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Old 12-27-2012, 02:52 PM   #6751
Maxwell Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuel Injector Clinic View Post
Hey amalgrover,

Thanks for sharing your positive experiences using Fuel Injector Clinic injectors! We take pride in the quality of injectors that we offer and of course we aim high when it comes to customer service as well.

We work closely with NASIOC vendors like No Limit Motorsport, Akuma Motorsports, Cobb Tuning, and plenty of others who have had great experiences with our injectors, which is enough reason to have confidence in what we offer.

We do work with lots of race teams, tuners, and shops across many markets and see our injectors being used in some incredibly demanding applications like in Prayoonto Racingís lineup of 8 and 9-second K-Series drag Hondas, Matt Lennenís 8-second drag Supra, FXMDís time attack NSX, the quickest and fastest 4G63 in the world in Tony Niemczykís dragster, and many more.

Maxwell Power,
As far as I know we are the only Fuel Injector Clinic out there, is it possible that the shop you are thinking of in Washington is one of our larger dealers like English Racing? They are very widely known as in the DSM and Evo world with their low 8 second shop car (Jeff Bush 1G - 2012 DSM Shootout Prep - English Racing - YouTube) .
Interestingly enough, they just posted about tuning a HTA35R STi on E85 to make 547 whp using Fuel Injector Clinic 2150s actually, the dyno graph is posted here: https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...47690086_o.jpg
However if thereís another company out there using our name that you know of please let me know!
There is another shop that chose a name similar to ours with the initials FIC but their name is in fact different and we arenít affiliated with them in any way so hopefully thereís no confusion there.

To tell you a bit more about our products, we sell only brand new injectors at Fuel Injector Clinic in order to offer the best reliability possible. We back up great reliability with excellent performance which is a result of extensive in-house testing and data acquisition. Our injectors are dynamically matched into sets to offer the best performance possible all while offering injectors that tune great and are smooth and stable at idle and light throttle as well. As some of those in this thread have already shown, our injectors regularly impress those who tune or use them.

Sorry for the delay in response, we've been quite busy over the holidays. Hope everyone had great holiday and here's to a happy new year as well!
As I stated, I could have been mistaken on the name, but it was FIC. I was certain it was Fuel Injector Clinic or Connection.

I shouldn't have to say this but I am:
it's great that FIC has 8 and 9 second cars out there. However, that doesn't say anything about the injectors other than consistent peak flow. Big deal, just about anybody can do that.
The trick to good injectors is how it performs at low flow rates, low duty cycles. Do all the injectors have the same latency? Do all injectors have the same low pulse flow rate? Are they affected equally by changes in fuel pressure. This site is 99% street cars. Street cars spend 99% of their time at low pulse widths and duty cycles. The ability of an injector to perform consistently in that range is where injectors stand apart from each other. Any numb-skull can take a drill bit to handful of injectors and flow match them at peak flow.

FIC knows this, that I am aware. It's the people that own these cars that don't know this. So many don't understand how important it is to run a quality injector and the difference it makes in drive ability and smoothness. They don't realize that OEM manufacturers run the smallest injector they can get away with on purpose. They don't know that this is done to keep the injector pulses longer and closer to the linear part of the injectors' response curve.

What bugs me is this data isn't anywhere on FIC's website. To make matters worse, the data they provide with their injectors only contains the flow rates. The sheet we got with a customer's injectors didn't even have latency values. Unless they start providing some actual data that shows flow rate of each injector at low duty cycles, some sort of low pulse width data or even a quality latency spec for these injectors, I'll never use them again.
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:32 PM   #6752
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dropbox learning curve...
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:42 PM   #6753
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Originally Posted by jnorth85 View Post
Very well said.
I personally had terrible luck with ID injectors, I had the car in the hands of 3 different experienced tuners who couldn't get the car to idle on E85.

ID was less than helpful and actually had very poor customer service. I was told there was no way the injectors were to blame. They wouldn't offer an exchange, a good partial refund or any assistance what so ever. I ended up selling the setup for less than half what I paid and it kept my car down for an entire season while I messed with tuning.

No matter how good everyone says they are I'll seek every option before I buy from them again.

Which ID's did you use? What did you go with afterwards and what was the result? I suppose I need to hear the whole story. Having played with more ID's than a few of us can count, I've YET to have a bad one/set.

EDIT: Looking at your posts, it looks like you had ID2000's... That's a big injector. I've gotten these to idle nicely before, however, going SD helps make the process much easier. I also recognize your car from ICC. The white STi parked next to the black Evo in the same section as you was running the ID2000's that I was able to make idle correctly. From what I see on your thread, you went from a 2,200cc injector to a 1,400cc injector... THERE'S your problem. Bigger injectors take a bit more work.

Last edited by yamahaSHO; 12-27-2012 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:47 PM   #6754
Maxwell Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
Which ID's did you use? What did you go with afterwards and what was the result? I suppose I need to hear the whole story. Having played with more ID's than a few of us can count, I've YET to have a bad one/set.
that story is pretty crazy and very opposite of any interaction I've had with them.

jnorth, who were you dealing with? ID directly or a reseller? Some resellers are poor at communicating with customers and don't want anything to do with the return process.
Lastly, what were the issues you were having and which injectors did you run?
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:46 PM   #6755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
As I stated, I could have been mistaken on the name, but it was FIC. I was certain it was Fuel Injector Clinic or Connection.

I shouldn't have to say this but I am:
it's great that FIC has 8 and 9 second cars out there. However, that doesn't say anything about the injectors other than consistent peak flow. Big deal, just about anybody can do that.
The trick to good injectors is how it performs at low flow rates, low duty cycles. Do all the injectors have the same latency? Do all injectors have the same low pulse flow rate? Are they affected equally by changes in fuel pressure. This site is 99% street cars. Street cars spend 99% of their time at low pulse widths and duty cycles. The ability of an injector to perform consistently in that range is where injectors stand apart from each other. Any numb-skull can take a drill bit to handful of injectors and flow match them at peak flow.

FIC knows this, that I am aware. It's the people that own these cars that don't know this. So many don't understand how important it is to run a quality injector and the difference it makes in drive ability and smoothness. They don't realize that OEM manufacturers run the smallest injector they can get away with on purpose. They don't know that this is done to keep the injector pulses longer and closer to the linear part of the injectors' response curve.

What bugs me is this data isn't anywhere on FIC's website. To make matters worse, the data they provide with their injectors only contains the flow rates. The sheet we got with a customer's injectors didn't even have latency values. Unless they start providing some actual data that shows flow rate of each injector at low duty cycles, some sort of low pulse width data or even a quality latency spec for these injectors, I'll never use them again.

Every set that I have dealt with has had a sheet with the injector flow rates at different fuel pressures as well as a sheet with the latency data over various voltages and fuel pressures (I believe this was the original request you made). It does not provide any low pulse width data however.

Here is an image of the latency data sheet that came with a set that a customer ordered just a few weeks ago.





...for the record those are my wife's hands not mine ...
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:49 PM   #6756
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Sure they are ^^^^^ lol!
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Old 12-28-2012, 03:54 AM   #6757
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
what people buy isnt based on quality anyway....its mostly based on budget.

ebay $120 injectors ftw!
Very appropriate!!
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:03 AM   #6758
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is juan still updating the list ? or are we gonna make a new one for next year?
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:06 AM   #6759
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Originally Posted by xdrian View Post
is juan still updating the list ? or are we gonna make a new one for next year?
I haven't updated the list in a while; it has become to difficult to update the way it was created.

If someone puts the current list on excel and send me the file. I will update the list...
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:02 PM   #6760
Maxwell Power
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nevermind

I was incorrect.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:17 PM   #6761
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Juan's busy hiding out cause he took the Five-0 2200cc Injectors i sponsored him and sold them and won't respond to me anymore.
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:52 PM   #6762
amalgrover
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^
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Old 12-28-2012, 08:56 PM   #6763
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Ron

Sponser me a built 2.5 block and I won't sell it.

LOL.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:01 PM   #6764
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does Ron build engines?
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:02 PM   #6765
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negative ghost rider. he probably meant something like "ron buy me an MPS LR motor"
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:22 PM   #6766
wrxsubiemod
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Dude that's a ****ty move
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:43 PM   #6767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
Which ID's did you use? What did you go with afterwards and what was the result? I suppose I need to hear the whole story. Having played with more ID's than a few of us can count, I've YET to have a bad one/set.

EDIT: Looking at your posts, it looks like you had ID2000's... That's a big injector. I've gotten these to idle nicely before, however, going SD helps make the process much easier. I also recognize your car from ICC. The white STi parked next to the black Evo in the same section as you was running the ID2000's that I was able to make idle correctly. From what I see on your thread, you went from a 2,200cc injector to a 1,400cc injector... THERE'S your problem. Bigger injectors take a bit more work.

That was just it, at idle (1000 RPM) the car would pop and stumble and AFR's were very inconsistent, I tried tuning both with an AP and with open source..
the car WOULD not idle at 14.5:1 or even 15.5:1 the best we could get was 11.5:1 at 1k rpm, SD would have most likely saved it but that wasn't available at the time for AP or for Open source.

ultimately I went with Denso 1400CC injectors and upgraded the back half of the fuel system, this helped increase flow to the injectors taking some stress off of the injectors and the size of injector I needed.

That said the ID's worked fine under WOT or over 3k RPM's but It wouldnt idle and coming up to stop lights it would die and miss-fire wildly, it sounded like there was popcorn in the intercooler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
that story is pretty crazy and very opposite of any interaction I've had with them.

jnorth, who were you dealing with? ID directly or a reseller? Some resellers are poor at communicating with customers and don't want anything to do with the return process.
Lastly, what were the issues you were having and which injectors did you run?
I dealt directly with ID, I couldnt get the injectors to Idle after having 3 tuners attempt to tune the car, I called several through out the country hearing the same story "on the stock ECU those injectors are too large"


We found the core problem was that the hardware on the ECU simply doesnt have powerful enouch injector Drivers to drive the injectors at idle.

my options were to go to speed density (not available) reduce the size of injectors, or get a stand alone ECU.

I chose to change out the fuel system set-up.

IF ID would have offered a 1600CC size I would have attempted some sort of exchange, but 1,000's were too small for my application.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:22 PM   #6768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorth85 View Post
That was just it, at idle (1000 RPM) the car would pop and stumble and AFR's were very inconsistent, I tried tuning both with an AP and with open source..
the car WOULD not idle at 14.5:1 or even 15.5:1 the best we could get was 11.5:1 at 1k rpm, SD would have most likely saved it but that wasn't available at the time for AP or for Open source.

ultimately I went with Denso 1400CC injectors and upgraded the back half of the fuel system, this helped increase flow to the injectors taking some stress off of the injectors and the size of injector I needed.

That said the ID's worked fine under WOT or over 3k RPM's but It wouldnt idle and coming up to stop lights it would die and miss-fire wildly, it sounded like there was popcorn in the intercooler.
Yep, a big MAF and massive injectors will do that. I can't comment on their CS as they've always treated me right. The injectors themselves were probably fine. Injectors that big also put you at the point of being at the minimum IPW (side feed Five-O 1,200's were terrible here) . Cobb ATR now has the ability to lower that number. IIRC, I had those ID2000's idling around 750 RPM.

I remember the days of 1,000cc injectors idling nicely was unheard of.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:40 PM   #6769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post

Yep, a big MAF and massive injectors will do that. I can't comment on their CS as they've always treated me right. The injectors themselves were probably fine. Injectors that big also put you at the point of being at the minimum IPW (side feed Five-O 1,200's were terrible here) . Cobb ATR now has the ability to lower that number. IIRC, I had those ID2000's idling around 750 RPM.

I remember the days of 1,000cc injectors idling nicely was unheard of.
I am running a 76mm MAF housing so that probably had some to do with it. The AP software had just come out with the feature to lower IPW but it still wasn't enough.

I am going to SD in the spring and running an 70mm CAI to get rid of the hot air intake, it'll be nice to not worry about hear soak so much.

I've learned that the Evo's have no issues running the 2k's but then again they are ahead of us in the development world.

Im now at 78% DC on the 1400's with my current fuel system setup.

I designed the back half to never need replaced or upgraded.
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:57 AM   #6770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
...for the record those are my wife's hands not mine ...
LOL @ making your wife hold the print out so you could take a picture instead of just setting it down. Haha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorth85 View Post
I am running a 76mm MAF housing so that probably had some to do with it. The AP software had just come out with the feature to lower IPW but it still wasn't enough.

I am going to SD in the spring and running an 70mm CAI to get rid of the hot air intake, it'll be nice to not worry about hear soak so much.

I've learned that the Evo's have no issues running the 2k's but then again they are ahead of us in the development world.

Im now at 78% DC on the 1400's with my current fuel system setup.

I designed the back half to never need replaced or upgraded.
I am running a 73mm intake and FiveO 1200's and I don't have any issues idling at stock RPMs. Tuned on open source by Nuke. I'm not sure what injectors I'd go with if I have to go larger though.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:21 PM   #6771
Maxwell Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorth85 View Post

That was just it, at idle (1000 RPM) the car would pop and stumble and AFR's were very inconsistent, I tried tuning both with an AP and with open source..
the car WOULD not idle at 14.5:1 or even 15.5:1 the best we could get was 11.5:1 at 1k rpm, SD would have most likely saved it but that wasn't available at the time for AP or for Open source.

ultimately I went with Denso 1400CC injectors and upgraded the back half of the fuel system, this helped increase flow to the injectors taking some stress off of the injectors and the size of injector I needed.

That said the ID's worked fine under WOT or over 3k RPM's but It wouldnt idle and coming up to stop lights it would die and miss-fire wildly, it sounded like there was popcorn in the intercooler.

I dealt directly with ID, I couldnt get the injectors to Idle after having 3 tuners attempt to tune the car, I called several through out the country hearing the same story "on the stock ECU those injectors are too large"

We found the core problem was that the hardware on the ECU simply doesnt have powerful enouch injector Drivers to drive the injectors at idle.

my options were to go to speed density (not available) reduce the size of injectors, or get a stand alone ECU.

I chose to change out the fuel system set-up.

IF ID would have offered a 1600CC size I would have attempted some sort of exchange, but 1,000's were too small for my application.
Well see, it wasn't the injectors' fault. ID was correct. It wasn't until recently that you could get injectors that big to work on the factory ecu. It has nothing to do with driver voltage. The minimum allowed pulse width programmed in the ecu was too large and short pulse adder information was wrong. The ecu lacked the ability to provide a short enough pulse due to coding that had not been discovered yet.

You are blaming ID for something that isn't their fault.

Now there are plenty of cars running 2200cc injectors on the factory ecu thanks to Cobb.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:39 PM   #6772
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user error should really be RULED OUT, before slinging mud.

how many cars blow up due to mechanical failure like boost control line blew off and the tuner is blamed?

how many thousands of sets of injectors work well that you never hear about because people only type when they are complaining...?
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:53 PM   #6773
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I have a custom 3" cai and 1200cc ev14 from fiveo and she idles fine as well .
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Old 12-29-2012, 01:00 PM   #6774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
LOL @ making your wife hold the print out so you could take a picture instead of just setting it down. Haha.

you have to keep letting them know who runs things or they walk all over you...


...but seriously, the flash on my phone kept flushing it out when it was set down on something, and with the flash off it was too dark. so i had the wife hold it further away from me so the flash couldn't flush out the writing.
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Old 12-29-2012, 02:00 PM   #6775
jnorth85
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I never blamed the injector its self. I understood exactly what caused the problem.

However I was told by ID directly that the injectors would drop in and tune just as any other large injectors.
Once I exhausted all reasonable options I expected ID to assist.
That is where I find the customer service lacking.
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