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Old 03-11-2009, 05:03 PM   #1
leoimpreza
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Default What camshafts for 9000+rpm

Hi guys, I want to know your opinions-suggestions about what camshafts can I use for my project to have rev limit 9000+rpm. I think about custom-spec Kelford non-AVCS camshafts.

I will use EJ20 closed-deck block w/ oil squirters and modified special water channel guide, Arrow 81mm-stroke cross-drilled billet crankshaft (EN40B), Extreme Arrow H-beam connecting rods (RCM spec T014), Custom Omega 92.5mm forged pistons with electroless nickel-coated from Prodrive like S12 version wrc (high compression ratio), Omega heavy-duty gudgeon piston pins and high-performance piston rings, ARP block bolt kit, Cosworth H11 steel head studs (L19 type), Ported, polished & flow tested STi Ver7 heads by Sevdalis Super Flow, Supertech 1mm oversized stainless-steel black-nitride intake valves, Supertech 1mm oversized inconel exhaust valves, Supertech dual valve springs, Supertech titanium valve retainers & seats, Custom Arrow beryllium copper intake and exhaust valve guides, Custom Arrow chromoly billet cam followers, Power Enterprise heavy metal head gaskets, ACL race series main and big-end bearings, JUN high flow oil pump, WRC titanium/aluminum adjustable vernier pulleys (w/ big tooth profile) and WRC R-profile high-wrap timing belt system. I think with all these parts I haven’t any problem on high rev-limit.

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Old 03-11-2009, 05:10 PM   #2
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as i read this i was like this guy is ****in nuts...than i realized it was just you.
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Old 03-11-2009, 05:27 PM   #3
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Quote:
I think with all these parts I haven’t any problem on high rev-limit
I don't agree and I know for a fact that a fully built motor means nothing when it comes to reving high. I hope you have just forgotten to mention it but you need a better oiling system. JUN pump is one thing but you should also consider a larger pan so you can run more oil, a baffle to help stop the oil getting whipped up at higher rpms and at a minimum you need an Accusump to backup the stock location pump in the event of a starvation issue.

As for cams you need big duration to help with the flow at the top end.

Intake - 285 Duration with 11.2 mm lift
Exhaust - 276 or 280 Duration with 10.8 mm lift

You can fit the Non-AVCS versions of the these without modification to the heads. These are pretty much off the shelf Kelford cams. If you go with a bigger lift you will need to clearance the head castings and clay the block and heads to see how much piston to valve clearance you have. Don't forget to factor in rod strech at the higher rpms'

That's a nice build you have by the way.
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Old 03-11-2009, 05:55 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
I don't agree and I know for a fact that a fully built motor means nothing when it comes to reving high. I hope you have just forgotten to mention it but you need a better oiling system. JUN pump is one thing but you should also consider a larger pan so you can run more oil, a baffle to help stop the oil getting whipped up at higher rpms and at a minimum you need an Accusump to backup the stock location pump in the event of a starvation issue.

As for cams you need big duration to help with the flow at the top end.

Intake - 285 Duration with 11.2 mm lift
Exhaust - 276 or 280 Duration with 10.8 mm lift

You can fit the Non-AVCS versions of the these without modification to the heads. These are pretty much off the shelf Kelford cams. If you go with a bigger lift you will need to clearance the head castings and clay the block and heads to see how much piston to valve clearance you have. Don't forget to factor in rod strech at the higher rpms'

That's a nice build you have by the way.
Thanks for your opinion.

I have ARC high-capacity oil pan (modified)


First baffler from Oem oil pan modified to fit in ARC oil pan


Second double ARC baffler modified to works with the other bafflers


Custom alloy baffler like Prodrive Group-N


Tomei baffle stiffener




And Setrab 25-row oil cooler (w/ SPAL cooling fan driven by Motec)
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Old 03-11-2009, 06:14 PM   #5
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That's good, now "T" in an Accusump with a check valve to stop oil reversing back into the pump and you are set.
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:55 PM   #6
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You dont need a accusump. Ive talked to a tuner in the phillipees that is reving to 9200, and using Tomei type B cams. They are only 264s, so with head porting its very possible to go that high.
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:57 PM   #7
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Agree with Mick, get an oil accumulator for added engine safety.

Also, make sure you get your bearing clearances right. Run them too tight and you'll lack the oil to keep them lubricated at high rpm and high temp as the oil viscosity drops and your oil starts to sheer - you will spin a bearing - very import to make sure they are set up to suit the application, your engine spinning to 9000+rpm will need suitably looser clearances then an oem daily driver

You may possibly want to consider rod length too, and some lighter oversized pistons to better support high rpm.

I'd actually advise getting into contact with oine of the builders who have high rpm engines running and proven on a track.

As for cams, I must sound like a broken record, but Kelford are hard to beat. They are priced very well, and offer higher lift, wider lobe area then other manufacturer's cams at the same advertised duration.

Just to give you an idea - Mick suggested something similar to:
Intake - 285 Duration with 11.2 mm lift
Exhaust - 276 or 280 Duration with 10.8 mm lift

Kelford offers:
Intake - 282 Duration with 11.5 mm lift
Exhaust - 282 Duration with 11.0 mm lift

Very similar in specs, but with a little more lift

Or you could even get them (with all their experience) to custom make you cams to suit your engine build and offer you the largest powerband while considering the high RPM you are going/wanting to run.
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:43 PM   #8
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Did you read anything he posted? He has rods, pistons ect. I would not run that long a duration, it will be WAY too peaky for the street, hes using a hks gt35-40 turbo. 274 or 264 would be great for his application with the propper head porting I know he'll do.
An accusump is for when you lose pressure and want to save your motor, its doing nothing while just driving around, but yes its good insurance.
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Old 03-11-2009, 09:50 PM   #9
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he has obviously speant a monstrous amount of money on his car in general...much more considering his engine. In my opinion not to have the added security of an accusump would be pretty brave(or stupid).
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Old 03-11-2009, 10:01 PM   #10
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or contact whoever built this car for advice


wrx on dyno pulling to 9200rpm frickin sick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aShLP...ext=1&index=10
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Old 03-11-2009, 10:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scby rex View Post
Did you read anything he posted? He has rods, pistons ect. I would not run that long a duration, it will be WAY too peaky for the street, hes using a hks gt35-40 turbo. 274 or 264 would be great for his application with the propper head porting I know he'll do.
An accusump is for when you lose pressure and want to save your motor, its doing nothing while just driving around, but yes its good insurance.
I doubt this person is rev'ing to 9500 rpm on the street, even on Greek streets. Well I would at least hope so, well maybe the back streets

Cam specs like this with the longer duration and big lift are designed for high spinning engines so they continue to flow at the higher RPM's. You are correct if you are only rev'ing to 7000 then yes, an agressive cam like this is way over the top.

I run 272 intake and 264 exhaust kelford cams with a GT35R .82 and I can tell you that the torque starts to fall off at 6200 and power at 7600. The only reson to spin high is to hope to continue making power. If it's falling off then why bother rev'ing that high.

Actually an Accusump does so much more. You have oil pressure BEFORE start which resolves the dry start issues. If they plan to rev to 9500 then the bearing clearances do need to be larger meaning it's even more important to have oil pressure for start up. It balances oil pressure so even during shifts oil pressure is more balanced. And of course the possible starvation issue due to high G turns or air bubbles in the pickup.

The OP asked for advice on cams, they got that and a little more advice from me and others. That's what built motor is all about
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Old 03-11-2009, 10:07 PM   #12
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wait...9500rpms? i thought there was a bad resonance in our engines right around 9400rpms.
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Old 03-11-2009, 10:16 PM   #13
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i herd 9600 but no one has actually proven it from what i or many others can find
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Old 03-11-2009, 10:21 PM   #14
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i recall some company with their time attack car was hitting it and it cause them to bang bearings.
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Old 03-11-2009, 11:05 PM   #15
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Remember stock ver8 STi spec c imprezas spin to 9k. So a better motor should beable to see 92-9500 with no sweat.
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Old 03-11-2009, 11:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scby rex View Post
Remember stock ver8 STi spec c imprezas spin to 9k. So a better motor should beable to see 92-9500 with no sweat.
actually its 8250, but fuel cut takes a second to kick in so its really closer to 8500, but most anyone who tunes it takes it to 9k, but like most have said you really dont make much power that high unless you have a big turbo. my goal with my v8 will be to extensively port the heads, go +1mm on the valves, and get the engine to breath as good as possible so i have the best chances of making power in the 8500-9k range
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:03 AM   #17
mick_the_ginge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scby rex View Post
Remember stock ver8 STi spec c imprezas spin to 9k. So a better motor should beable to see 92-9500 with no sweat.
It's so different to spin a 400 WHP engine to 9000+ than a 250 WHP engine. The forces of the engine are far more extreme. I like to think that I've actually done it. I've pushed engines past their limits and then built new setups that I can push like this longer and harder.

We should ask the OP what they want.

What's your power goals? Sorry I did not read the 11 pages of your main thread?

Do you actually want to make power to redline?

Street only? Drag? Track Racing?

How long do you want it to run for? 1000 miles? 100,000 miles? Longevity and power is a trade off

If the plan is to spin to 9000+ once in a while on a straight road then a stock pump with the pan and baffle will probably work. If you plan to track the car then I recommend an Accusump as you cannot afford to lose oil at the higher RPM's.

As for cams, if you want power at redline then the original cam specs I supplied or the others wrxsti.l supplied IMO will do just that.

Here is a short list of my current engine setup
Darton Sleeved Closed Deck Case
Cobb Tuner Crank (K1)
Pauter Rods
CP Pistons (5 thou piston to cylinder clearance)
ACL Race Bearings (1.5 thou main, 2 thou rod)
V7 Large Port heads, over ported
Supertech 1/2mm larger intake/exhaust valves (Nitride intake, Inconel exhaust)
Dual springs
Kelford 272 intake, 264 exhaust cams
Custom 3 stage oil dry sump with integrated accusump
GT35R rotated turbo - 400WHP/400TQ @ 20psi - Spinning to 7600 as I don't need to rev any higher.
and new for this season, Antilag

oh my backup block is a darton sleeved open deck block with a Cobb tuner crank, forged rods, Wiseco pistons (3.5 thou clearance) ACL Race bearings, 1.5 thou main, 2 thou rod, STI heads with dual springs and supertech valves
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:09 AM   #18
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Darn it........... Did I just play the "mines bigger than yours game..............." I hate doing that, I class myself as humble and I hate dropping to that level. Sorry, won't happen again.
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:55 AM   #19
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yeah I'm surprised all those cosworth blocks don't explode due to "crank resonance."

Quote:
Originally Posted by mxpop View Post
I dont remember what the graphs look like but it does make great power to 8500 which is my usual redline. I leave those tuning details up to Dan, I just step on the pedals . I usually shift at about 8k but will go slightly higher if I need to hold a gear a little longer into a section instead of doing just a brief upshift. I have great spool and torque so I often short-shift as traction is harder to come by than power, esp in street trim. 27 races without any DNF/DNS etc, I'll stick with our plan. Cosy said that it will live all day at 9k and can touch 10k once in a while with no issues . I'll just trust them on that...

I don't recall what oil pump we are using, sorry. We just got our motor back from Cosy and they made some super-secret "upgrades" for us. We may even go drysump if we get everything else sorted out.
Even when I asked Ali about their "off the shelf" longblocks he said 9500 was the recommended redline.
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Old 03-12-2009, 10:32 AM   #20
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Mick tossed out nearly identical cam specs to mine...of course mine were ordered with a different LSA/LCA than what would be used here.

It was rumored that ESX had-had issues eating the #3 main at in the mid 9000 rpms and harmonics was the suspect (hard to prove). I also believe that was a 79mm stroke crank.

As for the video in the philipines, ok, so it didn't eat a bearing at 9200rpm for making one split second run in a controlled environment...put in on the track for a season and see if it still holds up.
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Old 03-12-2009, 11:17 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
It's so different to spin a 400 WHP engine to 9000+ than a 250 WHP engine. The forces of the engine are far more extreme. I like to think that I've actually done it. I've pushed engines past their limits and then built new setups that I can push like this longer and harder.

We should ask the OP what they want.

What's your power goals? Sorry I did not read the 11 pages of your main thread?

Do you actually want to make power to redline?

Street only? Drag? Track Racing?

How long do you want it to run for? 1000 miles? 100,000 miles? Longevity and power is a trade off

If the plan is to spin to 9000+ once in a while on a straight road then a stock pump with the pan and baffle will probably work. If you plan to track the car then I recommend an Accusump as you cannot afford to lose oil at the higher RPM's.

As for cams, if you want power at redline then the original cam specs I supplied or the others wrxsti.l supplied IMO will do just that.

Here is a short list of my current engine setup
Darton Sleeved Closed Deck Case
Cobb Tuner Crank (K1)
Pauter Rods
CP Pistons (5 thou piston to cylinder clearance)
ACL Race Bearings (1.5 thou main, 2 thou rod)
V7 Large Port heads, over ported
Supertech 1/2mm larger intake/exhaust valves (Nitride intake, Inconel exhaust)
Dual springs
Kelford 272 intake, 264 exhaust cams
Custom 3 stage oil dry sump with integrated accusump
GT35R rotated turbo - 400WHP/400TQ @ 20psi - Spinning to 7600 as I don't need to rev any higher.
and new for this season, Antilag

oh my backup block is a darton sleeved open deck block with a Cobb tuner crank, forged rods, Wiseco pistons (3.5 thou clearance) ACL Race bearings, 1.5 thou main, 2 thou rod, STI heads with dual springs and supertech valves
I want my car to spin 9000+rpm momentarily rev limit and I don’t want to have all the power only to redline. My power goals are 500+WHP with a lot torque. I want to give attention to high response of my motor. I am using my car like Street racing, Track racing and Hill Climbs.

What do you think about these camshafts?
Kelford 199-L non-AVCS camshafts
Intake - 282 Duration w/ 11.7mm lift
Exhaust - 278 Duration w/ 11.25mm lift

My old EJ207 has 8000rpm rev limit w/ stock sti v7 camshafts, stock sti crank, Arrow rods, Omega pistons, stock sti oil pump, stock oil pan, stock valvetrain, ported and polished heads, APS SR55 turbo and etc… and I had 390whp at 1.8bar boost for 50.000km.
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Old 03-12-2009, 12:53 PM   #22
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Subscribing....
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Old 03-12-2009, 01:25 PM   #23
mick_the_ginge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leoimpreza View Post
I want my car to spin 9000+rpm momentarily rev limit and I don’t want to have all the power only to redline. My power goals are 500+WHP with a lot torque. I want to give attention to high response of my motor. I am using my car like Street racing, Track racing and Hill Climbs.

What do you think about these camshafts?
Kelford 199-L non-AVCS camshafts
Intake - 282 Duration w/ 11.7mm lift
Exhaust - 278 Duration w/ 11.25mm lift

My old EJ207 has 8000rpm rev limit w/ stock sti v7 camshafts, stock sti crank, Arrow rods, Omega pistons, stock sti oil pump, stock oil pan, stock valvetrain, ported and polished heads, APS SR55 turbo and etc… and I had 390whp at 1.8bar boost for 50.000km.
Ok, lets look at this a different way.
You have a GT35R style turbo on a stroked 2L, even with the extra displacement the engine is going to be mostly dead until boost comes on at 5000+ rpm. The high compression is going to help a little low down but the fact of the matter is the boost = power and you will not be getting real boost until the higher rpm's anyway. I ran a GT30R on a 2L and it was a dog until spooled... but when it did the car rocked.

So why care about what's on the left of the graph, you are only going to be making power and torque at 5000+ anyway so you need cams that flow at the higher rpms.

The ones you have suggest I expect will work, the 11.7mm is HUGE. The lobes are sure to hit the castings so you will need to clerance them. 11.7mm is going to put the valves really close to the pistons as well, especially if you are running a high compression piston which I expect will have very little valve relief. You will have to clay the pistons to see how much clearance you have to the valves. You need to factor in streach as I mentioned before to spin to 9000+. I would GUESS you are going to need 40 to 60 thou clearance at a min, don't forget to rock the piston to calculate the highest point.

My cams, 272 intake, 10.7mm lift and 264 exhaust 10.5 mm lift are not going to work for you as I mentioned earler as they already show signs of falling off at 6200 rpm.

You know 500 WHP means you are going to have to run over 30 psi (over 2 bar) on that turbo.....

Sorry to sound a little negative, I promise I'm trying not to sound like this, I've just been here before and don't want your beautiful build failing to meet your expectations.
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:16 PM   #24
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^^^ already have
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Old 03-12-2009, 02:19 PM   #25
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I had to clearance my heads for 11.3mm cams...around 10.9-1.0 should be about when clearancing starts being needed.

I had to clearance not only the castings but the 'girdle' like cam caps. The front two caps on AVCS heads...on my usdm STi heads at least.

I think the oiling system is almost as good as he can have while still having a wetsump. I will have a similar setup but with one more adder for better control of oil and less aeration. But its last piece is being worked on at the machine shop.
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