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Old 03-12-2009, 02:16 PM   #1
Greg555
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Default Rally car motor build. My turn to ask questions :)

Need help with calculating this engine stuff for my next rally car.


Here is what I want:

A lot of torque.

To give you an idea Subaru Rally team USA supposedly have 500 foot pounds of torque in Dave Mirra's car but lets not discuss this here please.

KEEP IN MIND WE HAVE TO USE 34mm RESTRICTOR and I will be running ALS
Car will always run on Sunoco 104+ race gas and will be professionally tuned

Available parts that I have laying around:

ver 8 heads
US STI heads
ver 7 complete block that needs bearings
EJ22T closed deck block from US legacy T with million miles
04 STI crank
2x 2.5 NA cranks (not sure what year)
IHI twin scroll turbos from ver 8
ViPec engine management (I'm a distributor)


I was considering building up the closed deck 2.2 but after 6 hrs of reading threads I am more confused than before. I am not liking the phase1 bearing situation so I think my V7 block would be a better choice.

2.0 in that V7 block is awesome in rallying but what do you guys think about building a 2.2 stroker with the V8 heads???

I would get custom pistons, rods and head gasket and that's what I need help with. Also what kind of block/crank treatments I sould consider.
Also I should mention that I don't want to spend $5K on the build.


Thanks a lot

Greg
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Last edited by Greg555; 03-12-2009 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:07 PM   #2
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well luckley you have alot laying around, if your wanting torque you may wasnt to go with a 2.2 or a 2.5, i think a build 2.5 would be better for the torque you want, and with those v8 heads it will flow good, but that might be a moot point because of the restrictor. the nitride coating is nice on the cranks
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:18 PM   #3
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yeah, I got a lot of Subaru junk that accumulated over last 11 years since I bought my 98 RS

I think I will go with the 2.2 in the v7 block

For that setup do I use 2.5 NA crank or 2.5 STI?

I need to figure out rods, pistons and gaskets

I'm not afraid of running higher compression ratio since its a race car
Also with restrictor rally cars usually go face down past 5500 rpm

Greg
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:30 PM   #4
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well a quick off the cough estimate is you'll choke flow a bit north of 600cfm (pending a lot of things) so I wouldn't run the V8 head and would opt for the smaller USDM sti ports.

If your ultimate goal is peak tq alone...then get the biggest stroker motor and shortest rod ratio you can, with as much compression and boost as it can take...now your tq curve will be more like a tq mountain peak but you'll have gobs of it. Put that with 4.44s and you'll have even more tq at the ground.

With what you have though a 2.1 short rod or 2.2L or a 2.35L short rod are your options.
Of those, I'd choose the 2.2 or the 2.35L if peak tq is truly the goal. All of them will hit choke flow very easily.

Personally with my bias I'd still vote a destroked EJ25, to give the displacement but also to aid with restrictor whoes...internal geometry, cams and manifolds will be crucial for squeezing everything through the restrictor and into the motor...

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 03-12-2009 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:03 PM   #5
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The stock STI heads are sort of sold (sold but didnt get the money yet) so I am leaning towards using V8 heads

What king of combilations I could use to acheive the 2.2 or 2.35 and what kind of CR is possible?

Can I use these pistons? http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ght=2.2+stoker

Greg.
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:07 PM   #6
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man gotta give props to a man who knows his stuff, i say try to pick up an sti block and an 04-05 wrx crank, grab some 100mm pistons, and some nice stout rods, get it put together andyou got yourself a 2.35l that can still rev if needed, but still has some displacement. get some cams that will help down low and mid rpm and get the manifold ported and get the flow as smooth as possible. this should be a killer setup for low end torque. but still be able to take the most advantage of the restrictor. and dont forget, we like pictures around here
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:24 PM   #7
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So lets say we're going with v7 block making it 2.2 with v8 heads

What pistons, rods and gaskets do I need?

Greg
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:41 PM   #8
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regular gasket for a 2.0, and to get a 2.2 you need a stroker kit, the sti crank only makes it a 2.123, which really isnt worth it. or you would need to sleeve it and bore it out, which comes back to doing a 2.3 liter
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Old 03-12-2009, 08:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanathanq83 View Post
regular gasket for a 2.0, and to get a 2.2 you need a stroker kit, the sti crank only makes it a 2.123, which really isnt worth it. or you would need to sleeve it and bore it out, which comes back to doing a 2.3 liter
...so with the 2 liter block I can only get 2.123? How do i go bigger to 2.2 or 2.34?


Greg
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Old 03-12-2009, 09:18 PM   #10
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2.34 is 79mm stroked EJ22 block or a destroked EJ25

pick your route. I'd take the latter
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Old 03-12-2009, 09:18 PM   #11
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IF you can afford it, maybe a lysholm supercharger? Then go with the high"er" compression destroked 2.5 that Homemade WRX suggested. That way you have INSTANT massive torque the moment you mash the gas....
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Old 03-12-2009, 09:44 PM   #12
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no superchargers for me. I will have ALS to help with the lag issue

so with 2.0 I get 2.123456 and with 2.2 I could get 2.34

When you say 2.2 do you have in mind NA 2.2 or the legacy turbo block?

What can be done about the phase 1 bearing situation on the 2.2T and how expensive does it get?

Greg
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Old 03-12-2009, 10:46 PM   #13
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you can have the crank ground for the thrust, or the block ground for the crank. they have differant thrust bearings. you can take the 2.2 with the 2.5 crank and get where you want.

as for price, 2.5 turbo cranks are reletivley cheap, then you just get forged rods, a set of forged pistons, you should go .20 over, because its hard to hone a block to fit a stock piston. with that you will need a gasket kit, around 300, headgaskets around 150-200. would advise cylinder head bolts 200. usdm sti heads, with a valve job, set of cams and vavlesprings if you are wanting to rev to 9, but with the restrictor, im not sure it will be worth it to rev that high. and a set of rod and main bearings. also a new oil pump and water pump, then the basics like belts, and motor mounts if you want. you should be able to do it for less than 5k, but you will also need a tune.
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanathanq83 View Post
regular gasket for a 2.0, and to get a 2.2 you need a stroker kit, the sti crank only makes it a 2.123, which really isnt worth it
aaah, say it ain't so...
actually I am going this route, with slighly higher CR pistons, it should work very well
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:41 AM   #15
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I still say keep the ver 8 crank and sell the block and get an EJ257 block antilag for low end and longer rod ratio to help carry out the choke point a bit further...it'll still give you 2.34 (at 99.5mm) or 2.36 (at 100mm).

Of course this won't give a huge torque peak but a longer torque band...if you want a peak tq value you don't want to go my route but with the biggest motor with shortest rod ratio you can.
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:13 AM   #16
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just so you know you can run a phase 2 crank in a phase 1 block, you just put the bearing in the #3 position instead of #5
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:32 AM   #17
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"just so you know you can run a phase 2 crank in a phase 1 block, you just put the bearing in the #3 position instead of #5 "

is that true? ive never heard that before
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:53 AM   #18
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lol no actually thats wrong, you will have to have either the crank cut to fit the block of the block cut to fit the crank, and you will have to fun both #3 and #5 thrust
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Old 03-13-2009, 12:46 PM   #19
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looky here

http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthrea...=39629&page=28

"brydon, we used the same ACL main bearings in that EJ25D block as we did my EJ251 block. You just have to put the thrust bearing on journal 3 instead of 5. I guess if you wanted to run dual thrust bearings... you could machine the block, but what is the ****ing point?

YOU CAN RUN PHASE 2 BEARINGS IN A PHASE 1 BLOCK."

"So I can put the phase 2 crank in with no clearance issues, using the #3 thrust bearing in proper locatioin, correct? I'm going to start looking around for parts for building it up when I take it out and swap the k in."

"yes.. as long as you put the main bearings in the proper location. your fine. The older phase1 blocks dont have quite as much room for aftermarket rods. So, if you use stock STI rods, which i recommend because there is nothing wrong with them, you will have no issues at all."
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Old 03-13-2009, 02:49 PM   #20
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phase 1 main bearings are 48mm not 52mm
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Old 03-13-2009, 04:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanathanq83 View Post
phase 1 rod bearings are 48mm not 52mm
fixed it for you...the phase two cranks can drop in but some guys are saying they are having issues with the thrust clearances.

I'd still machine the #5 main and go rear thrust.
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Old 03-13-2009, 05:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
fixed it for you...the phase two cranks can drop in but some guys are saying they are having issues with the thrust clearances.

I'd still machine the #5 main and go rear thrust.

thank you for your support, seams like sean just missed out on subaru 101
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Old 03-13-2009, 05:52 PM   #23
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how how expensive is this?
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Old 03-13-2009, 06:51 PM   #24
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how expensive is what?
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Old 03-13-2009, 06:55 PM   #25
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we were talking about phase 2 crank in phase 1 block and work related to fitting the thrust bearing
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