.5 to 16.2. I had it at 17.1 for a while but wasn't noticing any real increase in mpg to warrant the change. My EGTs are around 12-12.5k F while cruising on the highway. Highest they ever get is 13.5k when romping on it.

Timing I have had as high as 43 @ 2750 rpm and 46 @3500. Then I would get random knocks (<4) at 2800 rpm. So I tried backing the timing down to 37 @ 2750 and 42 @ 3500. Now I get knocks lower at like 2500-2600-sometimes 2700. Timing in this area is around 35 @2500. These are the timing values I pulled off of the "ECU timing". The knock only comes after 25 minutes of highway driving.

The thing that confuses me is the knock is persists no matter how I change the timing and fuel...I still get a knock count of 1-4 in the 10% load in the 2500-3000 range. I have set the knock settings more sensitive, but I can't remember the numbers, but not much different than the numbers UTEC originally came with.

My question is what timing curve are people running for vacuum/cruise. I just want an idea of what other people have gotten to run safely.

Also, what AFRs have you been able to run on vacuum/cruise? I'm looking for lean values, I know that dropping it to 14.7 or lower would help drop the knock count (or atleast everything should be easier at stoich).

Thanks

This is SD mode......don't use any of these maps.....don't want to grenade your engine
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Last edited by SurfWagon; 05-22-2008 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:56 AM   #2
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Fuel Map
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
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[0.5] [-14] [-7] [-0.7] [-13] [-13] [-13] [-9] [-13] [-11] [-6]
[0.5] [-1.4] [-1.4] [-0.7] [-0.3] [-0.3] [-0.9] [-4] [-2] [-3.4] [-3]
[0.5] [-1.4] [-1.4] [-0.7] [-0.3] [-0.3] [-0.9] [-5] [-1.3] [-1.2] [-1.1]
[0.5] [-1.4] [-1.4] [-0.7] [-0.3] [-0.3] [-0.9] [-4] [-1.3] [-1.2] [-1.1]
[0.5] [-1.4] [-1.4] [-0.7] [-0.3] [-0.3] [-0.9] [-1.4] [-1.3] [-1.2] [-1.1]
[0.5] [-1.4] [-1.4] [-0.7] [-0.3] [-0.3] [-0.9] [-1.4] [-1.3] [-1.2] [-1.1]
[0.5] [-1.4] [-1.4] [-0.7] [-0.3] [-0.3] [-0.9] [-1.4] [-1.3] [-1.2] [-1.1]
[0] [-1.4] [-1.4] [-0.7] [-0.3] [-0.3] [-0.9] [-1.4] [-1.3] [-1.2] [-1.1]
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[0] [-1.1] [-1.1] [-26] [0.3] [0.3] [0] [-0.3] [-0.3] [-0.3] [-0.3]
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Timing Map
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100]
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[20] [46] [32] [28] [24] [19] [17] [15] [14] [14] [14]
[20] [46] [32] [28] [23] [20] [17] [15] [14] [14] [14]
[21] [46] [32] [29] [24] [21] [18] [15] [14] [14] [14]
[-100] [44] [34] [29] [24] [22] [18] [16] [14] [14] [14]
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[-100] [44] [36] [28] [24] [24] [22] [18] [15] [16] [17]
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[-100] [25] [25] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23] [22] [22]

0% timing is to stop the shift knock
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:57 AM   #3
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I fail with tuning. But here is my excuse for everything with timing.

Timing belt. Or knock sensor?
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:01 PM   #4
SurfWagon
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Previous aggressive timing
Timing Map
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100]
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[21] [46] [32] [29] [24] [21] [18] [15] [14] [14] [14]
[-100] [44] [34] [29] [24] [22] [18] [16] [14] [14] [14]
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[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100]
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:04 PM   #5
SurfWagon
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The random single counts don't really cause a stutter in the car. Any higher (like a couple in a row) causes a stutter, maybe just from the ecu dropping the timing.

Timing belt has 56k on it. The knock sensor i have no idea about!
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:04 PM   #6
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14.7 is the target for cruise & idle. Only time you should see leaner conditions is off-throttle. Not sure why under cruise you're targeting 17.1 but that's likely the obvious source of your problem. Maybe you could post a log of the event; that would help too. You can chart/graph (or eyeball) the ECU timing and verify knock.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfWagon View Post
The random single counts don't really cause a stutter in the car. Any higher (like a couple in a row) causes a stutter, maybe just from the ecu dropping the timing.

Timing belt has 56k on it. The knock sensor i have no idea about!
That all depends on what you have the UTEC configured to pull timing at (knock count?). I keep mine at 1 as you should never see knock on a quality tune.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:07 PM   #8
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Leaner usually equalls better fuel economy and lower EGTs.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:10 PM   #9
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You see lower EGT's with a leaner cruise?
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfWagon View Post
Leaner usually equalls better fuel economy and lower EGTs.
So?

I’m not making this number up. It’s well known, documented, and a practice of the tuning industry for Subaru’s that the target AFR for the turbo platform is 14.7afr.

Choose to deviate from that point and you end up with issue like those you’re experiencing.

Don’t shoot the messenger. I'm not the author of this fundamental information, just sharing it.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:21 PM   #11
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I appreciate the quick replies. And I understand the info you are giving me is correct.

I fully know that they use 14.7 from the factory. However, most cars can run leaner (including turbo subarus) at cruise to gain economy. Other members on here have done it in the past and run 17.1. Stoich is only a mathmatical concept anyways because true complete combustion can vary along the AFR curve. Best lean power generally occurs at 16.2 and peak power usually at 12.5. These are from multiple AFR curves posted here and in the hot rodding community.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:49 PM   #12
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Old 05-21-2008, 05:59 PM   #13
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richin it up a bit... atleast to 15.5, lower timing by around 5 points in the problem zone... and forget it
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:02 PM   #14
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Well, I'll make a map that does something like that and try it out tonight.

Does anyone have a good timing curve for low load...ie vacuum?

Also, does anyone know if leaner AFR need to advanced more (timing wise) to accomplish complete burn? I'm just wondering if it is so, because the car feels better with more timing in the leaner areas. There is less stuttering and bucking.
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:23 PM   #15
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What I tried last night was to use 36-38 degrees from 1750-3250 and then ramp up to 44 for the rest of the rpm range. I had to drop the 3000 point down to 37 because I was still getting knock. So it looks kind of weird going from 36-37-37-38-38-37-38-42-44.

AFR is 16.2 for all points except 3000rpm which is at 15.5.

I got these flat timing numbers from looking at some post by opensource people that recorded stock timing numbers. The off boost still feels good and will lug around at 1750 just fine without feeling absolutely dead. I'll have to see how it feels after today's heat....South Florida...uggh
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Old 03-03-2009, 02:09 PM   #16
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Just wanted to put an update that all of my problems were solved my moving to SD and changing the parameters of when the change fro 0% to 10% occurred. The problem was that I was running too much timing at 0% in the 3krpm range. When I would bounce in and out of UTEC/ECU I woud get a single knock count. By setting the 0% column to 20-29 timing in the 2-3.5krpm range I completely lost knock. My 0% column is set at -6psi. I run 15.2-17.1 relative AFR (I have maps for e85 and gas) at 10% and have no problems at all. Get decent mileage and start dumping fuel in @ 20%. So for everyone that thinks 14.7 is the highest AFR you can go......you're wrong....Just have to have the correct parameters which I didn't....trial and error!
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:26 AM   #17
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Have you done any MPG calculations before and after? How much have you improved?
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Old 03-06-2009, 07:26 PM   #18
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Unfortunately no hard calculations. I also switched to e85 after a month of runing properly. I do have to say I am getting 20% less mpgs w/e85 than with gas. That's not too bad considering you lose 25-30% energy density when moving from gas to e85. Overall, you don't gain too much by running lean, but you lose a lot by running rich.
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Old 03-07-2009, 02:50 PM   #19
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I am also curious about your cruising mpg. Mine fairly sucks and I would like to improve it if possible....
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Old 03-07-2009, 06:02 PM   #20
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On gas, on I-95 @ 65-70 mph I get 32-33mpg, when we do 80mph we get 28mpg. Big drop. So now i'm working on a flat underbody panel.
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Old 03-07-2009, 07:49 PM   #21
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On E85 I get almost exactly HALF that!
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Old 03-07-2009, 10:07 PM   #22
SurfWagon
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Those were gas (E10) numbers. E85 mixed driving usually looks closer to 22-24 mpg
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Old 03-08-2009, 12:04 AM   #23
bcblues
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I'd settle....

One thing I have noticed in my RR/ECU map is that while at cruise, I am seeing about 18% WDC. I have not changed this to test, but I wonder if this is to increase mpg, or if it is for emissions (although that seems counter-intuitive in my mind as it would tend to increase cylinder scavenging....
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Old 03-11-2009, 04:35 PM   #24
SurfWagon
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that's interesting. Never thought about messing with WDC at cruise. I agree with your logic too, but I guess I need to play with it and see what I can eek out of it. I got my kevlar in last week, just have to get time to make the panels!
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