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Old 02-13-2013, 08:52 PM   #6926
manitou
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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
wait...so you made 450wtq on a stock ej255 with 126k on it, and you blame the IAT compensations?
Did you sell your WRX and what up with your Forester? Got that on E85 yet?
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:55 PM   #6927
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
probably too much timing. People seem to think that e85= 7 more degrees of timing when it only means 2.5 to 5.
If I was you I'd go easy on these kind of comments! That's my opinion
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:01 PM   #6928
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post
If I was you I'd go easy on these kind of comments! That's my opinion
excuse me?

someone mentioned they popped #2 and #4 on e85. That's crazy. E85, if it's even just a mediocre quality e85 is very very knock resistant. So either the car had pure **** injectors in it and fueling was uneven, or it had too much timing. Since it was #2 and #4, which just so happen to be the two cylinders with EXTRA timing in them as part of the knock control system, then I have to lean towards timing.

I don't know who tuned it. I don't care. I didn't throw stones at anyone in particular.

If I tuned it, that doesn't change the fact that those two cylinders popped. I'm not infallible. I make mistakes too.

Regardless, I stand by my comment.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:07 PM   #6929
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post
Did you sell your WRX and what up with your Forester? Got that on E85 yet?

Yeah, the wrx is sold. The FXT should be going on E85 and getting a full 2011 STI suspension and wheels once I get home in a month or two. I can't wait...I hate the factory tune!
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:21 PM   #6930
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Ok so here are some images for you that I scanned out of a book that I like to read and reference when I'm in the learning mood.
The book was written by professors at MIT who had a lot of fun utilizing their engine laboratory and many other resources. This book is THE authority when it comes to learning how engines function.


So, first image is of cylinder pressure with adequate timing with and without knock. If you notice the difference in magnitude of pressures between events and then compare it to the second image that shows an engine that is NOT knocking, but is over timed. You will see that the magnitude of cylinder pressure increase is practically the same. So in both engines, the cylinder pressure is high enough to cause damage.

The second image basically shows what happens when tuners apply too much timing to e85 engines. What you get is blown head gaskets, cracked pistons, spun rod bearings etc. You can also see the effect the timing has on torque output by looking at the graph on the right. That will help you understand what MBT actually is.

Moral of the story: By over timing an engine you can cause just as much harmful cylinder pressures as knock.

If you look even closer, you'll see that the peak pressure in the overtimed engine occur just past TDC, maybe 10*ATDC. In the second engine it occurred at 20ATDC. So if these were the same engines with just different fuels, you would get MORE damage from the knock free over timed engine on high quality fuel than you would get on the knocking engine.

So yeah, I still stand by my comment. It wasn't meant to offend or insult, it was merely just an observation of what probably happened.

Unless you know of some other mystical force other than cylinder pressure that cracks pistons... anyone?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg cylinder pressure.jpg (57.2 KB, 81 views)
File Type: jpg cylinderpressuretoomuchtiming.jpg (49.7 KB, 249 views)
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:25 PM   #6931
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If you hadn't performed a compression test before hand, I would say it was possible that one small crack already existed on both pistons and the higher power output from the tune caused them to propagate and finally cause total loss of the ring land.

It's possible.

In the end, that means it had too much timing on the tune before it. Regardless, pistons fail from improper cylinder pressure as a function of fuel mixture and timing. As a tuner, our job is to manage cylinder pressure, plain and simple.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:36 PM   #6932
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
excuse me?

someone mentioned they popped #2 and #4 on e85. That's crazy. E85, if it's even just a mediocre quality e85 is very very knock resistant. So either the car had pure **** injectors in it and fueling was uneven, or it had too much timing. Since it was #2 and #4, which just so happen to be the two cylinders with EXTRA timing in them as part of the knock control system, then I have to lean towards timing.

I don't know who tuned it. I don't care. I didn't throw stones at anyone in particular.

If I tuned it, that doesn't change the fact that those two cylinders popped. I'm not infallible. I make mistakes too.

Regardless, I stand by my comment.
I don't know, do you need to be excused? I wasn't excusing anyone

I think I explained the situation pretty well and I take the blame for pushing the whole thing probably to hard at it's clock time. What I said was that if I had set it up for a SD tune or if I had moved the IAT to the IC in front of the TB the motor might have lasted longer with the correct timing compensation. That's my fault doesn't matter who tuned it! It was August and it was hot when I broke it. For all I know they might have been weakened from prior episodes. I did find those 2 injectors had slight boost leaks leaks before the tune. They cracked, and blew oil by but it still made good power! The block is not even scored at all and as a matter of fact I think I sold it and the new owner is going to do a light home and drop in stock pistons for a low HP build.

The injectors were perfect, no corrections needed, idled perfectly and they are perfectly balanced through the full IDC range.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:39 PM   #6933
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injectors were perfect? Not the same ones you just changed out then I take it.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:46 PM   #6934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
Ok so here are some images for you that I scanned out of a book that I like to read and reference when I'm in the learning mood.
The book was written by professors at MIT who had a lot of fun utilizing their engine laboratory and many other resources. This book is THE authority when it comes to learning how engines function.

So, first image is of cylinder pressure with adequate timing with and without knock. If you notice the difference in magnitude of pressures between events and then compare it to the second image that shows an engine that is NOT knocking, but is over timed. You will see that the magnitude of cylinder pressure increase is practically the same. So in both engines, the cylinder pressure is high enough to cause damage.

The second image basically shows what happens when tuners apply too much timing to e85 engines. What you get is blown head gaskets, cracked pistons, spun rod bearings etc. You can also see the effect the timing has on torque output by looking at the graph on the right. That will help you understand what MBT actually is.

Moral of the story: By over timing an engine you can cause just as much harmful cylinder pressures as knock.

If you look even closer, you'll see that the peak pressure in the overtimed engine occur just past TDC, maybe 10*ATDC. In the second engine it occurred at 20ATDC. So if these were the same engines with just different fuels, you would get MORE damage from the knock free over timed engine on high quality fuel than you would get on the knocking engine.

So yeah, I still stand by my comment. It wasn't meant to offend or insult, it was merely just an observation of what probably happened.

Unless you know of some other mystical force other than cylinder pressure that cracks pistons... anyone?
Unfortunately some tuners don't understand this.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:46 PM   #6935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
Ok so here are some images for you that I scanned out of a book that I like to read and reference when I'm in the learning mood.
The book was written by professors at MIT who had a lot of fun utilizing their engine laboratory and many other resources. This book is THE authority when it comes to learning how engines function.


So, first image is of cylinder pressure with adequate timing with and without knock. If you notice the difference in magnitude of pressures between events and then compare it to the second image that shows an engine that is NOT knocking, but is over timed. You will see that the magnitude of cylinder pressure increase is practically the same. So in both engines, the cylinder pressure is high enough to cause damage.

The second image basically shows what happens when tuners apply too much timing to e85 engines. What you get is blown head gaskets, cracked pistons, spun rod bearings etc. You can also see the effect the timing has on torque output by looking at the graph on the right. That will help you understand what MBT actually is.

Moral of the story: By over timing an engine you can cause just as much harmful cylinder pressures as knock.

If you look even closer, you'll see that the peak pressure in the overtimed engine occur just past TDC, maybe 10*ATDC. In the second engine it occurred at 20ATDC. So if these were the same engines with just different fuels, you would get MORE damage from the knock free over timed engine on high quality fuel than you would get on the knocking engine.

So yeah, I still stand by my comment. It wasn't meant to offend or insult, it was merely just an observation of what probably happened.

Unless you know of some other mystical force other than cylinder pressure that cracks pistons... anyone?
Yeah I know we are talking timing and cylinder pressures, I'm not refuting that at all. I do understand this! Thanks for elaborating on this a bit more!

I would never push a stock block that hard again with the IAT pre-turbo in the factory MAF location. It may be OK for a factory tune or stage 2 but not pushing the limits with E85 even with the VF. It's too much pressure to rely on OEM IAT location for proper compensation.That was my lesson here!
Over and out on this issue!!
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:52 PM   #6936
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
injectors were perfect? Not the same ones you just changed out then I take it.
No I was running DW 850 TF's for 3 years and they are still perfect. They weren't big enough for my current build. The bad ones I had were Denso based DW 1100 TF's. One was 13% off at 20% IDC and caused fits from idle up to about 3500 rpms. I sent them back DW 4 times in all and the last was when they took them back on warranty and gave me new EV14 1000's.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:54 PM   #6937
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yeah this isn't a witch hunt.

It is my opinion that EVERY car when tuned should have the IAT post intercooler. We do it on as many cars as possible. Subaru programmed the rich fuel curves for a reason. When you "tune" a car you usually lean it out to a more ideal AFR than subaru had it programmed for. Moving the IAT helps to ensure that you help make up for the parameters that you are changing and the more hostile conditions the engine will experience since you are removing the extra fuel that was being provided as protection.

The MAF sensor degrades over time and Subaru doesn't use a "plausibility" map to verify the MAF signal. "System to lean" does not apply to open loop operation. 15% is the trigger for that code which is usually the only code that a degrading MAF will give. If you get tuned on a good maf and it degrades 13%, you'll be WAY lean. It is my opinion that Subaru adds a lot of fuel to keep that from happening. Hoping to pop the system too lean code prior to the top end becoming so lean that it melts the engine down. At least, that's how I picture it after going through these damn ecus so much. It's the only thing that makes sense.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:54 PM   #6938
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Originally Posted by 06rexwagon View Post
Unfortunately some tuners don't understand this.
That's not the issue in this case! OK, let's move on here boys!!
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:55 PM   #6939
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post

That's not the issue in this case! OK, let's move on here boys!!
I wasn't talking about you at all. I've seen some really strong builds have bearing and rod failures because of too much timing.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:59 PM   #6940
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
yeah this isn't a witch hunt.

It is my opinion that EVERY car when tuned should have the IAT post intercooler. We do it on as many cars as possible. Subaru programmed the rich fuel curves for a reason. When you "tune" a car you usually lean it out to a more ideal AFR than subaru had it programmed for. Moving the IAT helps to ensure that you help make up for the parameters that you are changing and the more hostile conditions the engine will experience since you are removing the extra fuel that was being provided as protection.

The MAF sensor degrades over time and Subaru doesn't use a "plausibility" map to verify the MAF signal. "System to lean" does not apply to open loop operation. 15% is the trigger for that code which is usually the only code that a degrading MAF will give. If you get tuned on a good maf and it degrades 13%, you'll be WAY lean. It is my opinion that Subaru adds a lot of fuel to keep that from happening. Hoping to pop the system too lean code prior to the top end becoming so lean that it melts the engine down. At least, that's how I picture it after going through these damn ecus so much. It's the only thing that makes sense.
Thanks for this post! I know this is the way it needs to be because I got spanked for not doing it that way. I'm OK with it, **** I had 126k on the clock and a lot of fun with that motor. My only regret is I did not put it in the 11's which I'm sure it would have been if it lasted a bit longer
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:00 PM   #6941
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Originally Posted by 06rexwagon View Post
I wasn't talking about you at all. I've seen some really strong builds have bearing and rod failures because of too much timing.
No worries!!

All of this is constructive for sure and a good discussion!! I just know that all the good tuners are very sensitive and diligent about their work and I am grateful for that!!
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:00 PM   #6942
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Originally Posted by 06rexwagon View Post
I wasn't talking about you at all. I've seen some really strong builds have bearing and rod failures because of too much timing.
I've seen a LOT of tuners blow head gaskets on e85 before the rods go too.

Sadly, the V8 hangover is strong in many. In the old days, you loosened the distributor cap, twisted it for more timing and locked her down for more power after flipping over the top of the air cleaner. Many tuners tune like that. They don't understand how close modern computers have allowed the OEMs to get the tunes. I run MUCH less timing than OEM tunes on these Subarus. That's quite the opposite of old carburetor V8's
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:07 PM   #6943
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
I've seen a LOT of tuners blow head gaskets on e85 before the rods go too.

Sadly, the V8 hangover is strong in many. In the old days, you loosened the distributor cap, twisted it for more timing and locked her down for more power after flipping over the top of the air cleaner. Many tuners tune like that. They don't understand how close modern computers have allowed the OEMs to get the tunes. I run MUCH less timing than OEM tunes on these Subarus. That's quite the opposite of old carburetor V8's
Less timing and more boost? Keeping that torque curve a bit more rounded and smooth? I know this is simplistic in statement!
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:19 AM   #6944
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
The book was written by professors at MIT who had a lot of fun utilizing their engine laboratory and many other resources. This book is THE authority when it comes to learning how engines function.
Link to said book?
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:15 PM   #6945
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Link? It's next to me on my desk...

You can see the title in the picture.
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Old 02-14-2013, 01:15 PM   #6946
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:33 PM   #6947
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Since we got some tuners lurking around in here...i would like some opinions:

First, anyone have any isues with the 02-30 ECM not liking the Omni Power 3 bar MAP? My WRX wouldn't idle correctly with the map sensor in it due to the ECM missing some compensation table for the bigger map. Actually, i think i was told the compensation table needed does not allow negative numbers. The idle would start out around 1000 and slowly creep up to 2000 or so. If you revved the engine, it would come back down to 900-1000 rpm. As soon as we swapped the stock map sensor in, the car idles perfectly. However, without the larger map sensor, the car has no idea how much bost it is runing and can't be asked to protect itself in case of an overboost scenario. Which could blow the engine.

Anyone having any similar issues with the 02-03 ECM? What are my options if i can't overcome these issues with the 02-03 ECM?? Can i simply switch to an 04-05 WRX ecm? I know i can go AEM or Hydra, or some other ecm replacement...but would rather avoid that option if at all possible.


Second, we ran out of fuel at 430-ish horsepower on my 2.5L hybrid with an FP HTA71 on it. I'm running a walbro 300 and stock rails/regulator/pressure with the ID 1000. Do i need the Wally 465 to get to 475-480 WHP? If i can get away with fuel rails, regulator (higher base pressure), and new fuel pump...then i would really rather that. I already don't like the cold-start and driveability issues when cold that the E85 and 1000 injectors have...i certainly have no desire to go to a 2000cc injector and compound the issues.

Thanks in advance for the advice.
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:47 PM   #6948
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Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
Since we got some tuners lurking around in here...i would like some opinions:

First, anyone have any isues with the 02-30 ECM not liking the Omni Power 3 bar MAP? My WRX wouldn't idle correctly with the map sensor in it due to the ECM missing some compensation table for the bigger map. Actually, i think i was told the compensation table needed does not allow negative numbers. The idle would start out around 1000 and slowly creep up to 2000 or so. If you revved the engine, it would come back down to 900-1000 rpm. As soon as we swapped the stock map sensor in, the car idles perfectly. However, without the larger map sensor, the car has no idea how much bost it is runing and can't be asked to protect itself in case of an overboost scenario. Which could blow the engine.

Anyone having any similar issues with the 02-03 ECM? What are my options if i can't overcome these issues with the 02-03 ECM?? Can i simply switch to an 04-05 WRX ecm? I know i can go AEM or Hydra, or some other ecm replacement...but would rather avoid that option if at all possible.


Second, we ran out of fuel at 430-ish horsepower on my 2.5L hybrid with an FP HTA71 on it. I'm running a walbro 300 and stock rails/regulator/pressure with the ID 1000. Do i need the Wally 465 to get to 475-480 WHP? If i can get away with fuel rails, regulator (higher base pressure), and new fuel pump...then i would really rather that. I already don't like the cold-start and driveability issues when cold that the E85 and 1000 injectors have...i certainly have no desire to go to a 2000cc injector and compound the issues.

Thanks in advance for the advice.
If you search a bit you can find some documentation on the MAP sensor issues with the 16 bit ECUs. If I recall correctly, its something do with a limitation of not being able to put the right scaling values in. I only have a couple guys running upgraded MAP sensor on 16 bit ECUs and I directed them to the AEM 3.5 bar sensors which I was able to scale correctly for it and they didn't have any issues with idle or reading the correct boost.

With that pump you are likely dropping pressure at your current WHP so an upgraded FPR, rails, etc isn't going to help. Your issue isn't pressure, your issue is flow which is needed to keep the pressure up. I'd suggest going for the bigger pump and rails at your power level. Doing a hard wire and bumping base pressure should get you a more fuel out of your injectors.

Unless you are running high ethanol blends in a cold region, your cold start issues probably can't be blamed completely on running E85. Talk to your tuner about this and ask them to adjust the cranking and warm up fueling correctly for E85. Your car should be able to start and warm-up almost nearly as well as gasoline when this area is tuned correctly. I don't have a single Subaru on E85 that has trouble with cold starts even down to the negative temps we saw this winter. This includes people with TGV deletes or lack of TGVs (EJ207s).
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:27 PM   #6949
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Thanks, I found a few with that title. Wasn't sure which one you were actually referring to.
Happy valentines day to me.
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:31 PM   #6950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
Since we got some tuners lurking around in here...i would like some opinions:

First, anyone have any isues with the 02-30 ECM not liking the Omni Power 3 bar MAP? My WRX wouldn't idle correctly with the map sensor in it due to the ECM missing some compensation table for the bigger map. Actually, i think i was told the compensation table needed does not allow negative numbers. The idle would start out around 1000 and slowly creep up to 2000 or so. If you revved the engine, it would come back down to 900-1000 rpm. As soon as we swapped the stock map sensor in, the car idles perfectly. However, without the larger map sensor, the car has no idea how much bost it is runing and can't be asked to protect itself in case of an overboost scenario. Which could blow the engine.

Anyone having any similar issues with the 02-03 ECM? What are my options if i can't overcome these issues with the 02-03 ECM?? Can i simply switch to an 04-05 WRX ecm? I know i can go AEM or Hydra, or some other ecm replacement...but would rather avoid that option if at all possible.


Second, we ran out of fuel at 430-ish horsepower on my 2.5L hybrid with an FP HTA71 on it. I'm running a walbro 300 and stock rails/regulator/pressure with the ID 1000. Do i need the Wally 465 to get to 475-480 WHP? If i can get away with fuel rails, regulator (higher base pressure), and new fuel pump...then i would really rather that. I already don't like the cold-start and driveability issues when cold that the E85 and 1000 injectors have...i certainly have no desire to go to a 2000cc injector and compound the issues.

Thanks in advance for the advice.
Like stated above, the issue is due to the limitation of the ECU not being able to put in a negative offset number.
You can get around this by using an AEM 3.5 BAR MAP sensor, but they are expensive compared to the Omni MAP sensor.
I doubt you're maxing out the stock fuel rails at that power level, but you're probably getting close, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to upgrade while you have it apart.
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Spacific E85 Tuning thread Here ? discopotato03 Engine Management & Tuning 1 09-09-2008 11:01 AM
Did anyone hear the one about the Italian army and the IRAQI satiation? Asinine Off-Topic 3 09-20-2005 07:06 PM


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