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Old 03-18-2011, 11:14 AM   #2501
sumfoo1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpowr View Post
i have heard guys running the shorter gap, and thought it was about blowing the spark out. then my local napa brother explained that i would want the spark to be long so that it would ignite and not blow out.

gap for my build on 93 pump? should i switch out the 2$ ngk copper for a 10$ irridium?
I've also had an advanced auto parts guy ask why i only needed 1 valve cover for my 4.0 jeep.... seriously auto parts store employees aren't the cream of the crop. They do what the computer tells them to.
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:53 AM   #2502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OppositeLock

Dom, can you elaborate as to why this might be a problem? TIA
I wasn't aware that a once utec'd car
Could store values but it happened to both me and my neighbor with our AP's. After un-marrying, resetting and loading different maps there were AP values stuck in our ecus. They were somehow stuck in the stock map that the AP flashed back to stock. Then were stuck in the Rom that we pulled with ecuflash. Changes in wgdc and injector sizing had no effect on what our cars ran. We had to start with a fresh stock Rom to get rid of the stuck AP code.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:57 PM   #2503
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Originally Posted by OppositeLock View Post
Dom, can you elaborate as to why this might be a problem? TIA

many cars with UTECs have issues with coil packs blowing out. I believe it has to do with the dwell that is programmed in the utec. The values don't "stay" on anything with a UTEC. It's just that the coil packs on previously UTEC equipped cars go out a lot. I've seen it over and over.
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:23 PM   #2504
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^^^Yeah Doms right some utecs had too high of dwell settings and even had problems after the utec was removed because the coils had already been damaged from overheating and it shortens their life drastically.
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Old 03-18-2011, 04:34 PM   #2505
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So misfires vs blowout;

What does yours sound like/act like when you have an "event"?
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:19 PM   #2506
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I guess the only real difference would be the cause.

Misfire is usually due to either a lean condition or a deteriorated coil pack or plug.

Blowout is due to the density of non-conducting atoms between the electrodes of the spark plug. Neither gasoline nor air conduct electricity and packing too much in between the electrodes at higher than atmospheric pressures is the same as widening the gap. If you double the pressure, you double the relative spark plug gap.
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:51 PM   #2507
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Wow^^^Wrapping my head around that. I sense the answer to my spark plug gap question has been revealed.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:55 PM   #2508
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do you need me to explain it more or do you got it?
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:32 PM   #2509
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double the pressure?
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:40 PM   #2510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpowr
double the pressure?
Yeah I was just establishing a relationship. Just trying to show that as you raise boost you increase your effective gap. That's why turbo cars run smaller gaps. NA cars run 40 thou and up.
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Old 03-19-2011, 01:41 PM   #2511
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Originally Posted by xsnapshot View Post
I'm confused as to what you think it could be other than spark blowout?? The mix is not lighting leading to sudden loss of power (brief quick pulses). And yes, if you gap it tighter, and the problem goes away, do that not indicate you have finally closed the gap tight enough to jump the spark and light the mix, thus no blowout? If you have an idea for what it could be please tell me.

I'm running between 11.8-12.0 WOT gas equiv AFR (depending on the exact % of ethanol in the tank at the time of reading). I started my 16G at 12* at peak torque up to 22 at redline, working my way up to 14* at peak torque up to about 25 at redline. It feels great. I don't know what else to tell you about the tune. I'm sure its not at optimal power, but I really don't need anymore power, and wouldn't feel comfortable with sending more through my old EJ205 or the 4EAT.

I've always ran NGK stock heat range iridiums, and they've always performed great. I doubt its the plugs fault. I've cleaned the factory grounds, and added a few more just for ****s and giggles.

I attribute it to weak coil packs. Heck maybe I should log voltage at WOT and make sure my alternator isn't doing something funky.

When i get the boost-a-spark I will be taking my plugs out to re-gap them and will inspect my coil packs. I'll post up the results.
Curious, have you logged it while it's breaking up? I'd be curious to see what "blow out" looks like on a dyno plot.
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Old 03-19-2011, 02:39 PM   #2512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVT_WRX

Curious, have you logged it while it's breaking up? I'd be curious to see what "blow out" looks like on a dyno plot.
Its just a dip in power on a plot. The size of the dip depends on the amount of blowout.
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Old 03-19-2011, 03:02 PM   #2513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
Its just a dip in power on a plot. The size of the dip depends on the amount of blowout.
Hmmm...interesting. I might be experiencing blowout. I currently have 1 step colder iridiums and have a dip in my power plot around 5000-5600 rpm. No knock and afr's rise at the point of the dip. Hmmmm....
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:28 AM   #2514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVT_WRX

Hmmm...interesting. I might be experiencing blowout. I currently have 1 step colder iridiums and have a dip in my power plot around 5000-5600 rpm. No knock and afr's rise at the point of the dip. Hmmmm....
Oh you would know. It's not a graceful slight lack of power thing. It's a noticeable event that you can hear. Very distinct sudden split second long losses of power.
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:30 AM   #2515
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Originally Posted by SVT_WRX

Curious, have you logged it while it's breaking up? I'd be curious to see what "blow out" looks like on a dyno plot.
I have logged it before. My wideband can't be logged, so I couldn't see the lean spots, and actually if blowout is not that bad, you can't even see it on the log.
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:43 AM   #2516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power
I guess the only real difference would be the cause.

Misfire is usually due to either a lean condition or a deteriorated coil pack or plug.

Blowout is due to the density of non-conducting atoms between the electrodes of the spark plug. Neither gasoline nor air conduct electricity and packing too much in between the electrodes at higher than atmospheric pressures is the same as widening the gap. If you double the pressure, you double the relative spark plug gap.
So you've had good luck getting the stock coils to fire without a booster on properly gapped plugs at 500+whp on alcohol? what size of gaps do you generally run at higher power levels?

Today I filled up on true E85 yesterday and this morning it was pretty tough going getting it started at this smaller gap level and temps around 30*F. There is a noticeable difference in startability IMO going from a gap of .026 to .023. It should be interesting to see the difference going back to .030.

Sorry for 3 replies instead of one....I can't figure out how to make this Android app multiquote.
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Old 03-20-2011, 12:51 AM   #2517
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^^ r u tuning the cranking tables?

have you tried swapping coil packs with someone?
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:43 AM   #2518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnapshot View Post
Oh you would know. It's not a graceful slight lack of power thing. It's a noticeable event that you can hear. Very distinct sudden split second long losses of power.
Well, I'm definitely not experiencing that.
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:59 AM   #2519
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I really think it's gotta be an underlying problem....I've tuned many many cars with bigger turbos on e85 on both the 2L and 2.5L on all different plugs n gaps and not one person has had blowout......

I mean if ur getting it on a 38lbm turbo at 20psi then these 60+ lbm turbos at 25-30 psi should be blowing out like crazy
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:19 AM   #2520
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Yeah, I think so too. The way he makes it sound is that when blowout happens, it's pretty obvious.

I mean, I would think that if compression is good, no boost leaks, AFR's are good, injectors are working correctly and it's not knocking and it's still behaving this way, then I would think it could be blowout.

If I were experiencing this issue, I would swap coil packs first and go from there. I also know that ignition can break up if you run TOO much dwell....
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:23 AM   #2521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
^^ r u tuning the cranking tables?

have you tried swapping coil packs with someone?
Like Ron suggests, try swapping in a new coil pack ($100) into the affected cylinder (if you're getting a CEL that tells you which cyclinder).

This same thing was happening to me, and it was just a coil pack.
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:54 AM   #2522
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have u considered that its something with your internal wg + ext wg + ebcs + hallman?

would you mind sending me your rom...and a clean log without blowout....and a log with blowout....

r-j-w@rocketmail.com
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Old 03-20-2011, 07:22 AM   #2523
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i just vision all the tables in the different roms just scrolling through Ron's head like a slot machine. Ron you are a machine lol
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Old 03-20-2011, 09:26 AM   #2524
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i took a pic of ron in his office...with his poodle.



he plugs his finger into your obd2 and writes rom with his brain.
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Old 03-20-2011, 11:34 AM   #2525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
^^ r u tuning the cranking tables?

have you tried swapping coil packs with someone?
Yes i have modified the cranking tables and it definitely helped. I'm not by any means knowledgeable about those tables though, and they could probably use some work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfGuruJeff View Post
Like Ron suggests, try swapping in a new coil pack ($100) into the affected cylinder (if you're getting a CEL that tells you which cyclinder).

This same thing was happening to me, and it was just a coil pack.
It probably is a coil pack(s). I'm not getting a CEL though.

After listening to all you guys I realize I probably should have bought new coils instead of this boost-a-spark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
have u considered that its something with your internal wg + ext wg + ebcs + hallman?

would you mind sending me your rom...and a clean log without blowout....and a log with blowout....

r-j-w@rocketmail.com
I haven't really considered that. I mean boost is constant, and no giant leaks or anything (I can't guarantee a small leak hasn't developed, but last time I pressure tested it to 20 psi, it was fine). I'm not really sure how it could be the boost control system's fault.

The only log I have of blowout is on the stock turbo over a year ago (if I can even find it). I'll try and get a clean log today some time at 17 psi on the EWG, and then I will send my stuff to you.

I also have issues logging this car. Anytime the knock sensor gets even the faintest of tickles, it cuts my logging. Initially it made it difficult to tune, as I couldn't get a full log when I was fixing my tip-in related knock. I need to get to radio shack and pick up some of those ferrite chokes.

Here is a thread where another guy is describing a problem similar to mine
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...1545854&page=2

Either the boost-a-spark will help, or, maybe it will just burn up the bad coil and I'll know which one to replace!
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