Hybrid build misfire and poor idle.

mvcsk8r · 03-09-2009, 01:29 PM

First off, only constructive critisism please.

Here is what happened and what I did.

I spun two rod bearings in 2 and 3. Also managed to get cracks in my heads around the plugs. I was already running a hybrid set up with 11k on it. Ran great but I beat the piss out of it, probably my fault for spun bearings.

I have a 05 Saabaru (might as well be a wrx), I rebuilt the EJ257 with ACL bearings, new stock crank, wiseco forged pistons. I got a set of heads off an 02 wrx and had them rebuild. I then used my existing 2.0 cams and lifters, I installed the lifters in the locations they were in on my existing heads, I did not check clearance and I am kicking my self now. I also installed a P&L oilpump which is an 11mm bored out, and a catch can. I took the extra crank case vent and t'd it into the other breather lines then to the catch can and back.

The only other mods are as follows and were on the previous build.

565 injectors
Nvidia v2 dp and g200 cb
stock 06 uppipe
tgv deletion
snorkus deletion.

I got it all back together and it runs like crap. poor idle, doesn't always start, backfires. bateery was weak and through code 102 and 113 MAFF and intake air temp. Replaced the battery and got 302 and 303 misfires.

Here is what I did:
*prior to installation i double checked the timing marks were correct.
*put old plugs back in.
*double checked correct wires on coils. cleaned connections and put dielectric grease on plugs and connectors.
*sprayed off MAF sensor but not removed and cleaned

I am going to move coils around to see if problem moves with them tonight. Any other things to look at.

Could the oil pump move the crank sensor away to give it a bad reading?
Could the lifter clearance throw it off enough to cause misfires?

Thanks in advance.

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

andya · 03-09-2009, 02:08 PM

Before taking this thread any further and getting bombarded with ridicule, REMOVE the VALVE COVERS............... CHECK LASH........... odds are tight valves..

mvcsk8r · 03-09-2009, 02:26 PM

Thanks, that was my thought. Wish I had done more research prior to rushing through the build.

andya · 03-09-2009, 02:33 PM

You will be better off by removing the engine again to make sure you get the clearances correct...

mvcsk8r · 03-09-2009, 02:43 PM

I'll go that route. At least all the bolts will be loose. I'll update when I know more.

mvcsk8r · 03-10-2009, 12:44 PM

swapping coils made no difference. Pulled the engine last night. The valve clearance will be checked tonight.

mvcsk8r · 03-11-2009, 08:52 AM

Holy crap no clearance at all the way I had it set up. I used my 05 cams with the 02 heads. I can use 2 of my buckets. The rest of my buckets and the ones that came with the head will work. The only reasoning I can think of is I had a valve job and he ground the seats. He must have taken off quite a bit of material.

mvcsk8r · 03-11-2009, 11:46 AM

Ok so since I was unable to measure the clearance on 7 of the intake lifters using a 493 bucket, I would assume then that they need a 465 or smaller bucket. Subaru according to my dealer only makes them as small as 469 and they charge 20 bucks a piece. Are my heads now junk? If I were to have them rebuilt again with new seats, would that be enough to increase the clearance allowing me to use the larger buckets? Does anyone have other suggestions? I considered having my current ones surface ground to the thickness I need but that would kill the surface hardness if there is any correct?

andya · 03-11-2009, 11:53 AM

There are buckets smaller... I even have a few 438s. The dealer needs to dig a little further because I had the same problem here.

Jpizzzle · 03-11-2009, 12:48 PM

Maybe this will help...remember, the number on the underside of the bucket has NOTHING to do with the last 3 digits of the part number. The number on the bottom are the actual thickness in thousandths of millimeters. Good luck!

andya · 03-11-2009, 02:01 PM

13228AB702... 4.38 / 0.1725(IN)
AB712... 4.40 new # 13228AB711
AB722...4.42 AB721
AB732...4.44 AB731
The numbers go up in 10's and are listed for 07 up Forester in the catalog

NITROS · 03-11-2009, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andya

Before taking this thread any further and getting bombarded with ridicule, REMOVE the VALVE COVERS............... CHECK LASH........... odds are tight valves..

Yep exact problem i had. If you had a angle job done you are most definitely too tight.

mick_the_ginge · 03-11-2009, 04:30 PM

Just shorten the valves, that's what I do. Valve stems just need a little ground of the end and then you pick a bucket to get the correct lash.

mvcsk8r · 03-11-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge

Just shorten the valves, that's what I do. Valve stems just need a little ground of the end and then you pick a bucket to get the correct lash.

By grinding the top of the valve, doesn't that remove the hardened surface, in turn making it a soft contact point?

mick_the_ginge · 03-11-2009, 04:52 PM

No it does not. I've done this with stock, supertech black nitride and Inconel valves

andya · 03-11-2009, 05:11 PM

Mick, this would mean tearing the heads back apart to properly 'Tip' the stems for more clearance. If the machine shop will do this and properly set the clearances, then by all means use this route... If not, purchase the buckets needed.

mick_the_ginge · 03-11-2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andya

Mick, this would mean tearing the heads back apart to properly 'Tip' the stems for more clearance. If the machine shop will do this and properly set the clearances, then by all means use this route... If not, purchase the buckets needed.

100% agreed especially if the block is in the car.

I was addressing these comments

Quote:

Are my heads now junk? - Does anyone have other suggestions?

mvcsk8r · 03-11-2009, 05:52 PM

Thanks guys, you have restored hope. The engine is out of the car but the heads are not off. though for the price (16x$20+$20) I wonder if having the valves trimmed and getting new head gasketswould be cheaper? Probably not.

mvcsk8r · 03-11-2009, 05:56 PM

O, I milled down the inner surface of one of my spare lifters to 4.40mm. I did this to be able to measure the clearance on the 7 valves I was unable to. By doing this I cut off 6mm, and inturn must have gone through the hardened layer but if not, this would probably be another solution, no? Or is that surface not flat?

andya · 03-11-2009, 06:11 PM

The inner contact surface is not flat so the cam follower can rotate while opening the valve. If flat, the cam and bucket surface will be short lived because of the friction induced.

mvcsk8r · 03-11-2009, 09:18 PM

Update:

I put my shaved lifter in and measured the gaps. I also picked up a compression tester. I am really hoping I am doing something wrong otherwise the heads need to come off.

A little back ground. I just rebuilt the block with new forged pistons. Upon final reinstallation I started the car and drove it around the block attempting to seat the rings, unfortunately due to my stupidity and lack of knowledge the car ran like crap so I stuck it back in the garage and ripped it back apart.

Which brings me to my current situation. i put the compression tester in the spark plug hole. with no cams in, turned the engine over using a rachet several time. I can hear air entering and exscaping and I am getting 30 psi in all four cylinders. I would think that since there are no cams to open the valves that I would still get full compression correct? Which means during my stupid trip around the block I managed to burn/warp all of the valves? Or is it because The rings were never seated? Or both? Or am I doing the compression test all wrong, please tell me that is the answer. Thanks again, feel free to refer to me a dumb ass now.

mvcsk8r · 03-11-2009, 09:30 PM

Ok maybe I should have done a leak down test instead. But I should still see more than 30 psi right?

xXFiendXx · 03-11-2009, 10:58 PM

No offense man, but you have no business building a motor. It really sounds like you do not know what you are doing. Take it to someone who does before repairs get even more outta hand!

mvcsk8r · 03-12-2009, 09:35 AM

Lack of money prevent me from doing that. I had no problem replacing a spun bearing but not understanding Subaru heads prior to putting a new one in was my down fall. I'm a mechanical engineer and tend to not be afraid to take things apart however not having any reference material other than Nasioc I am kind of limited. I made a series of assumptions about the machine shop I use that did not pan out. I agree at this point taking it asomewhere would be the easiest thing to do, but it's not going to happen so don't bother making the comment. Please stick to answering the questions. Had there been answers to these questions on other posts I may not have run into these issues but instead people make comments like "take it to someone who knows what they are doing". Everyone has to start somewhere. Thanks

Jpizzzle · 03-12-2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXFiendXx

No offense man, but you have no business building a motor. It really sounds like you do not know what you are doing. Take it to someone who does before repairs get even more outta hand!

GOD! Its people like you who really ****ing PISS me off

...How did the first tech do things?! they screwed up and learned from their mistakes, being and engineer along with this guy its pretty much our job to fix the screw ups,even if it is our own.

How is anyone supposed to learn if you arent allowed to ask questions?

end rant..sorry for taking up a post...

Im glad youre stickin to it mvcsk8r, good luck

03-09-2009, 01:29 PM	#1
mvcsk8r Scooby Newbie Member#: 182483 Join Date: Jun 2008 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Manchvegas NH Vehicle: 05 Saabaru 92X HYB Silver	Hybrid build misfire and poor idle. First off, only constructive critisism please. Here is what happened and what I did. I spun two rod bearings in 2 and 3. Also managed to get cracks in my heads around the plugs. I was already running a hybrid set up with 11k on it. Ran great but I beat the piss out of it, probably my fault for spun bearings. I have a 05 Saabaru (might as well be a wrx), I rebuilt the EJ257 with ACL bearings, new stock crank, wiseco forged pistons. I got a set of heads off an 02 wrx and had them rebuild. I then used my existing 2.0 cams and lifters, I installed the lifters in the locations they were in on my existing heads, I did not check clearance and I am kicking my self now. I also installed a P&L oilpump which is an 11mm bored out, and a catch can. I took the extra crank case vent and t'd it into the other breather lines then to the catch can and back. The only other mods are as follows and were on the previous build. 565 injectors Nvidia v2 dp and g200 cb stock 06 uppipe tgv deletion snorkus deletion. I got it all back together and it runs like crap. poor idle, doesn't always start, backfires. bateery was weak and through code 102 and 113 MAFF and intake air temp. Replaced the battery and got 302 and 303 misfires. Here is what I did: prior to installation i double checked the timing marks were correct. put old plugs back in. double checked correct wires on coils. cleaned connections and put dielectric grease on plugs and connectors. sprayed off MAF sensor but not removed and cleaned I am going to move coils around to see if problem moves with them tonight. Any other things to look at. Could the oil pump move the crank sensor away to give it a bad reading? Could the lifter clearance throw it off enough to cause misfires? Thanks in advance. * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

03-12-2009, 09:35 AM	#24
mvcsk8r Scooby Newbie Member#: 182483 Join Date: Jun 2008 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Manchvegas NH Vehicle: 05 Saabaru 92X HYB Silver	Lack of money prevent me from doing that. I had no problem replacing a spun bearing but not understanding Subaru heads prior to putting a new one in was my down fall. I'm a mechanical engineer and tend to not be afraid to take things apart however not having any reference material other than Nasioc I am kind of limited. I made a series of assumptions about the machine shop I use that did not pan out. I agree at this point taking it asomewhere would be the easiest thing to do, but it's not going to happen so don't bother making the comment. Please stick to answering the questions. Had there been answers to these questions on other posts I may not have run into these issues but instead people make comments like "take it to someone who knows what they are doing". Everyone has to start somewhere. Thanks Last edited by mvcsk8r; 03-12-2009 at 02:23 PM.

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03-09-2009, 02:08 PM	#2
andya Scooby Newbie Member#: 200134 Join Date: Jan 2009	Before taking this thread any further and getting bombarded with ridicule, REMOVE the VALVE COVERS............... CHECK LASH........... odds are tight valves..

03-09-2009, 02:26 PM	#3
mvcsk8r Scooby Newbie Member#: 182483 Join Date: Jun 2008 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Manchvegas NH Vehicle: 05 Saabaru 92X HYB Silver	Thanks, that was my thought. Wish I had done more research prior to rushing through the build.

03-09-2009, 02:33 PM	#4
andya Scooby Newbie Member#: 200134 Join Date: Jan 2009	You will be better off by removing the engine again to make sure you get the clearances correct...

03-09-2009, 02:43 PM	#5
mvcsk8r Scooby Newbie Member#: 182483 Join Date: Jun 2008 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Manchvegas NH Vehicle: 05 Saabaru 92X HYB Silver	I'll go that route. At least all the bolts will be loose. I'll update when I know more.

03-10-2009, 12:44 PM	#6
mvcsk8r Scooby Newbie Member#: 182483 Join Date: Jun 2008 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Manchvegas NH Vehicle: 05 Saabaru 92X HYB Silver	swapping coils made no difference. Pulled the engine last night. The valve clearance will be checked tonight.

03-11-2009, 08:52 AM	#7
mvcsk8r Scooby Newbie Member#: 182483 Join Date: Jun 2008 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Manchvegas NH Vehicle: 05 Saabaru 92X HYB Silver	Holy crap no clearance at all the way I had it set up. I used my 05 cams with the 02 heads. I can use 2 of my buckets. The rest of my buckets and the ones that came with the head will work. The only reasoning I can think of is I had a valve job and he ground the seats. He must have taken off quite a bit of material.

03-11-2009, 11:46 AM	#8
mvcsk8r Scooby Newbie Member#: 182483 Join Date: Jun 2008 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Manchvegas NH Vehicle: 05 Saabaru 92X HYB Silver	Ok so since I was unable to measure the clearance on 7 of the intake lifters using a 493 bucket, I would assume then that they need a 465 or smaller bucket. Subaru according to my dealer only makes them as small as 469 and they charge 20 bucks a piece. Are my heads now junk? If I were to have them rebuilt again with new seats, would that be enough to increase the clearance allowing me to use the larger buckets? Does anyone have other suggestions? I considered having my current ones surface ground to the thickness I need but that would kill the surface hardness if there is any correct?

03-11-2009, 11:53 AM	#9
andya Scooby Newbie Member#: 200134 Join Date: Jan 2009	There are buckets smaller... I even have a few 438s. The dealer needs to dig a little further because I had the same problem here.

03-11-2009, 12:48 PM	#10
Jpizzzle Scooby Specialist Member#: 95492 Join Date: Sep 2005 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Waterford, MI Vehicle: 2003 WRX with STI goodies >:)	Maybe this will help...remember, the number on the underside of the bucket has NOTHING to do with the last 3 digits of the part number. The number on the bottom are the actual thickness in thousandths of millimeters. Good luck!

03-11-2009, 02:01 PM	#11
andya Scooby Newbie Member#: 200134 Join Date: Jan 2009	13228AB702... 4.38 / 0.1725(IN) AB712... 4.40 new # 13228AB711 AB722...4.42 AB721 AB732...4.44 AB731 The numbers go up in 10's and are listed for 07 up Forester in the catalog

03-11-2009, 04:30 PM	#13
mick_the_ginge Citizen Mick Member#: 27646 Join Date: Oct 2002 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Portland, Oregon Vehicle: 2003 Sleeved 2.5 Oil Dry Sump Goodness	Just shorten the valves, that's what I do. Valve stems just need a little ground of the end and then you pick a bucket to get the correct lash.

03-11-2009, 04:52 PM	#15
mick_the_ginge Citizen Mick Member#: 27646 Join Date: Oct 2002 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Portland, Oregon Vehicle: 2003 Sleeved 2.5 Oil Dry Sump Goodness	No it does not. I've done this with stock, supertech black nitride and Inconel valves

03-11-2009, 05:11 PM	#16
andya Scooby Newbie Member#: 200134 Join Date: Jan 2009	Mick, this would mean tearing the heads back apart to properly 'Tip' the stems for more clearance. If the machine shop will do this and properly set the clearances, then by all means use this route... If not, purchase the buckets needed.

03-11-2009, 05:52 PM	#18
mvcsk8r Scooby Newbie Member#: 182483 Join Date: Jun 2008 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Manchvegas NH Vehicle: 05 Saabaru 92X HYB Silver	Thanks guys, you have restored hope. The engine is out of the car but the heads are not off. though for the price (16x$20+$20) I wonder if having the valves trimmed and getting new head gasketswould be cheaper? Probably not.

03-11-2009, 05:56 PM	#19
mvcsk8r Scooby Newbie Member#: 182483 Join Date: Jun 2008 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Manchvegas NH Vehicle: 05 Saabaru 92X HYB Silver	O, I milled down the inner surface of one of my spare lifters to 4.40mm. I did this to be able to measure the clearance on the 7 valves I was unable to. By doing this I cut off 6mm, and inturn must have gone through the hardened layer but if not, this would probably be another solution, no? Or is that surface not flat?

03-11-2009, 06:11 PM	#20
andya Scooby Newbie Member#: 200134 Join Date: Jan 2009	The inner contact surface is not flat so the cam follower can rotate while opening the valve. If flat, the cam and bucket surface will be short lived because of the friction induced.

03-11-2009, 09:18 PM	#21
mvcsk8r Scooby Newbie Member#: 182483 Join Date: Jun 2008 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Manchvegas NH Vehicle: 05 Saabaru 92X HYB Silver	Update: I put my shaved lifter in and measured the gaps. I also picked up a compression tester. I am really hoping I am doing something wrong otherwise the heads need to come off. A little back ground. I just rebuilt the block with new forged pistons. Upon final reinstallation I started the car and drove it around the block attempting to seat the rings, unfortunately due to my stupidity and lack of knowledge the car ran like crap so I stuck it back in the garage and ripped it back apart. Which brings me to my current situation. i put the compression tester in the spark plug hole. with no cams in, turned the engine over using a rachet several time. I can hear air entering and exscaping and I am getting 30 psi in all four cylinders. I would think that since there are no cams to open the valves that I would still get full compression correct? Which means during my stupid trip around the block I managed to burn/warp all of the valves? Or is it because The rings were never seated? Or both? Or am I doing the compression test all wrong, please tell me that is the answer. Thanks again, feel free to refer to me a dumb ass now.

03-11-2009, 09:30 PM	#22
mvcsk8r Scooby Newbie Member#: 182483 Join Date: Jun 2008 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Manchvegas NH Vehicle: 05 Saabaru 92X HYB Silver	Ok maybe I should have done a leak down test instead. But I should still see more than 30 psi right?

03-11-2009, 10:58 PM	#23
xXFiendXx Scooby Newbie Member#: 155689 Join Date: Aug 2007	No offense man, but you have no business building a motor. It really sounds like you do not know what you are doing. Take it to someone who does before repairs get even more outta hand!