Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Tuesday July 29, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-05-2013, 10:44 PM   #7126
kpadill2
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 266208
Join Date: Dec 2010
Default

What's up guys? The car in question here is mine. I've been sorta unmotivated lately so I appreciate Cameron, who is actually my competition (says a lot about him), for trying to figure out what went wrong here.

We took the car down for end of season, my car hasn't seen a lot of track but it has REALLY gotten beaten on for the small amount of miles. The car was running and had just seen a high mph pull a few days earlier. To all of our absolute complete surprise we found two bent rods. The one cam posted and you'd really have to hold it in your hand to see it in the other rod.

A question that comes to me is when could the rod have folded and how long could it have lasted? Why would the rod fold before any real crushing of the bearing?

I appreciate the good discussion in here about the amount of timing in the tune. We are hoping to have her fired up here in a week.

There was some interesting discussion with Carrillo about this issue. We just received a new design that they had already been working on. I am told they knew exactly how the rod folded when we came to them.




This is the only image I've got of the new design. You can see some thicker ribs but it's also thicker on the rod as well

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by kpadill2; 03-05-2013 at 10:54 PM.
kpadill2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 10:56 PM   #7127
Maxwell Power
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 190729
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Marysville, WA
Default

welcome to the thread!

Bearings look freakin' great with some minor pitting.
Maxwell Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 11:25 PM   #7128
manitou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:
2006 XTI Limited
OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP

Default

I really like your car! Glad you're getting her sorted out and then a better tune! Fellow Killer B header fan!
manitou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 11:57 PM   #7129
amalgrover
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 183480
Join Date: Jun 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Valdosta, GA
Vehicle:
2011 Audi A3 Quattro
2009 Forester XT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpadill2 View Post
What's up guys? The car in question here is mine. I've been sorta unmotivated lately so I appreciate Cameron, who is actually my competition (says a lot about him), for trying to figure out what went wrong here.

We took the car down for end of season, my car hasn't seen a lot of track but it has REALLY gotten beaten on for the small amount of miles. The car was running and had just seen a high mph pull a few days earlier. To all of our absolute complete surprise we found two bent rods. The one cam posted and you'd really have to hold it in your hand to see it in the other rod.

A question that comes to me is when could the rod have folded and how long could it have lasted? Why would the rod fold before any real crushing of the bearing?

I appreciate the good discussion in here about the amount of timing in the tune. We are hoping to have her fired up here in a week.

There was some interesting discussion with Carrillo about this issue. We just received a new design that they had already been working on. I am told they knew exactly how the rod folded when we came to them.




This is the only image I've got of the new design. You can see some thicker ribs but it's also thicker on the rod as well


I had an Element H-beam snap clean in two on me last year after making six 0-140mph passes on a pretty aggressive map. The motor had just over 9000 miles on it, and was putting down 511whp/470wtq in Airboy's spreadsheet on this map.

After speaking with some people who also had recently lost some H-beams in similar ways (Eagle and Manley rods to be specific), it appeared that essentially for everyone for the most part it was a combo of pushing the rods too close to their rated chp as well as pushing the tune/engine too close to it's limit in terms of cylinder pressures.

Since these 2011-2012 incidents occurred, quite a few companies have released new or revised versions of their H-beams that are rated much higher than previous ones were. I have not had the opportunity to really speak with or compare the differences between the older H-beams vs. the newer ones, but if I had to guess, I would think it would be similar to the findings that you see in your picture posted above. Just a much better/thicker construction all around.
amalgrover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 06:03 AM   #7130
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen 7.37@95
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

+12345

I wonder how much added safety are we getting with the new designs?

Also, Cam how much whp and wtq was that car making?
juanmedina is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 06:40 AM   #7131
manitou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:
2006 XTI Limited
OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
+12345

I wonder how much added safety are we getting with the new designs?

Also, Cam how much whp and wtq was that car making?
IIRC it was making 730/670 with a GTX3582 and some correction on a Dynojet.

The rods amalgrover was referring to, the Eagles and Manleys were most likely Chinese made junk. These are the good Carrillo h beam rods, still flawed but its obvious the manufacturers have to overbuild their stuff to accommodate contingencies for poor tuning like the case here. How much strength is enough?

I am using some of Doms +2mm custom super h beams that he has made by Saenz. I believe they are rated for 1000-1200 CHP, I don't remember exactly. They won't see anything close to that in my car. If H beams rods like mine and the Carrillo pro's are not enough then you should use the Pauters or Manly I beams but they are heavier by quite a bit!
manitou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 07:19 AM   #7132
sackytar
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 149262
Join Date: May 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Vehicle:
03WR Rally/XTDD/98SJ
PrimerGrey

Default

730 holy balls.
sackytar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 08:11 AM   #7133
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen 7.37@95
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
IIRC it was making 730/670 with a GTX3582 and some correction on a Dynojet.

The rods amalgrover was referring to, the Eagles and Manleys were most likely Chinese made junk. These are the good Carrillo h beam rods, still flawed but its obvious the manufacturers have to overbuild their stuff to accommodate contingencies for poor tuning like the case here. How much strength is enough?

I am using some of Doms +2mm custom super h beams that he has made by Saenz. I believe they are rated for 1000-1200 CHP, I don't remember exactly. They won't see anything close to that in my car. If H beams rods like mine and the Carrillo pro's are not enough then you should use the Pauters or Manly I beams but they are heavier by quite a bit!
I understand that, my worry is that new H-tuff seem to similar to those carrillo rods
juanmedina is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 08:26 AM   #7134
manitou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:
2006 XTI Limited
OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sackytar View Post
730 holy balls.
I had been following this car as he and I are both using Killer B Holy headers. It's a beast for sure and a super nice car, very good execution of the work!
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2415750
manitou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 08:30 AM   #7135
TPG Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 185725
Join Date: Jul 2008
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Blairsville, Pa
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06rexwagon View Post
Little beat but not horrible. Worse than I would expect from under 3k miles.
Only map he has. This is from the old e70 tune that spun a rod bearing and bent all the wrist pins at around 4k miles.
Timing was increased for the e98 tune but I don't know by how much. The aem has been sent back to get checked.



Idle timing is strange

Important to note that this is a hybrid engine with oem gasket and Cnc head chambers. Not sure of cr.
Woah!

Nate
TPG
TPG Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 08:30 AM   #7136
manitou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:
2006 XTI Limited
OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I understand that, my worry is that new H-tuff seem to similar to those carrillo rods
I know Juan, I am surprised that the Carrillo H pro beams wrinkled like that! I guess its a testament to the excessive amount of timing that was run in the tune. Like what Dom said from the get go!

I have not looked at the Manley H-Tuff rods. Where are they made? Are you going to tear down your motor to upgrade the rods now?
manitou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 09:08 AM   #7137
06rexwagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 114730
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Vehicle:
2006 WRX Limited Wag
9.9@142

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sackytar View Post
730 holy balls.
730 with a huge sae correction. 20% so uncorrected was 610 to 620.
06rexwagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 09:09 AM   #7138
jnorth85
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 76785
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: DSM iowa
Vehicle:
2000 580Whp The RSTI
SRP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06rexwagon View Post
730 with a huge sae correction. 20% so uncorrected was 610 to 620.
that's very good power for the altitude!

hopefully the new rods hold up to the abuse.
jnorth85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 09:10 AM   #7139
06rexwagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 114730
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Vehicle:
2006 WRX Limited Wag
9.9@142

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorth85 View Post

that's very good power for the altitude!

hopefully the new rods hold up to the abuse.
Yes it is. Living at 5400' is a bummer for hp.
Hopefully mine does too. My car has the same rods and made 824 sae and 711 uncorrected on the same dyno.

Last edited by 06rexwagon; 03-06-2013 at 09:16 AM.
06rexwagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 09:15 AM   #7140
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen 7.37@95
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
I know Juan, I am surprised that the Carrillo H pro beams wrinkled like that! I guess its a testament to the excessive amount of timing that was run in the tune. Like what Dom said from the get go!

I have not looked at the Manley H-Tuff rods. Where are they made? Are you going to tear down your motor to upgrade the rods now?
I have run tons of timing 30* at redline with a FP green probably making 470whp dynojet with my 07 WRX STi rods and I never had any issues with 60k miles on the rods.

No I am not taking my motor apart, if is not broke don't fix it . But I am building a spare motor better than my current motor . I have wiseco pistons, a stock crank and a case so far and I am planning on buying either BC I-beam rods or the H-Tuff soon. I want to build this motor myself.
juanmedina is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 09:17 AM   #7141
06rexwagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 114730
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Vehicle:
2006 WRX Limited Wag
9.9@142

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post

I have run tons of timing 30* at redline with a FP green probably making 470whp dynojet with my 07 WRX STi rods and I never had any issues with 60k miles on the rods.

No I am not taking my motor apart, if is not broke don't fix it . But I am building a spare motor better than my current motor . I have wiseco pistons, a stock crank and a case so far and I am planning on buying either BC I-beam rods or the H-Tuff soon. I want to build this motor myself.
Redline is one thing but peak tq is another. Cylinder pressure is highest at peak tq.
06rexwagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 09:22 AM   #7142
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen 7.37@95
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06rexwagon View Post
Redline is one thing but peak tq is another. Cylinder pressure is highest at peak tq.
well probably like 18-20 at peak torque... I can remember. Now days is way safer like 9-10* less every where
juanmedina is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 09:57 AM   #7143
stretchedk7
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 170602
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: j-ville fl
Vehicle:
06 Wrx RWD Auto
76MM-AEM-2200's

Default

its common knowledge the tune is very important. you can break turbo tuff rods or any other engine related part if the tune is whack....

juan your tune was/is aggressive but its a proper tune not copy and paste. the copy and paste thing happens alot now a days.

2 years ago went to japtrix built motor 35r blah blah blah-327 whp on their dyno at 20 psi.
month later doug tuned at top speed-450 at 25 psi lol. much faster, and smoother feeling car to boot. and richer afr from doug!
stretchedk7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 09:58 AM   #7144
stretchedk7
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 170602
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: j-ville fl
Vehicle:
06 Wrx RWD Auto
76MM-AEM-2200's

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
well probably like 18-20 at peak torque... I can remember. Now days is way safer like 9-10* less every where
and you know 20* at redline isnt the same as 20* at say 4100 rpm lol at wot
stretchedk7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 11:45 AM   #7145
slowgenius
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 48350
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh
Vehicle:
04 WRX

Default

This is a fuel question for dom. When running a series fuel rail setup is it fed in a "U" formation across the alternator head to head or a "Z" formation under the intake manifold?
slowgenius is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 11:55 AM   #7146
manitou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:
2006 XTI Limited
OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post

well probably like 18-20 at peak torque... I can remember. Now days is way safer like 9-10* less every where
Yeah maybe more like 12-14* at peak torque or less depending on build, CR and boost!
manitou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 12:25 PM   #7147
jnorth85
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 76785
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: DSM iowa
Vehicle:
2000 580Whp The RSTI
SRP

Default

Expanding on the fuel system lay-out, the series/parallel is heavily dependent on the pump/feed line size correct? same with the pulse dampeners.

Dom please shed some light on this subject for us.
jnorth85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 12:28 PM   #7148
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen 7.37@95
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stretchedk7 View Post
and you know 20* at redline isnt the same as 20* at say 4100 rpm lol at wot
Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
Yeah maybe more like 12-14* at peak torque or less depending on build, CR and boost!
I meant that I was running 18-20* at pick torque with my FP green setup. Now I run like 12-13*
juanmedina is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 12:47 PM   #7149
manitou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:
2006 XTI Limited
OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post

I meant that I was running 18-20* at pick torque with my FP green setup. Now I run like 12-13*
Looking at my logs I think Jr has my timing at peak tq more like 10-12* with my D25 heads & 9.6:1 CR with 26-27 psi boost.
manitou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 01:08 PM   #7150
stretchedk7
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 170602
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: j-ville fl
Vehicle:
06 Wrx RWD Auto
76MM-AEM-2200's

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I meant that I was running 18-20* at pick torque with my FP green setup. Now I run like 12-13*
roger that buddy. and dang thats still good timing for the green lol. was it safe?
stretchedk7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Motion Lab Tuned: Juanmedina's 2007 WRX E85 ARMY Motion Lab Tuning Proven Power Bragging 125 04-12-2010 02:57 AM
jid2 Track Car - e85 ARMY jid2 Member's Car Gallery 38 01-22-2010 10:44 PM
The Honduran army is the bravest in the world... wrxcelent Off-Topic 36 07-07-2009 08:21 AM
Spacific E85 Tuning thread Here ? discopotato03 Engine Management & Tuning 1 09-09-2008 11:01 AM
Did anyone hear the one about the Italian army and the IRAQI satiation? Asinine Off-Topic 3 09-20-2005 07:06 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.