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Old 03-20-2009, 10:20 PM   #1
Back Road Runner
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Default Wee, new exhaust on - did some road dynoing

Power results. This is an accumulation of 3 run sets (both ways on same stretch of road) averaged to a mean level. I plotted my current exhaust against my past dyno runs.

The setup includes TWE's rally header courtesy of Section 8, Car-Sound's 59956 high flow cat and Hooker Max Flow muffler courtesy of my brother and his previous exhaust.




Basically the Dyno Dynamics run is my base line. All it has is an I-Speed SRS-10 reflash.

The second run set - blue and red. This is my car with geddesk2's throttle body spacer and Grimmspeed's 8mm phenolic spacer. TBS = smoother power delivery, IMS = tilting power band towards low rpm. Notice how much more low end was produced. Peak torque was set to the dyno run. The parts did not make power, just reshaped to the torque cuver.

The thrid run set - green and yellow. This is my new exhaust. All else is the same. TWE header, Car Sound 59956 cat, Hooker Max Flow muffler, 2.5" piping everywhere. You should notice that I can remove the 8mm intake manifold spacer and retilt the torque curve back towards the top end.

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Old 03-20-2009, 11:35 PM   #2
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inb4 "boxer" rumble...
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Old 03-20-2009, 11:41 PM   #3
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thats amazing! i am very impressed with the gains

why the extra C shaped bend right were the trans hanger is?

how do they sound?!
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Old 03-21-2009, 11:03 AM   #4
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The bend is there to get the correct length. They are about 60" on the primaries and the cross bars are halfway. This is what TWE built for some rally cars. It never really went into consumer production though, and they now just sell the 4 to 1 sets you see on their webpage. You can read through some of Section 8's old threads on this header as he was the original owner and has commented on it a bit. He ran it on his car for 12k miles before selling his RS and stepping to Jeeps.

One thing I'll note that's interesting is that you basically have 100 lb-ft of torque at idle. Stock dropped off at 2k, starting out at only 50-60 lb-ft. The first big bump on the low end was from the intake manifold spacer, and this was a relatively noticeable bump up from stock. However, it still rolled off sharply below 2k. This header keeps extending that down all the way to idle.

The top end is still mild, but I don't expect changes until I change cams, maybe a summer project or something. I may try pulling the intake manifold spacer off and bump up top end again. You can see that the torque curve does lean slightly towards the bottom end right now. I'd like to get the intake manifold ported and polished too which should bump the torque band with wider runners, although I am uncertain how much porting can actually be done. I don't really expect the ability to do significant work with it other then opening up the bottom part and doing some smoothing. If this is worth it, I don't know. Smoother flow is smoother flow. I gotta do something with the intake too. One problem I have is relatively hot intake temps. The intake manifold gets hot to the touch and data logging number show pretty raised intake temps relative to ambient. I may play with a CAI and some ceramic coating and/or wrap to see if I can improve flow and keep temps chilly. The only thing left after that is internals which comes when funds and a willingness to yank out the engine comes about.

They sound kind of ricey, lol. I'll get video clips up maybe today. It's the same setup that was on my bro's FXT, well it is the same setup. He swapped up to a 3" Madddad exhaust (sexy stuff by the way), and I got his 2.5" exhaust. At lower rpms, it sounds the same. It higher rpms, it gets a little raspy/buzzy, but I'm curious if something's hitting or if it's some of the piping that's simply resonating. Some header wrap could tone it down if so. From 3k to redline, it's different then my bro's FXT, so I'm curious if it can be fixed.

Last edited by Back Road Runner; 03-21-2009 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:04 PM   #5
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Got a sound video of revving up and taking off?
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Old 03-21-2009, 12:11 PM   #6
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I have one of that with other parts behind the header.

TWE header + I think Thrush glass pack + stock FXT muffler, um, piping against rear diff guard and glass pack against heat shield under the car so there's some buzzing, and it's got a hole where the temp sensor should be before I filled it later. This is what bolt on jumble I drove around on for a week before I got the car into the shop to get my bro's exhaust fitted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBJWrybxFfM

Now it's less buzzy but louder. I'll get another vid up of the current setup.
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Old 03-21-2009, 01:27 PM   #7
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you can get the plastic IM. from the year 2004 IIRC.
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Old 03-21-2009, 01:40 PM   #8
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The newer ones are supposed to be better, but I'm uncertain about fit. I would assume there'd need to be modification, and I'd expect some attachment points for things disappeared or got moved around. Although I wouldn't mind swapping up to the newer version, I don't know how straight forward it might be.

I got some video clips, but I haven't pieced together anything yet. As well, I've looked at the header some, and there's a couple locations the pipes rest against each other that buzz. I've got a bunch of spare header wrap, so I'll take care of that too.
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Old 03-21-2009, 02:07 PM   #9
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that is one crazy ass header
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Old 03-21-2009, 06:45 PM   #10
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There, vid up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCc4D9ERNVU

In car part is windows down. Camera FOV is goofy if I don't zoom in, so it looks fast motion taking off...forgot about that. The header does buzz a little from the pipes. I'm not sure if this translates to the exhaust note or if it's just something I hear in the cabin.
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Old 03-21-2009, 10:03 PM   #11
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We've got what may be the prototype for that header on our RS. I can vouch for the gains you saw on the dyno. Irish Mikes Racing used it as part of their 300+ hp EJ25 world challenge program. Fitment and ability to bolt up midpipes aside, the header is excellent!!!

Jay
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Old 03-21-2009, 10:19 PM   #12
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I'm curious how much ground clearance you have with those full length headers? I remember on regular style twe's the long u bend on the driver's side dropped a good 1-2" below the crossmember and was always the first thing to get scratched.
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Old 03-21-2009, 11:41 PM   #13
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It's tucked decent enough, but you're bound to scratch anything under the car, especially if lowered.

No actual dyno numbers, road dyno pulling rpm with Romraider, mapping it with Data Log Lab, and transposing properly resized curves onto my original dyno pull. Actual numbers, I don't know. Everything's scaled to my early dyno run, useful for relative comparisons, but it doesn't necessarily represent real life power. I basically make the assumption that the Dyno Dynamics pull was accurate. On a relative scale, a Stage 2 WRX 2.0L pulled 200HP, Stage 2 WRX 2.5L 270HP. A stock, new Legacy turbo did around 160-170HP, a 60F, damp day. That's the "real" I'm working with.
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Old 04-04-2009, 07:41 PM   #14
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Went to a local dyno/F&F day.

The movie's actually better then you'd expect. I got the car dynoed and referenced back to my road dyno plots. Numbers look good. I've added a cone filter on TB intake since , humorous but works if you can run a scoop and baffle it against the engine heat. It's loud as heck though when the throttle plate's open. Anywho, dyno results:
TQ:153 lb-ft
HP: 141hp
90% peak torque from 2.2k-5.5k rpm, 80% between 1.7k and 5.7k rpm
Peak torque at 4.3k, peak HP at 5.4k rpm.

The cone filter actually helped the top end a bit. I'll scan the dyno results and run another road dyno to compare so I have some direct reference. The dyno was done on a dynojet, SAE corrected. Numbers are on par within my road dyno results which is cool. I know there's comments about the ends not being all that accurate, and I need a current road dyno to compare directly. That should let my extrapolate realistic results from the road dyno, or close to it if it requires end correction.

I still have a couple things I still want to do, P&P intake manifold, TB, ceramic coating, and step to a SRS-20 reflash. Later down the road, all I have to do is toss on a set of P&Ped heads and some spicy cams and step to the SRS-30 reflash. I'd venture to guess max would be numbers about 160 lb-ft/hp range.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:59 PM   #15
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Current real dyno results:

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Old 04-06-2009, 03:08 PM   #16
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1) any idea why you're going lean at 4500RPM?

2) That lean spike at 3000 is hella scary. I presume the car is still in Closed Loop here and you're unable to reflash it?

3) It's interesting to me how similar in shape our torque curves are with that bump and dip starting at 2500RPM even though we have several different intake side mods

4) I am a sad panda that you're putting down 10lbft and 20hp more than I am on roughly the same setup
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Old 04-06-2009, 03:32 PM   #17
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Well, it's a SRS-10 flash, and I assume it's not really all that ideal for the new parts. I assume it may be so lean because that is my cruising rpm. Maybe it learned to be that lean. I don't know. I have never reset the ECU the entire time either. Maybe I should, but it should also relearn anything in a couple tank fulls. It's a locked flash, or unreadable or whatever they do to protect their tune.

Raw numbers are debateable. The dynos I've used may be slightly exaggerated. I don't know. The intake specifically didn't do a whole lot. The Grimmspeed phenolic spacer did noticeably bump low end, but nothing massive and just around the 1.5k-2k range. From a scientific standpoint, the increase in runner length is minimal in terms of changing the powerband. The rest of the intake really did nothing all that noticeable to the bottom end. The only thing that significantly changed that was the header. I think the intake I have now is what's giving me the HP bump. I just have a cone filter on the TB, and that did noticeably bump top end. It's a bit ghetto and a bad idea until I get some cold air directly to it (hood scoop) and the heat blocked from it (baffle). Hurray for MAP based cars, lol. There are differences in our curves, and that is probably resulting in the differences between our setups.

I plan to do some data logging and see if I can pinpoint any outstanding issues.

I do plan to step to a SRS-20 flash which is tuned more for this setup, and I would venture to guess it may be a little more consistent. Then again, I may look into an OpenECU route as well.

This is my old A/F plot, completely stock engine, just the SRS-10 flash.

[IMG][/IMG]

There could be something with the way they tuned it because you do see a bump around 3k and and lower as well. Maybe it was tuned in and just accentuated with the current hardware. I don't know.

Last edited by Back Road Runner; 04-06-2009 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 04-06-2009, 07:43 PM   #18
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Hmm, did some road dynoing, did 7 pulls, two of which included some other sensor readings to see if there's a hint of something going wrong. All the runs drove normal but I was getting pretty low numbers when plotted out with Data Log Lab, like below stock. I don't know. The torque shape matches what the dyno run shows, and it's running normal. So... I think it's a temp issue if it is accurate. Intake temps are a good 50F above ambient. That may be the culprit. Working back through SAE corrections using logged intake temps, I get the correct end result. The downside is I've never done any of my other plots strictly off intake temps as my SAE temperature reading, so I don't have a great representation. Now my past runs were done with the stock intake and a little cooler air. However, intake temps were still above ambient, maybe 20F-30F which would put previous numbers off 5-10 lb-ft or so maybe. It all depends on relative temps though. I'll play with it later...

I'll note outside temp is 39F. Measured intake temps measure from 81F-93F. It should be hinted that filter on TB sucks unless properly implemented. I'm sure this is why short ram intakes tend to catch flak too. They aren't bad ideas, just poorly implemented. It'll be really nice once I can get some cold air directly to it. My biggest worry was the abundant complaining of loss of low end from doing this kind of intake. I really didn't notice anything really. Dyno info doesn't point to issues either. Heat is really my only concern.

Pic for reference, ghetto but will be better once implemented properly. It is mostly a test of concept and a justifier of me spending money on a carbon fiber hood with scoop. It's the only incarnation of light hood that exists for the older Foresters. The filter's massive and runs a nice 6" down to 2.5" velocity stack into the TB.



Yes, you can laugh all you want about the filter and the duct tape.

Last edited by Back Road Runner; 04-06-2009 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 04-07-2009, 12:01 PM   #19
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Sounds like my YZ 250 that is a massive header and duct tape isnt so bad
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:30 PM   #20
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Well, after some testing...
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1741284

My stock intake is back on.

I've got a SRS-20 flash on the way.

And...I stopped off at Midas and had a small glasspack added to the midpipe to tone down the exhaust some:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIGHeSGIyHo

Me likey. This toned down the loudness a good bit, enough so where I don't feel like I'm annoying everyone within a 2 block radius of me, plus I don't have any highway drone, just a subtle exhaust undertone that's no louder then the wind/tire noise. It got a little less rice and a little more mean sounding.

I was planning to get a fresh dyno run with the stock intake back on and with the SRS-20 flash, but stuff was rescheduled, and it looks like I'll need to wait if I can't squeak in Sunday after auto-x. I'll at least road dyno it anyways for comparison.
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:53 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Hmm, did some road dynoing, did 7 pulls, two of which included some other sensor readings to see if there's a hint of something going wrong. All the runs drove normal but I was getting pretty low numbers when plotted out with Data Log Lab, like below stock. I don't know. The torque shape matches what the dyno run shows, and it's running normal. So... I think it's a temp issue if it is accurate. Intake temps are a good 50F above ambient. That may be the culprit. Working back through SAE corrections using logged intake temps, I get the correct end result. The downside is I've never done any of my other plots strictly off intake temps as my SAE temperature reading, so I don't have a great representation. Now my past runs were done with the stock intake and a little cooler air. However, intake temps were still above ambient, maybe 20F-30F which would put previous numbers off 5-10 lb-ft or so maybe. It all depends on relative temps though. I'll play with it later...

I'll note outside temp is 39F. Measured intake temps measure from 81F-93F. It should be hinted that filter on TB sucks unless properly implemented. I'm sure this is why short ram intakes tend to catch flak too. They aren't bad ideas, just poorly implemented. It'll be really nice once I can get some cold air directly to it. My biggest worry was the abundant complaining of loss of low end from doing this kind of intake. I really didn't notice anything really. Dyno info doesn't point to issues either. Heat is really my only concern.

Pic for reference, ghetto but will be better once implemented properly. It is mostly a test of concept and a justifier of me spending money on a carbon fiber hood with scoop. It's the only incarnation of light hood that exists for the older Foresters. The filter's massive and runs a nice 6" down to 2.5" velocity stack into the TB.



Yes, you can laugh all you want about the filter and the duct tape.
No MAP/MAF?
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:38 PM   #22
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MAP, you can just barely see it on the left edge on the intake manifold. It just reads absolute pressure inside the plenum area.

If you read through the link I posted about my intake testing, I did find out that without the stock "torque box," air fuel ratios were messy and there was some loss of low and midrange power. Basically in order to get good results, you kind of need to recreate the stock intake in one form or another or at least the inline resonator ("torque box") and other resonator on the intake. I think the need for the torque box is because the plenum is so small. The plenum would normally act as the inline resonator, but it's size sort of makes the torque box the inline resonator instead. The other resonator seems to targer lower frequencies, either that or the piping does it...or a combination. It's something I haven't tested.

Long story short, cone filter on TB, while novel, it doesn't work on this engine. I think it would be good if the plenum was sufficiently large. One could probably run a resonator plus pipe section in the form of a short ram intake and do well as long as you can pull in cold air.
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Old 04-28-2009, 03:59 PM   #23
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Default In-head port length...

As a life long gear head, but recent ej25 hacker, i was surprised to find the large difference in exhaust port volume/length between 1/3 2/4 in the heads themselves. I don't believe that this was true in the older 8v engines, and the intake tracks are near twins but the rear valve on the rear port is nearly two inches further from the outlet than the furthest front port. An "equal length" header will need to be visually unequal outside the head and its a mystery to me what they were aiming for with the stock manifold because it certainly didn't seem to recognize this. Does anybody have any numbers on this? Does your design include this?
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:17 AM   #24
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Dyno pics are borked.
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Old 05-20-2009, 11:20 AM   #25
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Pics show up now or at least for me, so


Yeah, the exhaust paths are different lengths. I think all of the aftermarket EL headers actually account for this. I know Cobb knew about this when they designed their header. Rallitek and OBX are copies of Cobb. TWE knows this and I'm sure has accounted for it. I'll also say that an inch or two off isn't really a bad thing. When building them, you'll never get the lengths quite exact anyways, and there will always be some variation in length. An inch or two is close enough.

The diameter is the bigger factor in the rpm focus. This is primarily what defines the flow speeds and efficiencies. Length can add pressure wave tuning which can pinpoint a small rpm area and further boost efficiency in that area. Minor variation in pipe length isn't as big a deal. The bigger deal is promoting smooth, linear flow throughout the system so you port and polish heads, intake manifold, throttle body, use mandrel bends in the exhaust and gradual and smooth merge collector, and generally try and maintain relatively even flow on the intake and exhaust within reason including emissions and sound reducing needs. The flow velocity focus is an energy thing. We like smaller diameters for low and mid rpm because we get higher flow speeds. Higher flow speeds mean higher kinetic energy in the moving air. This helps promote continual flow despite the pulse type flow of the actual combustion process. Inline resonators help dampen the pulse behavior for the rest of the system, promoting more continuous flow through most of the piping.
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