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Old 09-18-2012, 12:54 PM   #6426
baseballdbk1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover

yes, look at the subaru injector options. there is a tab that says low-z or high-z. click on the low-z tab, and you will see the in-between sizes . just because they aren't plug&play doesn't mean they aren't an option. also, evo injectors fit as well with a 5/8" spacer on the fuel rail. so there are even more options there.
Just wondering why would you ever want to run the low z injectors when the high z 2150 injectors would be a better option?

And why bother trying to make something else fit when there is already a good solution for the problem?
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:44 PM   #6427
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As he already said before, just because the injectors worked well for you with your parts combo, gas and tune does not mean it will be exactly the same for everyone else.

Especially for folks on the stock ecu
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:13 PM   #6428
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Originally Posted by Phatron
As he already said before, just because the injectors worked well for you with your parts combo, gas and tune does not mean it will be exactly the same for everyone else.

Especially for folks on the stock ecu
I am on stock ecu... stock lines, stock fpr, perrin fuel rails and DW300 in-tank pump
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:15 PM   #6429
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the firt part of the statement still applies
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:24 PM   #6430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballdbk1

I am on stock ecu... stock lines, stock fpr, perrin fuel rails and DW300 in-tank pump
Are you 32 bit or 16
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:24 PM   #6431
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Originally Posted by baseballdbk1 View Post
Just wondering why would you ever want to run the low z injectors when the high z 2150 injectors would be a better option?

And why bother trying to make something else fit when there is already a good solution for the problem?
--FIC 1650cc low-z injectors = $450
--Resistor Pack from any mitsubishi or Honda = $50 at a pick and pull of your choice or ebay

--Total = $500

vs.

--FIC 2150cc high-z injectors = $780

...$300 is worth alot to some people, and that is just the price spread for the 1650's vs. 2150's. say someone was only going to go with a 35R, then you are talking almost a $400 price spread for the supporting injectors vs. the 2150's. that is a pretty significant amount of money to a good portion of the people on here.



also, the difference between high-z and low-z with a resistor pack is pretty much none in terms of performance or tuning. the resistor pack essentially makes the low-z injectors perform as if they were high-z. that means that they aren't really a "better" option necessarily, just a more plug&play one. to some people, spending 30mins splicing 4 wires doesn't exactly make something a "worse" option.



...and...i hardly consider spending $5 on 4 nylon spacers and 4 longer bolts from lowes "trying to make something fit". its not like that really is expensive or time consuming. if you are already changing out the injectors, the rails are already unbolted from the TGV's anyways, which means that installing the taller injectors with the spacers and longer bolts isn't going to be anymore effort really than it would have been to install the stock ones.


listen, don't get me wrong, the 2150's are very nice injectors. they may work perfectly for you and your setup, but you can't really come in here and try and tell someone they should run the injectors you run just because they work for you. your experience with them only goes as far as your personal vehicle, which lets be honest, you didn't really do the wrenching or tuning on. so you really can't say how easy or hard they would be to tune or make work on someone else's setup because you have never really tuned them or installed them on your setup, let alone anyone else's.

i'm not saying don't give your opinion or your input about injectors. i am just saying that if you are going to give input or suggestions, please try and keep in mind that what works on one setup doesn't always work on every setup.
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:09 PM   #6432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecpgh

Are you 32 bit or 16
32 bit
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Old 09-18-2012, 04:38 PM   #6433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover

--FIC 1650cc low-z injectors = $450
--Resistor Pack from any mitsubishi or Honda = $50 at a pick and pull of your choice or ebay

--Total = $500

vs.

--FIC 2150cc high-z injectors = $780

...$300 is worth alot to some people, and that is just the price spread for the 1650's vs. 2150's. say someone was only going to go with a 35R, then you are talking almost a $400 price spread for the supporting injectors vs. the 2150's. that is a pretty significant amount of money to a good portion of the people on here.

also, the difference between high-z and low-z with a resistor pack is pretty much none in terms of performance or tuning. the resistor pack essentially makes the low-z injectors perform as if they were high-z. that means that they aren't really a "better" option necessarily, just a more plug&play one. to some people, spending 30mins splicing 4 wires doesn't exactly make something a "worse" option.

...and...i hardly consider spending $5 on 4 nylon spacers and 4 longer bolts from lowes "trying to make something fit". its not like that really is expensive or time consuming. if you are already changing out the injectors, the rails are already unbolted from the TGV's anyways, which means that installing the taller injectors with the spacers and longer bolts isn't going to be anymore effort really than it would have been to install the stock ones.

listen, don't get me wrong, the 2150's are very nice injectors. they may work perfectly for you and your setup, but you can't really come in here and try and tell someone they should run the injectors you run just because they work for you. your experience with them only goes as far as your personal vehicle, which lets be honest, you didn't really do the wrenching or tuning on. so you really can't say how easy or hard they would be to tune or make work on someone else's setup because you have never really tuned them or installed them on your setup, let alone anyone else's.

i'm not saying don't give your opinion or your input about injectors. i am just saying that if you are going to give input or suggestions, please try and keep in mind that what works on one setup doesn't always work on every setup.
Ok this is my last response to this topic...

Again, i would not start cutting/modifying and adding resistor packs to downgrade to a more "suitable size" injector like you are saying because i dont feel it is needed.
Why make old technology work on something that is already suited for new technology? Nobody attempts to bring the vcr back when bluray works better!

Yes, of course money is a big issue when it comes to modifying but if you want something to run properly with no problems, i unfortunately do not agree with doing something that "should" to save some money when you can spend a little more to purchase a part that is a direct replacement and "will" work.

Alright, if there is a limiting factor because of the ECU and your only option is to go in another direction by making going with a smaller injector then i find that understandable!

But when i have seen dsm, evo, and multiple subarus(16 or 32 bit) running 2000cc injectors, I find it hard to believe that i just happen to be lucky enough to make these injectors work with my setup using a pte 6266 making close to 600whp, especially when i have already ran these injectors with a way less powerful setup that only made 420whp...

I am not trying to "force" anyone to use the same injectors as myself but in "my experience" they have worked perfectly with no problems so i recommend them to people looking for a quality injector, runs perfectly with E85 and 93 octane, great consistency in any weather conditions from 5 degrees outside all the way to 95!

End.
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:56 PM   #6434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baseballdbk1

I am on stock ecu... stock lines, stock fpr, perrin fuel rails and DW300 in-tank pump
So your making almost 600whp on stock fuel lines and a dw300 pump on E85? Wtf
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:12 PM   #6435
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Originally Posted by mecpgh View Post
So your making almost 600whp on stock fuel lines and a dw300 pump on E85? Wtf

Yea, that is a little odd. I've seen 044s on a surge tank max their flow capabilities at 550whp.
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:17 PM   #6436
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Originally Posted by mecpgh View Post
So your making almost 600whp on stock fuel lines and a dw300 pump on E85? Wtf
Apparently his injectors are big enough compensate for what must be a drop in fuel pressure on that setup. A dw300 can't flow enough E85 at that power level from what I've seen.

baseballdbk1 - do you know what your duty cycle is like at your power level? I'd be curious to know and see what your MAF scaling looks like.

I've seen some wild looking MAF scaling to compensate for pressure drop and big injectors.

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Old 09-19-2012, 12:18 AM   #6437
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I had id2000's in my 2.2L Wrx 16bit and they wouldn't idle leaner than 12.0 on pump gas with the Inj scaled at 4000 and the latency at 0.2. So they don't work perfectly on every car like you are saying.
Even some folks on 2.5's can't get them leaner than 13.0-13.5 on pump gas.
If one injector worked perfectly on everyone's car then there wouldn't be a discussion on injectors or which ones to run. It would just be a standard, which it's not.
And you're giving people crap about running the "correct" parts when your fuel setup isn't setup "properly" either. As someone already mentioned your injectors are compensating for your lack of fuel pump.
There are plenty of different ways to setup the fuel system. Some people run smaller injectors and bigger pumps and increased fp. Others run big injectors and small pumps.
Fwiw amal's fic injectors were the best set of injectors I've ever dealt with in that flow range. His fueling scatter (actually lack of scatter) was excellent.
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:01 AM   #6438
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Originally Posted by mecpgh View Post
So your making almost 600whp on stock fuel lines and a dw300 pump on E85? Wtf
haha no, i made 521 with that setup!

new lines and in-line pump are coming very soon!
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:11 AM   #6439
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I had id2000's in my 2.2L Wrx 16bit and they wouldn't idle leaner than 12.0 on pump gas with the Inj scaled at 4000 and the latency at 0.2. So they don't work perfectly on every car like you are saying.
Even some folks on 2.5's can't get them leaner than 13.0-13.5 on pump gas.
If one injector worked perfectly on everyone's car then there wouldn't be a discussion on injectors or which ones to run. It would just be a standard, which it's not.
And you're giving people crap about running the "correct" parts when your fuel setup isn't setup "properly" either. As someone already mentioned your injectors are compensating for your lack of fuel pump.
There are plenty of different ways to setup the fuel system. Some people run smaller injectors and bigger pumps and increased fp. Others run big injectors and small pumps.
Fwiw amal's fic injectors were the best set of injectors I've ever dealt with in that flow range. His fueling scatter (actually lack of scatter) was excellent.
This is what I hate about forums bcz if you do not post every single, fine detail apparently it is called bull**** pretty much

I am not an idiot so please do not talk to me like I am one...

I am perfectly aware that the current setup I use is not optimal and maxxed out at 521 which is why I am upgrading with larger lines(feed and return), surgetank, fuelab fpr and in-line pump to run the boost levels needed to make close to 600whp!

Again, I am not denying that sometimes the same setup a person runs will not work good someone else! This all started out because I recommended the 2150 injectors to someone who was having problems with their current injectors, that is all!

BTW I am not giving people "crap" about running the proper setup...
It was "my" opinion on the topic because there seem to be better options available, that is all!
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:20 AM   #6440
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Originally Posted by WRXt4cy View Post
Apparently his injectors are big enough compensate for what must be a drop in fuel pressure on that setup. A dw300 can't flow enough E85 at that power level from what I've seen.

baseballdbk1 - do you know what your duty cycle is like at your power level? I'd be curious to know and see what your MAF scaling looks like.

I've seen some wild looking MAF scaling to compensate for pressure drop and big injectors.
Yes, there is a drop in pressure due to stock fpr/line restrictions and IDC was around 85-90% so boost was lowered from 25 down to 20psi to run safely until the new fuel setup is put into place which will be nothing less than amazing!

and thankfully for speed/density, no need to worry about the MAF scaling anymore!
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:25 AM   #6441
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No one called it bull****.

But your opinions on low imp seemed like they were coming from a place of no experience. They are a cheaper option that work very well....and I would even say better than high imp injectors in the same flow range. But again my experience with them is limited as well, which is why I don't adamantly insist that everyone on here go that route....even though they performed better than high imp injectors.
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:47 AM   #6442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron
No one called it bull****.

But your opinions on low imp seemed like they were coming from a place of no experience. They are a cheaper option that work very well....and I would even say better than high imp injectors in the same flow range. But again my experience with them is limited as well, which is why I don't adamantly insist that everyone on here go that route....even though they performed better than high imp injectors.
The simple reason i would prefer using a high impedance injector which are cars are already setup for is because unlike low impedance, you already know that high impedance require less amperage to open and hold which in theory should help them run at a cooler internal temp that "theoretically" should increase reliability over a given amount of time...
This is the same reason why i chose a larger injector than needed for my setup that will keep IDC percentages lower than 80-85% which keeps the injector from going static also increasing reliability...

Reliability, consistency and performance are my biggest concerns which is why i went in the direction i have!
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:35 AM   #6443
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just wanted to give some fyi for people and kind of a piggy back on your statement about high impedance requiring less amps to open...


high impedance requires less amps to open, but the down side to this is this increases the injector lag time of the solenoid (latency). this reduces minimum injector open time which significantly effects idle in the larger injectors, and effects the accuracy of them injectors at high RPM. this means, as far as consistancy and performance are concerned, running low impedance is going to be the best direction, but, as far as reliability is concerned, high impedance is going to be the best direction.

now, with all that in mind, like i said before, running low impedance injectors on the stock ecu requires a resistor pack. this resistor pack essentially turns the low impedance injectors into high impedance injectors, as far as performance is concerned. the increased response and accuracy of the low impedance is still visible during tuning (like phatron was refering to), but for the most part, the low impedance injectors are now performing just like high impedance injectors if you are running a resistor pack.
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Old 09-19-2012, 08:18 AM   #6444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
just wanted to give some fyi for people and kind of a piggy back on your statement about high impedance requiring less amps to open...

now, with all that in mind, like i said before, running low impedance injectors on the stock ecu requires a resistor pack. this resistor pack essentially turns the low impedance injectors into high impedance injectors, as far as performance is concerned. the increased response and accuracy of the low impedance is still visible during tuning (like phatron was refering to), but for the most part, the low impedance injectors are now performing just like high impedance injectors if you are running a resistor pack.
I agree with most of what you say except the last bit. I have a lot of experience with low imp injectors or (peak and hold inj). Running a resistor pack isn't the same as running a peak and hold driver and you can def tell a difference in the two when tuning. I would never just run a resistor pack but many do. With peak and hold injectors the pintle is totally different than what's on a high imp injector. When using a peak and hold driver the idle quality of large injectors far surpasses that of a high imp inj. There really is no debate about it.

If I was going to run a large inj on a street car I would def suggest dropping the extra coin for a set of peak and hold injectors and a peak and hold driver. I personally have used both AEM and FJO drivers. Both performe well and last. I have been using my fjo driver for two years and I bought it used so I'm not sure how long it has actually been in operation.
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Old 09-19-2012, 08:25 AM   #6445
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Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
Running a resistor pack isn't the same as running a peak and hold driver and you can def tell a difference in the two when tuning.

i must not have explained it clearly enough because this is exactly what i was saying. i was saying that running the resistor pack essentially makes them perform as kind of a low impedance/high impedance combo (though more on the high impedance side) instead of like a true low impedance injector with a peak and hold driver would behave. the only way to get the intended performance out of a low impedance injector is to have a true peak and hold driver.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:02 AM   #6446
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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
i must not have explained it clearly enough because this is exactly what i was saying. i was saying that running the resistor pack essentially makes them perform as kind of a low impedance/high impedance combo (though more on the high impedance side) instead of like a true low impedance injector with a peak and hold driver would behave. the only way to get the intended performance out of a low impedance injector is to have a true peak and hold driver.
Sorry then man. You didn't reference peak and hold driver so I missed what you tried to say.

Btw, are you going to be at nopi this weekend?
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:10 AM   #6447
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i wish...unfortunately i am still in africa...should be home soon, but won't be home for long. thanks to recent overseas events, i will probably head right back out shortly after getting back home.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:17 AM   #6448
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I was running the low-z 1260's from ultimate racing for a couple years with my 30R on E85 (high 20's boost, stock fuel pressure). Idled pretty good, with just a little bit of backfire when daily driving. 100% IDC when we were running the DW301 intank only, which dropped to about 80% when I put in a bosch inline w/a surge tank. I had to put in the aluminum spacers they sent with the injectors and use them along with the phenolic spacers that came with the perrin V2 rail kit to get them to fit. Soldering in the resistor box was easy, had to tinker with them a little to get the latencies right. I switched to 1600's so if anyone wants them hit me up.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:50 AM   #6449
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good info.

im looking forward to e85 with the dw1300s, 6an feed, 6an return, walbro 400 (14v with oem FPC), (flat 4 is building me a bulk-headed oem hanger), 60#s of fuel pressure, built heads, 30r.

10.80 @ 130?
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:56 AM   #6450
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As mentioned low Z with a resistor pack is not the same as a properly setup low z with a real peak/hold driver box. You can make a low z injector drive as good and have a much greater range of sizes but you will need to add a peak/hold box to it for our ECUs and most others to have them work properly. I also want to mention that proper and acceptable are to different things.

By the time you add a peak/hold box in and injectors, you bought yourself FIC/ID 2ks.
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