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Old 03-22-2009, 02:56 PM   #1
Cstmboxermotorsports
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Default Reving to 8000rpm

OK now i know there are these threads already but everyone wants to run 8000rpm on stock internals. Not me.

I have the following

EJ205 long block

JE pistons
Eagle Rods
Supertech Nitrate Valves
Supertech Dual valve springs with titainum retainers
ACL Race Rod and main bearings
Brian Crower Stage 2 Cams

I want to be able to rev to at least 8000rpm to make the most out of the turbo I will be running. Let me know if it is ok to go to 8000rpm or will i have an oil problem?
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Old 03-22-2009, 03:15 PM   #2
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cross drill crankmain journals..like the ej207..
also check your cams specs..manufacturer's
recommended redline..
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Old 03-22-2009, 03:23 PM   #3
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What kind of oil pump are you using?

By the way, this is the wrong forum. I'll move it for you
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Old 03-22-2009, 04:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cstmboxermotorsports View Post
OK now i know there are these threads already but everyone wants to run 8000rpm on stock internals. Not me.

I have the following

EJ205 long block

JE pistons
Eagle Rods
Supertech Nitrate Valves
Supertech Dual valve springs with titainum retainers
ACL Race Rod and main bearings
Brian Crower Stage 2 Cams

I want to be able to rev to at least 8000rpm to make the most out of the turbo I will be running. Let me know if it is ok to go to 8000rpm or will i have an oil problem?
I recommed them since you are close to them

http://www.innovativetuning.com/
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:56 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxscuby View Post
cross drill crankmain journals..like the ej207..
that would require way more machine work, including welding up the existing cross drill holes since they have a different timing.
Cheaper and easier to just go buy the newer EJ205 crank (p/n ends with 240).
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Old 03-23-2009, 01:30 PM   #6
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can you find a 207 crank? Match up the pump needs with your bearing clearances...
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:09 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
that would require way more machine work, including welding up the existing cross drill holes since they have a different timing.
Cheaper and easier to just go buy the newer EJ205 crank (p/n ends with 240).
I may be wrong here Matt, but wasn't the consensus (or leading opinion) in the Crank Crossdrilling thread that it was an innovation for low RPM reliability, and a liability at high RPM?
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:56 PM   #8
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I think it depends how its done. You could open it up too much and hurt the overall pressure to a point where high RPMs would be hurt but could also counter balance that with bigger pumps. Also the angling and positioning based on piston fire points will be crucial.

I don't think it would be wise for a non-machine professional without intimate knowledge of the EJ engine to start drilling away...
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Old 03-23-2009, 11:43 PM   #9
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The stock double cross drilled will work fine; purchased NEW from Subaru for 2.0L(all 2.0L cranks are now sold double cross drilled). At TDC there is still oil being fed to the rod bearings. Not matter what, oil still has to go THROUGH the clearance between the rod bearing and crank. You will need to just UP your oil pump in shimming or go bigger volume to help aid in higher revs.

2.0L non-AVCS I'd say get a 11mm oil pump. AVCS heads you want to at least go 12mm oil pump to keep that there like how the JDM model is doing it stock. The STOCK STi Version 6 uses a 10mm oil pump, however I'm unsure if it's shimmed or not but that's what the pump is stamped with when I looked at that motor a few days ago.
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Old 03-24-2009, 01:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuJi K View Post
The stock double cross drilled will work fine; purchased NEW from Subaru for 2.0L(all 2.0L cranks are now sold double cross drilled). At TDC there is still oil being fed to the rod bearings. Not matter what, oil still has to go THROUGH the clearance between the rod bearing and crank. You will need to just UP your oil pump in shimming or go bigger volume to help aid in higher revs.

2.0L non-AVCS I'd say get a 11mm oil pump. AVCS heads you want to at least go 12mm oil pump to keep that there like how the JDM model is doing it stock. The STOCK STi Version 6 uses a 10mm oil pump, however I'm unsure if it's shimmed or not but that's what the pump is stamped with when I looked at that motor a few days ago.
Just a couple of additions:

First, if you plan on reving your motor past 7000 rpm, it is assumed by all of us here that you have an oil pressure gauge in the car, and potentially someway to record or log it. If you do not have this, you should consider your self very well informed on how you are going to destroy your engine.

Once you confirm that you do infact have a method for tracking oil pressure, you can start on the task of deciding what you need to do.

As was mentioned above, the new 11mm pump appears to work well, and the internal casting is a bit cleaner then the older 12mm pump. If in fact you did read the MANY threads on reving BUILT motors above 7k, you will have seen one of several posts from Phil. As he suggests, the 11mm pump may be a better alternative then the 12mm pump due to some design changes.

A well setup engine with the 11mm pump can usually maintain sufficient oil pressure at higher rpms. As is obvious when talking about oil pressure, oil viscosity and temperature are critical. Using the oil pressure gauge you have installed will enable to you determine how your oil pressure not only varies with rpm, but also with temperature and viscosity.

One minor correction, the JDM cars with Intake only AVCS with a factory rev limit of 8250rpm use the 10mm pump, not the 12mm. The 12mm is used on the dual avcs engines.

Jeff Sponaugle
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Old 03-24-2009, 02:02 AM   #11
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Jeff-
I'm planning a high-rev NA EJ257/251 for an RS, shooting for 8200 RPM safe max. There's a thread in the NA forum about it. Is the 11mm pump what you recommend, and is the rear oil galley plug on the driver's side head a good place for my oil sending unit? This is on SOHC RS heads.
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Old 03-24-2009, 02:07 AM   #12
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I wonder why they sold the 12mm oil pump so early then if in Japan didn't have dual AVCS until the hatch models??? Or am I missing something..... I know the castings was embedded into the valve cover and the newer heads, as seen in '06 WRX heads. humm.... interesting... I do have the 12mm oil pump sitting next to my pillow on my bed from Japanparts. haha
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Old 03-24-2009, 08:38 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS View Post
I may be wrong here Micah, but wasn't the consensus (or leading opinion) in the Crank Crossdrilling thread that it was an innovation for low RPM reliability, and a liability at high RPM?

It is nothing more than a theory for now...it could be suspect however looking at the fact that the crank design being mentioned is used in the Spec C cars from the factory and are known to spend 9k rpm on a factory built bottom end.
So I'd say the cross drilling myth is busted as to cross-drilling being the cause of our failed rod bearings. Oil timing however may not...yes, I said timing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuJi K View Post
I wonder why they sold the 12mm oil pump so early then if in Japan didn't have dual AVCS until the hatch models??? Or am I missing something.....
legacy B4 was dual AVCS from back to 01 or something.
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Old 03-24-2009, 08:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post

It is nothing more than a theory for now...it could be suspect however looking at the fact that the crank design being mentioned is used in the Spec C cars from the factory and are known to spend 9k rpm on a factory built bottom end.
So I'd say the cross drilling myth is busted as to cross-drilling being the cause of our failed rod bearings. Oil timing however may not...yes, I said timing.
Okay, yes or no question- Should I screw around with drilling/machining/otherwise altering my EJ25 crank to hit 8200 RPM safely?

If so, what specifically should I have done?

I apologize if that's made clear in another thread, but my searches here turn up either terrible signal-to-noise threads, or impossible tech geek-to-layman ratios.
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Old 03-24-2009, 09:06 AM   #15
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HAHA, I still have no luck searching for things too...for 8200 you don't need to drill (but you're going to need some healthy cams). You are however now discussing another crank that has more crank-rod angle and more load on the rod journal. Keep good clearances, good oil (condition and actual quality...cooler, good sump pickup clearnce, external filter with more gentle turns, monitor oil pressure at the back of the galleys) and don't get too greedy with timing. You should be fine.

Drilling for more direct oiling at/near TDC would be beneficial (like having insurance).

It's your money and your call. Personally if you were going to have custom machining and had to buy the crank, a billet crank starts becoming a real good value.
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Old 03-24-2009, 09:15 AM   #16
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I'm doing this as cheaply as possible. The only goal is to give myself some safe overhead for 'tweener autocross courses so I can hold second gear for an extra 2-3 seconds instead of having a 2-3-2 shift going into a corner that nets me no additional speed. I plan to find/spec cams that will put the torque band between 3500ish-7500, but that's a separate issue. I just want to know what it takes to make the motor stay healthy at 8000-8200 RPM for brief periods of time and lots of WOT time in the power band, for a few seasons.

I won't be dropping money on a billet crank- if I had that kind of cash I'd make a car that was actually fast with a full turbo swap and a basic bigger turbo setup, blah blah blah. I'm just working with what I have, as best I can. So, with my stock EJ25 crank, can I just use it as-is for this, or do I need to have it massaged? Can you point me to something I can show my engine rebuilder that specifically tells him what to do?
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Old 03-24-2009, 10:12 AM   #17
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do it then...if you're just occassionally stretching out a gear on an auto-x course...

oil temp and pressure are important, as is not starving the pick up...you should be fine.
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Old 03-24-2009, 12:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS View Post
Okay, yes or no question- Should I screw around with drilling/machining/otherwise altering my EJ25 crank to hit 8200 RPM safely?
If so, what specifically should I have done?
I apologize if that's made clear in another thread, but my searches here turn up either terrible signal-to-noise threads, or impossible tech geek-to-layman ratios.
I did do some searches, and to find many of the threads you would have to know a few keywords that might not be obvious. I have some suggestions I am going to pass by a few mods as to how we might make it eaiser to find the information you are looking for. As it is now, often the only way to learn is to spend some significant time ( 3 - 6 months ) watching and reading threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post

It is nothing more than a theory for now...it could be suspect however looking at the fact that the crank design being mentioned is used in the Spec C cars from the factory and are known to spend 9k rpm on a factory built bottom end.
So I'd say the cross drilling myth is busted as to cross-drilling being the cause of our failed rod bearings. Oil timing however may not...yes, I said timing.
Agreed, as the Spec C bottom end revs well to at least 8250 if not more. I ran a Spec C block with and AVO500 with good results many years ago, eventually having a problem with piston scoring not bearings.

Like many other areas of Subaru performance, cause is often well mixed up with many factors. Many people post up about having a spun bearing without any further disclosure. Did they know their oil pressure? What oil? What tune? Was it knocking? Do they know how to know if it was knocking?
Why did they choose the bearing clearances they did? Do they even know what bearing clearances are?

In the overall view, one would conclude that the EJ257 engines are not easy to rev about 7500 rpm, but that broad statement is a very oversimplified point of view.

You can be sure that if your oil pressure, when hot, drops to 35psi at 8000 rpm you will have a problem.

Indeed the oil timing is an interesting concept. Has someone looked at the oil timing for the newer WRX crank, and is it the same as the older Spec C cranks?

Jeff

Last edited by sponaugle; 03-24-2009 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 03-24-2009, 12:21 PM   #19
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So, provided I maintain proper oil pressure and oil health, I can use a stock 257 to occasionally push the motor past 7500 RPM to 8kish with minimal risk to my bearings? I would limit myself to 7500 on the track, but use the 8000-8200 on occasion just to avoid a 2-3-2 shift when I'm autocrossing, so probably not more than 2-3 seconds at a time.
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Old 03-24-2009, 01:21 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
Indeed the oil timing is an interesting concept. Has someone looked at the oil timing for the newer WRX crank, and is it the same as the older Spec C cranks?
I've never had both in my hand but comparing to other pics online (yes I've posted my early and new model EJ205/7 cranks to one another)...the spec C and newer crank seem to have identical timing.
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Old 03-24-2009, 02:49 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS View Post
So, provided I maintain proper oil pressure and oil health, I can use a stock 257 to occasionally push the motor past 7500 RPM to 8kish with minimal risk to my bearings? I would limit myself to 7500 on the track, but use the 8000-8200 on occasion just to avoid a 2-3-2 shift when I'm autocrossing, so probably not more than 2-3 seconds at a time.
If it was me, I'd use a 2.0L crank (new one from Subaru) and put in +2mm rods using high compression pistons STi wrist pin spec, and run that. This'll put the motor to a 2.3L instead of 2.5L, but your rod/stroke ratio would be much better and it's still a 2.5L bore. Being built it's gonna run better than a 2.2L NA.

Come to think of it, I might as well go +2mm rods with CP pistons made moving the wrist pin up 2mm. Run this with the new WRX crank and have things balanced.

But to answer the OP's original question... it'd be ideal to get the new WRX crank, shim the oil pump, and run those bearing looser from ACL. Balance the rotating assembly and you'll be good to go, especially on that 2.0L.
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Old 03-24-2009, 08:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuJi K View Post
If it was me, I'd use a 2.0L crank (new one from Subaru) and put in +2mm rods using high compression pistons STi wrist pin spec, and run that. This'll put the motor to a 2.3L instead of 2.5L, but your rod/stroke ratio would be much better and it's still a 2.5L bore. Being built it's gonna run better than a 2.2L NA.

Come to think of it, I might as well go +2mm rods with CP pistons made moving the wrist pin up 2mm. Run this with the new WRX crank and have things balanced.
Yeah, the R/S ratio would be better, but honestly I don't think the setup I plan to use is a likely failure point just from the forces of spinning it. If it stays oiled and doesn't detonate, it should be fine unless the stock RS rods give out. If they do, I'll upgrade those then.
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Old 03-24-2009, 09:58 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by BAN SUVS View Post
Yeah, the R/S ratio would be better, but honestly I don't think the setup I plan to use is a likely failure point just from the forces of spinning it. If it stays oiled and doesn't detonate, it should be fine unless the stock RS rods give out. If they do, I'll upgrade those then.
just know that the overwhelming majority of rod failures happen as the rod is pulled away from TDC on the exhaust stroke

so that RPM/spinning comment is actually the leading failure of rods...though you won't be pushing it on factory forged rods.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 03-24-2009 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 03-24-2009, 10:04 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN SUVS View Post
So, provided I maintain proper oil pressure and oil health, I can use a stock 257 to occasionally push the motor past 7500 RPM to 8kish with minimal risk to my bearings? I would limit myself to 7500 on the track, but use the 8000-8200 on occasion just to avoid a 2-3-2 shift when I'm autocrossing, so probably not more than 2-3 seconds at a time.

I'm not sure if you are concluding this on what I said, but I would not agree with your assertion. ( And I hope others reading this thread think the same way).

My assertion is simply that if do not maintain oil pressure you will have a significant problem. If you were to look at all of the failures related to bearing surfaces in the EJ257 motor at high RPM, I suspect some portion will be related to oil pressure. There have been failures in cases with good oil pressure as well.

In the overall view, I have not seen a well proven method to rev the EJ257 motors to 8k rpm. There have been some people who were successful ( I was in one case ). However a few people have followed the same setup and not been as successful. This implies some other important variables.

Jeff
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Old 03-24-2009, 10:14 PM   #25
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This car revs to 10k and has plenty of oil pressure
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/P...RPM_641599.htm
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