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Old 03-05-2013, 07:39 PM   #7101
Maxwell Power
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Originally Posted by 06rexwagon View Post
I don't know how much was added but it was a different engine and fuel this time. It did have a weird issue where it would misfire or break up at full boost pretty often.
not surprised in the slightest.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:50 PM   #7102
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wow just wow thats a schitload of timing and ding ding ding Dom called it right on the head from the getgo.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:54 PM   #7103
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That looks an awful lot like a PSIa timing chart programmed into an ECU that's using PSIg.

At first, I looked at it and thought the axis was PSIa and thought it wasn't that bad... then I saw the negative numbers and that the axis was labeled PSIg... ouch.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:28 PM   #7104
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Another piece of the puzzle is that it bent 2 rods and they were both on the same side of the engine. Car had been running 3 step colder plugs but changed to 2 step colder to try to fix the breaking up.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:34 PM   #7105
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2/4? ^

and wow on the way cold plugs. sounds like there was just some bad tuning involved/ standalones dont tune themselves and are only as good as the tuner.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:35 PM   #7106
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are you using crawford timing idlers to fix cam timing?

For e85, I rarely go more than one step colder. In some cases I'll go get a plug that doesn't have a protruding electrode. That helps pull the electrode out of the charge mixture. Since there is so much more fuel in the cylinder vs with pump gas, and fuel doesn't conduct electricity, there is a larger effective gap. Air doesn't conduct either, but the more non conductive material you place between two points of conduction the more resistance you'll get.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:43 PM   #7107
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sounds like there were alot of things stacked against this motor from the get go...


side note...Cam, sorry I didn't make it out for Isaac's tune. We got called into work thanks to some people I came here with not being able to behave themselves on Saturday nights

Last edited by amalgrover; 03-05-2013 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:43 PM   #7108
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whats up with the idlers question Dom?
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:47 PM   #7109
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what kinda plug gaps are you guys using on e85 at say 34-36 psi? i have heard stock coil packs and .022 gap and i should be good past 30 psi. havent tried yet though
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:47 PM   #7110
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Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
whats up with the idlers question Dom?
he bent rods on one side of the engine. What affects one side and not the other? Injectors are usually affected front to rear if someone goes parallel with their fuel setup (mistake many make).

The only real thing is either exhaust back pressure or cam timing.

Since I'm pretty sure this had a full-race manifold on it, I don't think it's back pressure unless he's running only one wastegate.

So cam timing is the obvious answer. What affects cam timing? AVCS maps, which could have been an issue since he was running an AEM and they have tons of issues with AVCS if your tuner isn't super familiar with tuning avcs on an AEM. HOWEVER, with his power levels I would assume that they didn't even use avcs because they used a big cam and this thing was laggy as fizznuck. So that leads me to the other common mistake people make and that is change the idlers to get the cam timing marks to line up perfectly. The problem with that is that it results in about 15-30 psi difference in static compression from one side to the other when you do that.... little known fact. Changing compression by doing that obviously affects AFR and MBT for that half of the engine, thus more cylinder pressure and bent rods.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:53 PM   #7111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post

he bent rods on one side of the engine. What affects one side and not the other? Injectors are usually affected front to rear if someone goes parallel with their fuel setup (mistake many make).

The only real thing is either exhaust back pressure or cam timing.

Since I'm pretty sure this had a full-race manifold on it, I don't think it's back pressure unless he's running only one wastegate.

So cam timing is the obvious answer. What affects cam timing? AVCS maps, which could have been an issue since he was running an AEM and they have tons of issues with AVCS if your tuner isn't super familiar with tuning avcs on an AEM. HOWEVER, with his power levels I would assume that they didn't even use avcs because they used a big cam and this thing was laggy as fizznuck. So that leads me to the other common mistake people make and that is change the idlers to get the cam timing marks to line up perfectly. The problem with that is that it results in about 15-30 psi difference in static compression from one side to the other when you do that.... little known fact. Changing compression by doing that obviously affects AFR and MBT for that half of the engine, thus more cylinder pressure and bent rods.
Great discussion. Thank you guys. He doesn't have avcs and it is running a single scroll and single wastegate.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:54 PM   #7112
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Originally Posted by 06rexwagon View Post
Great discussion. Thank you guys. He doesn't have avcs and it is running a single scroll and single wastegate.
AH. I must have confused this car with another.

Yes or no on the crawford timing adjuster?

No build thread?

What's the fuel system like?
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:58 PM   #7113
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post

AH. I must have confused this car with another.

Yes or no on the crawford timing adjuster?

No build thread?

What's the fuel system like?
That's a no on the adjuster. Has dual in tank walbros and id2000. I think ap rails but not sure.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:00 PM   #7114
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hate ap rails. Do you know the version? They are known for uneven fueling and tons of misfires.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:02 PM   #7115
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hate ap rails. Do you know the version? They are known for uneven fueling and tons of misfires.
Not even sure that's what's on it. That's what I run on my car. I didn't have anything to do with any aspect of this build. Just looking out for a friend.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:10 PM   #7116
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And what rails are best?
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:16 PM   #7117
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i personally would choose my aeromotives over the perrin/ap's.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:46 PM   #7118
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Correction it's dual aeromotive pumps and a killer b header with single 44mm tial.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:50 PM   #7119
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Not even sure that's what's on it. That's what I run on my car. I didn't have anything to do with any aspect of this build. Just looking out for a friend.
I asked with version because the V1's were the worst for the misfires. They had the feed and exit on teh same side then crossdrilled them together inside the rail. This gave it too many parallel paths and no ability for the fuel to evacuate vapor pockets.

Vapor pockets are a big problem in some fuel rail designs and the number one reason I don't EVER do parallel rails on return style fuel systems.

Fuel line pulse damping is an important part of a fuel system as well. Under certain pulse widths and rpms you can actually cause large pressure fluctuations and even internal fuel rail resistance to go up. This is something that OEM manufacturers compensate for and it's rarely thought of in aftermarket systems.

Parallel systems are known for problems. Heck look at the 08+ STi. People are removing the parallel system and going to series to help get rid of the bad hesitation those cars get around 2800rpm.

The newest AP rails ( I think V3) have a singe in and out on opposite sides of the rail and they appear to be -6AN instead of the old -4AN. I haven't run them, but I bet they are much better than the old design. If I had a set, I'd still run them in series.

The new Perrin rails are not cross drilled between the goes-in and goes-outs either so I haven't had a lot of problems with them. The older V1's were. The Perrin side feed rails are miserable too because they enter at the center, then discharge out the side. One injector is operated like a dead head system and the other is normal. I've had multiple issues where heat soak has caused vapor lock in the 'dead headed' injector. Unseat the injector and you hear a hiss of vapor before fuel comes out. Re-seat it and it runs great for another 5 minutes or so until vapor builds up around the injector.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:51 PM   #7120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06rexwagon View Post
Correction it's dual aeromotive pumps and a killer b header with single 44mm tial.
what cams?

actually, we should probably discuss this in the thread that is dedicated to the rod failure.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:55 PM   #7121
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what cams?

actually, we should probably discuss this in the thread that is dedicated to the rod failure.
We can if you like.
He has bc280 cams.
He sent a pic of the bearings. Not that bad.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:06 PM   #7122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06rexwagon View Post

We can if you like.
He has bc280 cams.
He sent a pic of the bearings. Not that bad.
This is the Vader car correct? Very nice car! Wow that's too bad! Hopefully you can help him out with the next build and tune!
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:25 PM   #7123
06rexwagon
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Originally Posted by stretchedk7 View Post
what kinda plug gaps are you guys using on e85 at say 34-36 psi? i have heard stock coil packs and .022 gap and i should be good past 30 psi. havent tried yet though
I run 1 step colder iridium with .025-.026"
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:33 PM   #7124
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We can if you like.
He has bc280 cams.
He sent a pic of the bearings. Not that bad.
picture isn't too helpful. It does look good on the side of the bearing, but there's no load there. A better look at the part in red is what's needed to determine bearing condition.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bearing.jpg (82.7 KB, 22 views)
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:38 PM   #7125
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I think this is the load side.
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