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Old 03-20-2012, 04:24 PM   #5551
MainFrame
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Quick question.. since I'm on my third set of DW1300s (yeah, I know ) I'm in the market for new injectors before my final e85 tune. The car is a built hybrid bugeye, STi cams, EWG, all bolt ons, and I'm probably putting an ATP GTX3076r on it until I have the time and money to go rotated. I have a Walbro 400 in tank and I'm having braided lines with AN fittings installed in the engine bay to stop leaks.


To me it seems that my best bet will be to get some ID1000s, an Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator, and bump up the static fuel pressure a little bit. I already have a gauge waiting to be installed with my new lines.



Will it even be necessary to raise the fuel pressure? I'm thinking I will need a little more than 1000cc to max that turbo. Would it be better to just get some Five-O 1250s? FICs? Or does the ID1000s and FPR sound like a good plan?
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Old 03-20-2012, 04:50 PM   #5552
juanmedina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
that car has the AMR 80lbm stock location turbo.
I can't even imagine the fitment of that turbo . The spools looks really good for its size, I wonder if it is a real 80lb/min turbo. Can we see some logs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MainFrame View Post
Quick question.. since I'm on my third set of DW1300s (yeah, I know ) I'm in the market for new injectors before my final e85 tune. The car is a built hybrid bugeye, STi cams, EWG, all bolt ons, and I'm probably putting an ATP GTX3076r on it until I have the time and money to go rotated. I have a Walbro 400 in tank and I'm having braided lines with AN fittings installed in the engine bay to stop leaks.


To me it seems that my best bet will be to get some ID1000s, an Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator, and bump up the static fuel pressure a little bit. I already have a gauge waiting to be installed with my new lines.



Will it even be necessary to raise the fuel pressure? I'm thinking I will need a little more than 1000cc to max that turbo. Would it be better to just get some Five-O 1250s? FICs? Or does the ID1000s and FPR sound like a good plan?
Buy my Five0 1200cc, you can make 500whp dynojet without maxing them out with that pump.

Can the Walbro 400lph be modded like the old 255lph?
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:46 PM   #5553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
2X 255LPH = 510LPH


yeah, but at 30psi of boost, the walbro 255's will only be flowing about 170lphx2 which would be 340lph, and that is assuming ZERO losses in flow in the fuel rails. usually the flow isn't EXACTLY doubled just by hooking up double the pump.
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:09 PM   #5554
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I can't even imagine the fitment of that turbo . The spools looks really good for its size, I wonder if it is a real 80lb/min turbo. Can we see some logs?


Stock fitment is a joke. You have to grind down on the block and transmission to get it to fit. Probably not really 80 but who knows. I'm sure mikey may post them up when he gets done running from our tornados.

On another note . Somehow my car will fire right up after it had been setting overnight while on the e98. I thought it would be a pain to start but its just like stock . Thanks alot Mikey
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:14 PM   #5555
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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
yeah, but at 30psi of boost, the walbro 255's will only be flowing about 170lphx2 which would be 340lph, and that is assuming ZERO losses in flow in the fuel rails. usually the flow isn't EXACTLY doubled just by hooking up double the pump.
#1 Dual modded walbros will outflow the 400 and the fuel pumps need a dedicated power supply to run at their full potential.I have been 140 at 30psi on e85 w/id2200's and saw 68%idc.Its all in how the fuel system is set up.
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:27 PM   #5556
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I hardwired one of my walbro 255's, and for the other one I ran new power/ground to the FP controller. 8ga wires, and two 40A relays that are triggered off the OEM fp relay. While dialing in boost/afr on e85 I accidentially hit 27-28psi and high 10.x AFR above 7k rpms. Plenty of fuel, and no problems with overrunning the FPR.
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Old 03-20-2012, 09:22 PM   #5557
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with a 35r and dual walbros both with dedicated wiring, you shouldn't have fuel problems even if you targeted 10:1...thats plenty of fuel for a 35r unless you are running quite a bit higher than stock fuel pressure or quite a bit more boost than 30psi (or an in the middle combo of both)...

also, i agree with john1 completely that it depends on the fuel system setup, and i also agree with him that the dual walbros will outflow the walbro 400...just not by much. there are flow tests out there of the dual modded walbros running 13.5V (hardwired), and they only flowed 343lph at 75psi. the walbro 400 at 13.5V and 75psi is flowing about 300lph.

btw, at 68% IDC on ID2200's, you would be flowing about 360lph. so looking at the flow data of the dual modded walbros with dedicated wiring and comparing it to your injector flow at that duty cycle, i would say that your fuel pumps are close to being maxed, which is fine if you stay at the power level you are currently at...BUT...if you increased power more, once that happens, the IDC's are going to start rising disproportionally to compensate for the lower output of the fuel pumps. you also should start seeing fuel pressure drop off towards redline if you are able to monitor/log it on a gauge.


...none of this really matters though because the OP that started this whole convo is running dual 340's which is close to 500lph at 75psi

Last edited by amalgrover; 03-20-2012 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 03-20-2012, 09:57 PM   #5558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wichitalegacy View Post
Stock fitment is a joke. You have to grind down on the block and transmission to get it to fit. Probably not really 80 but who knows. I'm sure mikey may post them up when he gets done running from our tornados.

On another note . Somehow my car will fire right up after it had been setting overnight while on the e98. I thought it would be a pain to start but its just like stock . Thanks alot Mikey
I know man tell me about, I had to do the same thing with my tiny FP black... but it was worth it

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
with a 35r and dual walbros both with dedicated wiring, you shouldn't have fuel problems even if you targeted 10:1...thats plenty of fuel for a 35r unless you are running quite a bit higher than stock fuel pressure or quite a bit more boost than 30psi (or an in the middle combo of both)...

also, i agree with john1 completely that it depends on the fuel system setup, and i also agree with him that the dual walbros will outflow the walbro 400...just not by much. there are flow tests out there of the dual modded walbros running 13.5V (hardwired), and they only flowed 343lph at 75psi. the walbro 400 at 13.5V and 75psi is flowing about 300lph.

btw, at 68% IDC on ID2200's, you would be flowing about 360lph. so looking at the flow data of the dual modded walbros with dedicated wiring and comparing it to your injector flow at that duty cycle, i would say that your fuel pumps are close to being maxed, which is fine if you stay at the power level you are currently at...BUT...if you increased power more, once that happens, the IDC's are going to start rising disproportionally to compensate for the lower output of the fuel pumps. you also should start seeing fuel pressure drop off towards redline if you are able to monitor/log it on a gauge.


...none of this really matters though because the OP that started this whole convo is running dual 340's which is close to 500lph at 75psi
Exactly, dual 340s
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:37 PM   #5559
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I'm sending my dw1300s out to be tested before install...hit or miss on quality control, huh?
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:12 PM   #5560
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I have to figure out why i'm not getting the fuel on the top end of my e98 tune. Seems that the fuel pressure kind of hangs out where it wants to. I can adjust it but it will change later on. On pump gas it was hanging out around 38psi and with the e98 it likes to hang out at 50psi. Why whould it do that? Is it possible one of my pumps have went bad?
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:13 PM   #5561
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I'm sending my dw1300s out to be tested before install...hit or miss on quality control, huh?

Deatschwerks tested my second set of 1300s before they sent them to me and they passed even though they were bad. Unfortunately the tests they run don't exactly simulate real world conditions.
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:17 PM   #5562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wichitalegacy View Post
I have to figure out why i'm not getting the fuel on the top end of my e98 tune. Seems that the fuel pressure kind of hangs out where it wants to. I can adjust it but it will change later on. On pump gas it was hanging out around 38psi and with the e98 it likes to hang out at 50psi. Why whould it do that? Is it possible one of my pumps have went bad?
i have people tell me that all the time. it almost seems like its one of those things that you just dont realize on the stock setup....cause no one puts a FP gauge on a stock FPR car. But tuning people with FPR's can become a huge hassle. They set it at 43.5, then its 38 the next day, then 48 the day after. maybe the fprs just arent setup correctly, or they arent working properly
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:28 PM   #5563
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My aeromotive fpr had a broken spring...
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:46 AM   #5564
maxpowr
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Physically broken spring? I'm gonna send my injectors to injector clinic locally, for an unbiased opinion.

DW still hasn't even gotta back to me about wether or not air pressure should be able to pass through them or not when they are not powered.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:55 AM   #5565
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Yeah it broke right in half. The car kept leaning out under boost.
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Old 03-21-2012, 01:05 AM   #5566
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kind of off topic...

if you go to http://www.chooseethanol.com/ right at the top of the home page it has an app to navigate to E85 stations for the garmin, tomtom, iphone, ipad, ipod touch, android, or blackberry. i played around with it a little bit, and it seems to work pretty well, and it supposedly gets updated every quarter so...should be more accurate than alot of other stuff

...just thought this would be something good for everyone to have if they already hadn't seen it.
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Old 03-21-2012, 03:53 PM   #5567
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I know there is typically a large spike in torque from E85 in boost, but what about before boost onset, or at low load situations? Is it equal to regular fuel, or is there a certain percentage gain there as well?

Last edited by langsbr; 03-21-2012 at 03:54 PM. Reason: misspelling
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Old 03-21-2012, 04:23 PM   #5568
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i have people tell me that all the time. it almost seems like its one of those things that you just dont realize on the stock setup....cause no one puts a FP gauge on a stock FPR car. But tuning people with FPR's can become a huge hassle. They set it at 43.5, then its 38 the next day, then 48 the day after. maybe the fprs just arent setup correctly, or they arent working properly
I think I may have figured out the problem of leaning out on the top end on e98. Is it possible that the voltage is dropping at the pumps? They are both drawing power off of a single 40A relay. I have 0 gauge running to the back to a distrabution block and an 8gauge running to the relay and then the wires off the relay run directly to the pumps.

Would 2 40a relays possibly solve this issue?
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Old 03-21-2012, 04:28 PM   #5569
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Originally Posted by langsbr View Post
I know there is typically a large spike in torque from E85 in boost, but what about before boost onset, or at low load situations? Is it equal to regular fuel, or is there a certain percentage gain there as well?
I compared some some of my gas logs to my E85 logs today. I haven't adjusted timing, boost or fueling yet. My E85 map only has tuning for bigger injectors and E85. With all conditions the same (gear, IAT, boost, etc) I hit higher loads. For example in one comparison, 4th gear, 3800 rpm 19.5 psi I had a load of 3.14 on gas and 3.5 with E85. Loads are slightly higher still even under low boost and low loads but its more noticeable up top.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:12 PM   #5570
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Originally Posted by wichitalegacy View Post
I think I may have figured out the problem of leaning out on the top end on e98. Is it possible that the voltage is dropping at the pumps? They are both drawing power off of a single 40A relay. I have 0 gauge running to the back to a distrabution block and an 8gauge running to the relay and then the wires off the relay run directly to the pumps.

Would 2 40a relays possibly solve this issue?
its possible that you are seeing a drop in voltage, but i wouldn't really imagine that you are. adding in a second relay probably wouldn't do any good since a relay is just to connect pin A to pin B, and your wiring to and from the relay are a good size so...even if you got a drop through the relay, it should be pretty small. it wouldn't hurt anything to try adding a second one, but i honestly doubt it would do anything.

its more likely that you are seeing a restriction in the fuel system itself. i'm curious to see if it actually is the internal baffles of the fuel tank because with the tank full of fuel, the baffles, pump, etc. are pretty much completely submerged in fuel. if the tank baffles were causing the problem, i would think that the fuel level would change the lean condition. if the tank is all the way full and it still doesn't at least reduce the lean condition, i would lean more towards something else causing the problems. Mikey knows ALOT more than me though so...like i said, i am really anxious to see if that is actually the cause.

out of curiousity, what fuel lines and injectors are you running?
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:16 AM   #5571
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6an fuel lines and id2200s
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:00 AM   #5572
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hmmm...it could be that you are losing current because of the drop from 0ga to 8ga to 14ga (i am assuming the wires from the relay to the pump are either 12 or 14ga)...those are pretty big jumps and might be causing some current loss. maybe try rewiring with wire sizes that are more similar (i.e.- 8ga from battery to the distro box, 10ga or 12ga to the relay, and then 10 or 12 ga to the pump). something else you could do is you could always just check the volts at the pump using a multimeter and a buddy in the car watching it while you run the car to redline. that would tell you if you are losing volts...won't tell you if you are losing amps without an ammeter, but at least you will be able to see volts.
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:03 AM   #5573
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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
hmmm...it could be that you are losing current because of the drop from 0ga to 8ga to 14ga (i am assuming the wires from the relay to the pump are either 12 or 14ga)...those are pretty big jumps and might be causing some current loss. maybe try rewiring with wire sizes that are more similar (i.e.- 8ga from battery to the distro box, 10ga or 12ga to the relay, and then 10 or 12 ga to the pump). something else you could do is you could always just check the volts at the pump using a multimeter and a buddy in the car watching it while you run the car to redline. that would tell you if you are losing volts...won't tell you if you are losing amps without an ammeter, but at least you will be able to see volts.
The voltage at the pump (and the resistance from that point where the voltage is measured through the pump to the ground) is what determines the current that will be drawn. The equation to be used is V = I*R, so for instance if you measure 12v at the pump, and the resistance from there, through the pump, and to the ground is .2 ohms, then it would essentially draw 12/.2 = 60 Amps ( it is a bit more complicated than this because of the way electric motors work, but the point i'm going to make doesn't depend on this)....so now the wire WILL carry 60 AMPS, the question is can the wire handle this current, this is where the gauge becomes important, a smaller gauge can carry more current WITHOUT getting really hot or even instantly melting the insulation and wire (). So long story short if your voltage and resistance says you are about to drawn 60 amps, you better hope your circuit can SAFELY handle that current.

Now, why do we use smaller gauge wire? Two reasons...

1) as the diameter of the wire INCREASES (as gauge number decreases, wire diameter increases) the resistance decreases. This is good for us because we want to get the MAXIMUM voltage from the battery back to the pump, so if we have a larger diameter wire going from the battery to the pump, the VOLTAGE DECREASE from the battery to the pump is less with a smaller gauge wire vs. a larger gauge wire. So if our voltage at the battery with the car running is about 14.5v, if we use a 14 gauge wire from the battery to the pump, the voltage to the pump may only be 13v (just guessing/throwing out numbers to make my point)...now if we use an 8 gauge wire from the battery to the pump, we may be getting 14v at the pump... Therefore by using a smaller gauge wire, we have increased the voltage at the pump, which will allow it to flow more.

2)Smaller gauge wire can safely handle larger currents.

Hope this clears some things up.

DK

(already have my M.S. almost have my Ph.D in physics)
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:39 AM   #5574
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...nevermind...decided its not worth posting...

Last edited by amalgrover; 03-22-2012 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:54 AM   #5575
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6an fuel lines and id2200s
and does the lean condition change at all (get better or worse) with more or less fuel in the tank?
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