Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday August 31, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Motorsports > Autocross

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-05-2009, 05:03 PM   #1
NJ 2.5RS
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 85606
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NJ
Vehicle:
2002 2.5 RS
Blue Ridge Pearl

Default Advice for autocrossing in the rain

Ive been autocrossing for 4+ years and have run in the rain a few times. However this year I made the jump from a strut and spring combo to adjustable coilovers. While the car has been amazing Im noticing the tail end likes to come around much easier than it use to when its wet out and Im not quite sure what to do with it. Here is my set up

10k F 8K R
- 2.5 F - 1.5 R
22mm FSB 24mm RSB
0 Toe all around
4 deg caster
Running RE070s at 37 PSI all around

It looks like the first autocross of the year will be in the wet and I am looking for some advice on some technique. And before anyone says anything about the sway bars I have an RS so sizing is restricted. Only the rear is adjustable from 22 to 24mm. Im doing the best with what I have. Im sure I will be flamed and if need be just point me to the right thread to read because I havent found it on my own.

Thanks Jake
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
NJ 2.5RS is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 03-05-2009, 05:08 PM   #2
Michael Yount
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 203494
Join Date: Feb 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Charlotte, NC
Default

Soften or disconnect the rear sway bar to make it less tail happy in the rain. Or increased front/decrease rear tire pressure. You'll have to play with it to see how those kinds of changes interact with your driving preference. When I was road racing SCCA, if we knew the race/practice/qualifying was gonna be in the rain, I'd disconnect one side of my rear sway bar (rear drive car). That made it much less tail happy in the wet. Problem is, about half the time, the rain came while we were on the track. All you can do then is clean your shorts afterwards.
Michael Yount is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 06:24 PM   #3
digitalseance
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 104400
Join Date: Jan 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: SouthSide Jax, FL
Vehicle:
169k mile race car
Black

Default

I'd say dial back the rear shocks a click (if it's a 5 clicker) and change the bar to the softest position and then lower air pressure. I did this at an NT before my co-driver took his last run and he won the class because of it.
digitalseance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 06:32 PM   #4
Mavrik
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 90347
Join Date: Jul 2005
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Anchorage AK
Vehicle:
2013 BRZ & Imp 2.5RS
Yamaha FZ8

Default

let some air out of the rear tires should also keep it more planted and have less of a rotation to it.
Mavrik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 07:46 PM   #5
racerjon1
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 43612
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Columbia, SC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mavrik View Post
let some air out of the rear tires should also keep it more planted and have less of a rotation to it.
Unless you're already running on the low end of your pressure zone, at which point it will still roll over and cause slide easier...


There is setup stuff you can do to help the car in the rain, and all of the above can work, it might not though.


First thing in the rain: Slow down. Realize that your braking distances increase, cornering abilities decrease and acceleration ability decreases.

So..
brake a little sooner and smoother
dont try to carry the same speed through the corners you would in the dry, and recognize that the same "seat of the pants" feel will not be there.
Accelerate smoother. I have heard people describe the rain as "doubling your horsepower" and it's probably a decent general rule. So.. act like you are driving a car with 2xHP, and squeeze the throttle more gently.

As far as setup, the most likely thing that will happen is the rain will exaggerate the current handling characteristics. So:

If your car is already loose in the dry, then consider a rear shock adjustment, or dissconnecting the sway bar, or a tire pressure adjustment.

If your car pushes.. chances are in most corners the rain will just make it push worse - you might not have to do anything. In my G-Stock CRX I ran stupidsuperstiff rear shocks and 55+ psi of rear air pressure. I felt like it was still always understeering, so when it rained I didn't change a thing. I killed people in the rain with it as they chased "rain setups". In the DSP 2.5 RS this year.. unless it's normally loose or perfectly ballanced toward a good slip angle, I won't change a thing with it either. I will just adjust my driving.



Jon K
racerjon1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 07:52 PM   #6
Storm
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 5218
Join Date: Mar 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: SAUL'S Motorsports
Vehicle:
96L Most Over-
Developed Beater

Default

For rainy events, I drop my pressures about 5-8psi all around and soften the rear shocks if needed. I will brake alot earlier to keep the corner speeds down, but also get on the power sooner and take full advantage of the AWD.

Looking at your setup (what tires and class?) I would try adjusting your driving first. It's less stuff to futz around with (on the car) and easily reversible.

Jay
Storm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 08:11 PM   #7
NJ 2.5RS
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 85606
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NJ
Vehicle:
2002 2.5 RS
Blue Ridge Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by racerjon1 View Post
Unless you're already running on the low end of your pressure zone, at which point it will still roll over and cause slide easier...


There is setup stuff you can do to help the car in the rain, and all of the above can work, it might not though.


First thing in the rain: Slow down. Realize that your braking distances increase, cornering abilities decrease and acceleration ability decreases.

So..
brake a little sooner and smoother
dont try to carry the same speed through the corners you would in the dry, and recognize that the same "seat of the pants" feel will not be there.
Accelerate smoother. I have heard people describe the rain as "doubling your horsepower" and it's probably a decent general rule. So.. act like you are driving a car with 2xHP, and squeeze the throttle more gently.

As far as setup, the most likely thing that will happen is the rain will exaggerate the current handling characteristics. So:

If your car is already loose in the dry, then consider a rear shock adjustment, or dissconnecting the sway bar, or a tire pressure adjustment.

If your car pushes.. chances are in most corners the rain will just make it push worse - you might not have to do anything. In my G-Stock CRX I ran stupidsuperstiff rear shocks and 55+ psi of rear air pressure. I felt like it was still always understeering, so when it rained I didn't change a thing. I killed people in the rain with it as they chased "rain setups". In the DSP 2.5 RS this year.. unless it's normally loose or perfectly ballanced toward a good slip angle, I won't change a thing with it either. I will just adjust my driving.



Jon K
The car in the dry is perfect for me. At the limit it still has the Subaru push but when you get everything right the car rotates perfectly. It seems to be only in the wet that the car begins to get squirrelly. In previous seasons I would literally not change a thing and just drive slightly more cautiously. Now I feel like I have lost that confidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
For rainy events, I drop my pressures about 5-8psi all around and soften the rear shocks if needed. I will brake alot earlier to keep the corner speeds down, but also get on the power sooner and take full advantage of the AWD.

Looking at your setup (what tires and class?) I would try adjusting your driving first. It's less stuff to futz around with (on the car) and easily reversible.

Jay
I am running RE070s at a pretty low pressure right now (37psi) so I could probably go only about 2 or 3 psi lower. I am in DP (stupid ALK, different classing normally) because the local club lost their lot and I am running SCCA for the first time. Otherwise I would be DSP.

I am just looking for any tips on rain driving. So if its a matter of changing technique whatever you guys got, I want to hear. Thanks again everyone.
NJ 2.5RS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 08:18 PM   #8
qcslvr30
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 42041
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Portland, OR
Vehicle:
2006 WRX STI
aspen white

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by racerjon1 View Post
First thing in the rain: Slow down. Realize that your braking distances increase, cornering abilities decrease and acceleration ability decreases.
Agreed. I have found that the biggest adjustments are required to me, not the car. If your car is pretty balanced in the dry, I wouldn't usually make changes for the wet except maybe slightly softening the rear rebound.

I have never had a lot of luck chasing a wet setup. Mostly because you just don't spend that much time practicing in the wet and there are too many degrees of wetness. If there is a chance it will dry out some before your runs are over I would regret having made swaybar or alignment changes.

James
qcslvr30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2009, 08:22 PM   #9
racerjon1
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 43612
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Columbia, SC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ 2.5RS View Post
The car in the dry is perfect for me. At the limit it still has the Subaru push but when you get everything right the car rotates perfectly. It seems to be only in the wet that the car begins to get squirrelly. In previous seasons I would literally not change a thing and just drive slightly more cautiously. Now I feel like I have lost that confidence.
Sounds like it's snapping at weight transfer then - dissconnect or soften the rear bar. Watch your tire pressures like you would with the dry - ie: with shoe polish to see rollover and such - adjust pressure as needed.

If you have lost the confidence the sway bar will be the best change, it might create more push than you want on corner-exit, but it will help get the confidence back.



Jon
racerjon1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 07:17 AM   #10
Storm
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 5218
Join Date: Mar 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: SAUL'S Motorsports
Vehicle:
96L Most Over-
Developed Beater

Default

D Prepared?

Your answer is Avon wets.....

Jay
Storm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 07:48 AM   #11
mccanixx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 60566
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, Ca.
Vehicle:
2005 XT 5sp, 02 WRX
01 Legacy 95 Impreza L

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by racerjon1 View Post


First thing in the rain: Slow down. Realize that your braking distances increase, cornering abilities decrease and acceleration ability decreases.

Jon K
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcslvr30 View Post
Agreed. I have found that the biggest adjustments are required to me, not the car. If your car is pretty balanced in the dry, I wouldn't usually make changes for the wet except maybe slightly softening the rear rebound.

I have never had a lot of luck chasing a wet setup. Mostly because you just don't spend that much time practicing in the wet and there are too many degrees of wetness. If there is a chance it will dry out some before your runs are over I would regret having made swaybar or alignment changes.

James
I agree with both of these posts. I've also never really changed my set up for rain. I would prefer to be on good tires of course.

I think you'd have a hard enough time rotating in the dry with that much rear camber and you should be good to go in the rain.

I tend to focus on slowing everything I do in the rain down. As stated brake earlier and try to be aware of what the tires and car are telling you. I also try to be smoother (read slower) with inputs, mainly steering. I don't want to be jerky on the wheel, brakes, or gas.

Above all enjoy it. You have a great car for it. I like driving in the rain, I'm not particularly great at it, I hate working in it though. Realize that some people are just fish and will out drive you on bald tires with no changes to the car.

Just like the dry...practice, practice, practice. I take every opportunity I get to drive in the wet. You may learn more by focusing on what your doing in the car then by futzing with adjustments.

Try to anticipate and get to know when/how and what makes the back end of your car step out. If you can figure out how to induce it and become comfortable with catching it (read appy gas) it can be fast and fun. Auto-x is an extremely safe arena to explore the limits, I say find them..........just watch out for your fellow course workers.

Just my.02
Greg

Last edited by mccanixx; 03-06-2009 at 07:57 AM.
mccanixx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 09:02 AM   #12
neilschelly
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 94902
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Merrimack, NH
Vehicle:
1988 911 Carrera 3.2
Silver

Default

In year's past, I've dropped the rear sway bar down a notch (I've got the same one as you) if time allows and I drop 2-4 clicks from my rear suspension (Megan Racing coilovers). For tire pressures I generally aim for the same operating pressure, but I start them lower because a little less pressure tends to let them heat up quicker, get grippier quicker, then get up to my normal operating temps quicker.
-N
neilschelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 09:04 AM   #13
NJ 2.5RS
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 85606
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: NJ
Vehicle:
2002 2.5 RS
Blue Ridge Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by racerjon1 View Post
Sounds like it's snapping at weight transfer then - dissconnect or soften the rear bar. Watch your tire pressures like you would with the dry - ie: with shoe polish to see rollover and such - adjust pressure as needed.

If you have lost the confidence the sway bar will be the best change, it might create more push than you want on corner-exit, but it will help get the confidence back.



Jon
I think if anything Im going to start with tire pressures and work my way back. Id hate to start changing the set up to drastically and have to be constantly relearning the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
D Prepared?

Your answer is Avon wets.....

Jay
Care to send me some My local club does car classing completely differently than SCCA so I kinda wasnt prepared this season for DP. Oh well its all in good fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccanixx View Post
I agree with both of these posts. I've also never really changed my set up for rain. I would prefer to be on good tires of course.

I think you'd have a hard enough time rotating in the dry with that much rear camber and you should be good to go in the rain.

I tend to focus on slowing everything I do in the rain down. As stated brake earlier and try to be aware of what the tires and car are telling you. I also try to be smoother (read slower) with inputs, mainly steering. I don't want to be jerky on the wheel, brakes, or gas.

Above all enjoy it. You have a great car for it. I like driving in the rain, I'm not particularly great at it, I hate working in it though. Realize that some people are just fish and will out drive you on bald tires with no changes to the car.

Just like the dry...practice, practice, practice. I take every opportunity I get to drive in the wet. You may learn more by focusing on what your doing in the car then by futzing with adjustments.

Try to anticipate and get to know when/how and what makes the back end of your car step out. If you can figure out how to induce it and become comfortable with catching it (read appy gas) it can be fast and fun. Auto-x is an extremely safe arena to explore the limits, I say find them..........just watch out for your fellow course workers.

Just my.02
Greg
Im going to trying to get as much seat time as possible since my suspension has changed so much since last year. As for the set up, with the heavier rear sway the car rotates very nicely (at least for me) even with the rear camber. I have had some seat time in the rain in previous seasons which I thoroughly enjoyed. Driving in wetter conditions is a ton of fun on almost any tire Ive run. Its just the new set up seems to have thrown me off which is why I asked for the help. The advice that has been given so far has given me a lot of insight into what I should be looking to do. Only 1 week before the first event, I cant wait.
NJ 2.5RS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 09:35 AM   #14
piknockout
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 192173
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maryland
Vehicle:
2006 STU prepped STi
Sponsored by Agile Auto

Default

Greg and James are absolutely correct. The only changes I make in the wet is to bring tire pressures down and that's really it. To Greg's point, figure out under what conditions the car will step out and learn to use that to your advantage. You have to learn to adapt what you do so that the car will act how you want it to.
piknockout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 08:26 PM   #15
MY EJ20T
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 133324
Join Date: Nov 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Beautiful Lancaster, Va
Vehicle:
2002 MBP Stg 2 Rally
MBP

Default

i didnt know nasioc had so many race car drivers
MY EJ20T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2009, 08:54 PM   #16
JamesWilson2
ForumWars Winner!
 
Member#: 196948
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Kyle, TX
Vehicle:
2003 Forester
Silver

Default

Me too, just a tire pressure change. I feel that I actually drive more aggressively in the rain, because I know my competition will be slowing down and being "careful". You'd be surprised what a Subaru can do in the rain Rather than a defensive approach to preventing a condition (snap oversteer, gross understeer), I tend to be more proactive and force the car to do what I want it to do, wet or dry, rather than react to what the car may be doing on its own. Won a lot of Tours, ProSolos, and a Super Challenge with that mindset (usually holding a knife, in a machine gun fight). Works for me, but YMMV. I suggest not staying home during the next wet weekend and focus on really experimenting on your wet driving....not necessarily car changes (because they will also be varying and course-dependent, what worked in January may not work in June...too many variables), but changing the driver. But I'm on the far left field side.....change/develop/sharpen the driver, the car is last...but that's more of a budget thing hahaha
JamesWilson2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I spit at Ur autocross in the rain skillz Jack Off-Topic 70 12-15-2009 10:30 PM
Best mouse trap for using in the rain? aod Off-Topic 42 10-03-2008 03:21 PM
advice on driving in the rain... AndyWRXWG Mid West Subaru Owners Club Forum -- MWSOC 25 09-08-2003 11:36 AM
Different psi for driving in the rain? Craig02WRX Tire & Wheel 2 04-22-2003 08:06 PM
what tires/rims is better for traction in the rain? blackwrx127 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 7 12-13-2002 09:16 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2015, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.