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Old 03-07-2009, 09:40 PM   #1
alfriedesq
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Default Converting to open dump WG on Gt35 - 10 whp

We did some interesting testing on a customer's car this past week I wanted to share

This is by no means a deifiniative or scientific testing so please take it for what it is worth

We started with a customer with a Perrin Gt35 rotated mount kit which had the wastegate discharge re-circulated back into the down pipe

The customer wanted the additional sound of the extrenal dump and I felt that he would pick up some significant power gains with the external dump

To sumarize the modifications to the car

'07 STI
Perrin GT35
APS 525 fmic
Built motor - Cosworth pistons, rods
Stock heads with valves and springs
Hydra Ecu
Buschur Double Pumper - P & L 1000 Injectors
Aquamist HFS 1
Greddy Pro Fec B Spec 2

We made 645 whp at 29.5 psi exact boost on pump with meth. The customer did not want to go beyond 30 psi as a maximum limit on his un sleeved block which I felt was very prudent and wise.

Then we had our fab guy make a WG dump tube and put the car back on the dyno for a re-test

655 whp - 10 whp through the power band gain. Really less than I had anticipated but with the same boost level and tuning it was a solid 10 whp.

An interesting test and result.

Those who are interested, I will have a video of the car and some of the testing on my You Tube channel at some point in the next few days. It was one heck of a fun car on the street and got me in really in the mood for working on my STI. lol.

Al
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Old 03-07-2009, 09:53 PM   #2
benw
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so nothing was changed except the dump tube? Or were you tweaking the tune at the same time?

What impact did it have on boost control?
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Old 03-07-2009, 10:04 PM   #3
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good stuff Al, hope to see this car around CT
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Old 03-07-2009, 10:47 PM   #4
alfriedesq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benw View Post
so nothing was changed except the dump tube? Or were you tweaking the tune at the same time?

What impact did it have on boost control?
No changes on the tune up - I did not want to have that impact on the test results

The boost controller had to be turned down 4 clicks to achieve the same exact boost as data logged by the hydra ecu

It should be noted at this boost level we also tested removing the air filter and it had no significant effect on the car's power at this boost level
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Old 03-07-2009, 11:07 PM   #5
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I'd gladly loose 10whp at that power level to avoid all the noise from a dumped to atmosphere EWG. You'd never feel or notice the difference in power either by the seat of the pants or even by trap speed. Heck, on a 600+whp car, 10whp is run to run variance
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Old 03-08-2009, 12:01 AM   #6
alfriedesq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalLGT View Post
I'd gladly loose 10whp at that power level to avoid all the noise from a dumped to atmosphere EWG. You'd never feel or notice the difference in power either by the seat of the pants or even by trap speed. Heck, on a 600+whp car, 10whp is run to run variance
I agree and that seems to be the conclusion from this test.

Hopefully we will be able to try this out on another couple of cars so I can see if the trend continues.

Al
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Old 03-08-2009, 01:36 AM   #7
verc
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what exhaust? For example if I'm running a stock catback then I would expect more gains from dumping to atmo
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Old 03-08-2009, 10:30 AM   #8
BuggeyEYED
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there must be a typo... 650whp on pump and meth at 29psi? you probably mean 550....
or is this an evo?
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Old 03-08-2009, 07:32 PM   #9
alfriedesq
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Originally Posted by BuggeyEYED View Post
there must be a typo... 650whp on pump and meth at 29psi? you probably mean 550....
or is this an evo?
No this is a 07 STI
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Old 03-08-2009, 08:36 PM   #10
Equilibrium Tuning
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With a well designed dump back into the DP and a free flowing exhaust, I wouldn't expect to see much gain. On a car with a more restrictive catback, I'd expect the gains would be more significant.

-- Ed
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Old 03-08-2009, 08:40 PM   #11
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Al this is nothing new, you know that an external dump will always make a little more power.
All the evo guys, the old dsm guys, even on here this was discussed to great lengths back in the day.
Like someone else mentioned, 10whp on a 600+whp is hardly noticeable.. Maybe the noise is a reminder that its making 10 more whp?
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Old 03-08-2009, 09:33 PM   #12
SuperSTI
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Al this is nothing new

he is still learning
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Old 03-08-2009, 10:45 PM   #13
urfsin
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Stickers add 10whp and are WAY cheaper than this....
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Old 03-08-2009, 10:52 PM   #14
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i could care less about the atmosperic vs recirc WG, but making 650whp on an un sleeved ej with stock heads seams crazy. expecially on 29psi and meth. did the hydra open the door to that much power? id love to see the dyno sheet on that car. with numbers like that i might just have to go rotated.
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evokiller89 View Post
i could care less about the atmosperic vs recirc WG, but making 650whp on an un sleeved ej with stock heads seams crazy. expecially on 29psi and meth. did the hydra open the door to that much power? id love to see the dyno sheet on that car. with numbers like that i might just have to go rotated.
I made 660 the beginning of last season with a unsleeved EJ. Trapped 108-109 to the 1/8th. The heads on this car are not stock, they have cams etc. Maybe stock ports.. Did that too last year on an 06sti that car trapped 136 and went 10.4.. Stock sleeves as well. There are a few other guys on here with 600+whp stock sleeve cars. Nothing new, but they are great numbers for pump and meth though.
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:16 PM   #16
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yea ik its been done before but still impressive. and i thought the car had stock cams that was the big changeing factor. but im still impressed that these numbers were on a handful of mods and pump nd meth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
I made 660 the beginning of last season with a unsleeved EJ. Trapped 108-109 to the 1/8th. The heads on this car are not stock, they have cams etc. Maybe stock ports.. Did that too last year on an 06sti that car trapped 136 and went 10.4.. Stock sleeves as well. There are a few other guys on here with 600+whp stock sleeve cars. Nothing new, but they are great numbers for pump and meth though.
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Old 03-08-2009, 11:23 PM   #17
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The stock ports work pretty good. The valves make a huge power gain as well as the cams.
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:04 AM   #18
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I would like to know, did you see any change in the reading on the wideband due to a loss of exhaust when the wastegate opens?
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:08 AM   #19
alfriedesq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
Al this is nothing new, you know that an external dump will always make a little more power.
All the evo guys, the old dsm guys, even on here this was discussed to great lengths back in the day.
Like someone else mentioned, 10whp on a 600+whp is hardly noticeable.. Maybe the noise is a reminder that its making 10 more whp?
I have never tested a dump vs a non dump on the same car in the past

There are a lot of theories and presumptions floating around out there and I beleive that nothing takes the place of actual testing

Depending on the design of the cat back exhuast and size, I would think that the gains / losses would vary.

Al
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:10 AM   #20
alfriedesq
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I would like to know, did you see any change in the reading on the wideband due to a loss of exhaust when the wastegate opens?
The wideband does not measure flow it measure the raito of 02 to fuel
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:13 AM   #21
alfriedesq
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Originally Posted by evokiller89 View Post
yea ik its been done before but still impressive. and i thought the car had stock cams that was the big changeing factor. but im still impressed that these numbers were on a handful of mods and pump nd meth.
It was not exactly a handful of mods. The car had about $40,000 in parts alone I think when they were all added up including wheels, suspension, etc.

Nevertheless, we have been making very good strides with the Aquamist meth injection systems and we have several Evos running 700 whp very reliably on pump gas and some BMW's also at over 700 whp on pump gas.

I am hoping to take my STI over 700 on pump gas and meth later this spring.

Al
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:15 AM   #22
alfriedesq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evokiller89 View Post
i could care less about the atmosperic vs recirc WG, but making 650whp on an un sleeved ej with stock heads seams crazy. expecially on 29psi and meth. did the hydra open the door to that much power? id love to see the dyno sheet on that car. with numbers like that i might just have to go rotated.
Its nothing new really, we acually have two nearly identical STI's with the same type of basic set up. I am working on the video and will have it up soon. Its hard to edit all the weeks of footage down to a 10 minute segment.

Al
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Old 03-09-2009, 12:22 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
The stock ports work pretty good. The valves make a huge power gain as well as the cams.
The design of a port needs to go hand and hand with the intended power band and the intake manifold.

A stock port is intended mostly to inhance velocity at low rpms and on a car like this helps make a lot of low end TQ and fast spool up.

This year with my Evo I went to a stock head - only cams and springs modified - and actually picked up 3 mph and ran the same ET with my Evo 9.8

Intake manifold design and testing and head porting are subjects which I have been fixating on lately and are very interesting subjects

In many cases the stock OEM parts are very hard to beat in many respects. As a tuner, I have made a consious decision to utilize as many stock parts as possible in my builds. Al
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Old 03-09-2009, 01:51 AM   #24
UpSideDownDesi
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soo....louder = more hp.... haha jk. Good results
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Old 03-09-2009, 02:27 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuggeyEYED View Post
there must be a typo... 650whp on pump and meth at 29psi? you probably mean 550....
or is this an evo?
no faith in subaru power huh? lol
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