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Old 07-23-2013, 11:39 AM   #7501
05_wRex
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post

PnL's Dynojet 28.5 psi
Nice! That where I had mine set at first on race gas, bit turned it down to 26.5-27. 95+% idc on my id1000s, lol.
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:01 PM   #7502
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Nice! That where I had mine set at first on race gas, bit turned it down to 26.5-27. 95+% idc on my id1000s, lol.
Yeah, you should be good into mid 600's DJ numbers with the 1300's. the drivability is awesome with them. We feel like they are almost better than the 1k's are down low. They felt great on pump gas also, smooth idle! Maybe its the carbon drive shaft but in slow speeds just rolling 4-6 mph they pulled away without any hesitation or stutter! They have all stainless internals so they should hold up well with e85 and the oxygenated fuels.

On another note, I know you said you wanted to keep the power down on the stock sleeves with that 6266.

FYI, I was talking a bunch with Paul Szuba yesterday about motors, reinforcements etc... He told me when they ran the 8.80/ 165 with their drag car it was on the stock case, stock crank, a 4294 and 47 psi of boost revving to 10k! eek!! They never broke that motor and made a bunch of passes on it. When they tore it down it was perfect. No signs of any stress or wear. It kind of proves what a well built, well tuned motor is capable of. I know it's not a dd but that is very impressive!
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:16 PM   #7503
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Are the 1300's are completely stainless inside? With the right nozzle, maybe they are methanol compatible.
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:26 PM   #7504
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Stock sleeves seem to be hit or miss, and possibly the 704 castings are worse. There have been quite a few 704's fail in the 500-600WHP range. Some even much lower. Like 400WHP. But I think there are quite a few 703 and older doing 600WHP or more without issue.
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:27 PM   #7505
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Are the 1300's are completely stainless inside? With the right nozzle, maybe they are methanol compatible.
Yes they are all stainless internals. Compatible with all known fuels.
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1300.html
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:55 PM   #7506
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If that is the case a much more reliable and tunable meth injection system I feel could be made.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:09 PM   #7507
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Those ID1300's seem nice. I assume they can probably do around 600WHP at stock base pressure? Maybe a little more on a higher reading dyno?
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:11 PM   #7508
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Originally Posted by xluben View Post
Stock sleeves seem to be hit or miss, and possibly the 704 castings are worse. There have been quite a few 704's fail in the 500-600WHP range. Some even much lower. Like 400WHP. But I think there are quite a few 703 and older doing 600WHP or more without issue.
I know there are plenty of documented case failures but what are the root causes? I would bet money on the tunes playing a big factor in them. So many potential build issues as well to contribute to the failures and it is easy to point to the case as the problem when the sleeve is cracked or a chunk of it is missing!
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:15 PM   #7509
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I think there was one shop that cracked at least two of them right at 550WHP or something. And they had done similar setups on older casting numbers without issue. With things like this it will be very hard to prove anything without a huge dataset. It is obviously going to be a wide distribution. The new ones may very well be slightly weaker, or it could just be coincidence that there have been more failure recently.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:18 PM   #7510
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post

I know there are plenty of documented case failures but what are the root causes? I would bet money on the tunes playing a big factor in them. So many potential build issues as well to contribute to the failures and it is easy to point to the case as the problem when the sleeve is cracked or a chunk of it is missing!
I have a 704 purchased new in 2010 I am waiting to finnish building. It has been a concern for me, but im too far down the road to stop now.

My plan is to run it 500 whp daily and see how long it lasts. Hopefully its "all in the tune"
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:21 PM   #7511
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Yes they are all stainless internals. Compatible with all known fuels.
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1300.html
Looks like 4 run around $700?
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:28 PM   #7512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
I think there was one shop that cracked at least two of them right at 550WHP or something. And they had done similar setups on older casting numbers without issue. With things like this it will be very hard to prove anything without a huge dataset. It is obviously going to be a wide distribution. The new ones may very well be slightly weaker, or it could just be coincidence that there have been more failure recently.
Agreed! Something like block reinforcement is good insurance and with more time could prove to be the best alternative for our 2.5's. In spite of what I wrote above, PnL is now running their closed deck block in the drag car and they do the insert machining in house.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:36 PM   #7513
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Originally Posted by slowgenius View Post
Looks like 4 run around $700?
The retail for our cars is $780 with clips and pins or pigtails. Add $48 for PnP adapters. We hardwired the USCAR to the harness which gives a bit more length to the stock harness and eliminates one snap connector vs. the PnP.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:55 PM   #7514
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The retail for our cars is $780 with clips and pins or pigtails. Add $48 for PnP adapters. We hardwired the USCAR to the harness which gives a bit more length to the stock harness and eliminates one snap connector vs. the PnP.
Cool. By the time my car is ready to run, some more time will have past with other setups and feedback. By then I may consider them over my id2000s if my tuner feels they are too big.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:59 PM   #7515
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post

Yeah, you should be good into mid 600's DJ numbers with the 1300's. the drivability is awesome with them. We feel like they are almost better than the 1k's are down low. They felt great on pump gas also, smooth idle! Maybe its the carbon drive shaft but in slow speeds just rolling 4-6 mph they pulled away without any hesitation or stutter! They have all stainless internals so they should hold up well with e85 and the oxygenated fuels.

On another note, I know you said you wanted to keep the power down on the stock sleeves with that 6266.

FYI, I was talking a bunch with Paul Szuba yesterday about motors, reinforcements etc... He told me when they ran the 8.80/ 165 with their drag car it was on the stock case, stock crank, a 4294 and 47 psi of boost revving to 10k! eek!! They never broke that motor and made a bunch of passes on it. When they tore it down it was perfect. No signs of any stress or wear. It kind of proves what a well built, well tuned motor is capable of. I know it's not a dd but that is very impressive!
Ya. That's exactly what I was hoping for. I haven't run out of fuel yet on my setup, but getting close. Just want some more power and a little head room. My block is a 703 and has done well so far. I have tuned the car so that torque comes on nice and smooth. I think it is most of the reason I haven't broken anything on my race gas tune yet.

My opinion is that the tune has a lot to do with cracking sleeves. When you throw a crap load of timing at the engine down low and get a huge spike in torque it's hard on the stock sleeves.

I suppose I just need to crank it up once I get some 1300s and see how far it goes. I wont be driving the car all the time on race gas or anything. Maybe a handful of drag races a year. And the car isn't driven very often.
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:55 PM   #7516
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My 07 trans is basically new. Has like 14k miles on if. I'd try and sell for like 3k and then buy the auto an send to ipt.

Would drop a huge amount off et.
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:56 PM   #7517
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Originally Posted by 05_wRex View Post
Ya. That's exactly what I was hoping for. I haven't run out of fuel yet on my setup, but getting close. Just want some more power and a little head room. My block is a 703 and has done well so far. I have tuned the car so that torque comes on nice and smooth. I think it is most of the reason I haven't broken anything on my race gas tune yet.

My opinion is that the tune has a lot to do with cracking sleeves. When you throw a crap load of timing at the engine down low and get a huge spike in torque it's hard on the stock sleeves.

I suppose I just need to crank it up once I get some 1300s and see how far it goes. I wont be driving the car all the time on race gas or anything. Maybe a handful of drag races a year. And the car isn't driven very often.
We had the base at 50psi base and 28.5 boost and IDC were 80% vs. 55 with the 1k's and at 110% at 27.5 boost, Jr backed it off to 25 for the street tune. You can always crank up your base a bit more as long as you have the pump to lower your idc's.

Yep, it seems like you can keep that same timing strategy and turn up the boost some. Smooth, progressive and full vs spike and fall has to be better for the motor and the use of that power! Junior commented on the graph after the tune and liked how smooth, full and long the ramp was. He also said that he liked the way Dom's 2.5 long rod motors seemed to like to peak torque wise out around 6k. Of course it's his tune and he is so damn good at his trade!
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:23 PM   #7518
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knock.

Knock kills cases, plain and simple. When someone asks me for an engine and they say they want 500whp, the first thing I ask is "What type of fuel?"

Because if they say pump gas, I recommend reinforced or sleeved blocks.
IF they say e85 or race gas, I recommend sticking with stock cases.

Pump gas is much harder on cases because it WILL knock. If you think you have a 100% knock free tune on pump gas, you're kidding yourself. It's a Subaru, at some point, it will knock. Maybe not when it was tuned, maybe not when you're logging, but it will.
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:26 PM   #7519
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This is the E85 thread. No one cares about pump gas here! Haha.
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:28 PM   #7520
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This is the E85 thread. No one cares about pump gas here! Haha.
lol. I hear ya. However, those cracked cases I doubt were on e85 unless they were over-timed.
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:54 PM   #7521
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post

We had the base at 50psi base and 28.5 boost and IDC were 80% vs. 55 with the 1k's and at 110% at 27.5 boost, Jr backed it off to 25 for the street tune. You can always crank up your base a bit more as long as you have the pump to lower your idc's.

Yep, it seems like you can keep that same timing strategy and turn up the boost some. Smooth, progressive and full vs spike and fall has to be better for the motor and the use of that power! Junior commented on the graph after the tune and liked how smooth, full and long the ramp was. He also said that he liked the way Dom's 2.5 long rod motors seemed to like to peak torque wise out around 6k. Of course it's his tune and he is so damn good at his trade!
Ya. Im in the process of adding a flex fuel sensor so I can just pump and go once I change a couple tables on my ems. One day I might get there. Haha.

Do any of you guys that don't have a bunch of e85 pumps near you have a good way to store it in bulk and just pump it in the car in the garage? Im thinking about a 50 gallon setup or so. How long does the stuff stay good like that?

Do you guys run any type of lube in the fuel?
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:20 PM   #7522
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lol. I hear ya. However, those cracked cases I doubt were on e85 unless they were over-timed.
That's a good point. Akuma blew up two of them at sub-400WHP on pump+meth.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:34 PM   #7523
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Ya. Im in the process of adding a flex fuel sensor so I can just pump and go once I change a couple tables on my ems. One day I might get there. Haha.

Do any of you guys that don't have a bunch of e85 pumps near you have a good way to store it in bulk and just pump it in the car in the garage? Im thinking about a 50 gallon setup or so. How long does the stuff stay good like that?

Do you guys run any type of lube in the fuel?

As far as I know, nobody on here runs any type of additive in their Ethanol, and as we have said on here before, while there isn't necessarily anything illegal about storing E85 in large quantities in your garage, I am sure your local Fire Department, Home Owner's Insurance, etc. will probably have an issue with it. Whether or not you tell them about it or are willing to risk storing it is completely up to you.

As for your comment about the flex fuel sensor, MOST the guys that add them are only adding them so they can monitor the ethanol content accurately and easily. Even without a flex fuel sensor, it is only a couple things that need to be changed to switch back and forth...and that is really only the first time you fill up with the fuel. Once you have a map created for that fuel, you never have to change it again. On the rare occasion that I have to switch, it only takes me like 30 seconds to 1 min longer to fill up versus when I am not switching fuels.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:41 PM   #7524
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It is just a convenience thing, but sometimes it takes a while for the E70 (using E70 as the bad gas)to cycle through the system.

Personally I try to take my computer most times when I am driving my car, but in the event I forget ... its nice to know if I get a crap station of E85 and the blend drops to E75, boost target/fueling/WGDC/timing is all dropping accordingly.

The one thing I want to do is get some 100% ethanol and contain that in the sensor and see what it reads. I'm suspicious about the reading I get because I've never seen over 81%E and I know that a few of the stations I've went to have 92%+ E from other members on NASIOC.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:54 PM   #7525
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It is just a convenience thing, but sometimes it takes a while for the E70 (using E70 as the bad gas)to cycle through the system.

Personally I try to take my computer most times when I am driving my car, but in the event I forget ... its nice to know if I get a crap station of E85 and the blend drops to E75, boost target/fueling/WGDC/timing is all dropping accordingly.

The one thing I want to do is get some 100% ethanol and contain that in the sensor and see what it reads. I'm suspicious about the reading I get because I've never seen over 81%E and I know that a few of the stations I've went to have 92%+ E from other members on NASIOC.
We only have E70 in Iowa. They switched to it year round because the stations with blender pumps were complaining about having to re-calibrate the pumps often as the blends changed. The Ethanol companies settled on E70 because it is a better year-round blend for regions that see cold winters. I shared your same concerns as well that E70 wouldn't tune as well as higher blends but that turned out to be false. I have not had to run lower boost or timing on any of the setups I have tuned. EGTs have not been measurably higher either. I just target a lower AFR than I used to for the higher blends. In talking to a couple other local guys running E85 on ~ 1000 hp setups, I have found they discovered the same thing. They didn't need higher blends to make the same power. I'm sure there is a point where a 70% blend hits a limitation but I haven't seen that point found yet.
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