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Old 07-23-2013, 05:11 PM   #7526
05_wRex
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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post

As far as I know, nobody on here runs any type of additive in their Ethanol, and as we have said on here before, while there isn't necessarily anything illegal about storing E85 in large quantities in your garage, I am sure your local Fire Department, Home Owner's Insurance, etc. will probably have an issue with it. Whether or not you tell them about it or are willing to risk storing it is completely up to you.

As for your comment about the flex fuel sensor, MOST the guys that add them are only adding them so they can monitor the ethanol content accurately and easily. Even without a flex fuel sensor, it is only a couple things that need to be changed to switch back and forth...and that is really only the first time you fill up with the fuel. Once you have a map created for that fuel, you never have to change it again. On the rare occasion that I have to switch, it only takes me like 30 seconds to 1 min longer to fill up versus when I am not switching fuels.
So how long is the stuff good for usually if its sitting around? Or is that not really an issue? Lol. I wasn't really thinking about any legal issues. Im ok storing it as far as that goes. I was hoping someone had thought up a nice setup or something instead of a 55 gallon drum and a hand pump. But I suppose that's fine. I was thinking more like the tanks you see on trucks to refuel heavy machinery. I have a truck and could add a cell in the bed. Its at least a 45-50 mile round trip to the closest e85 station from my house. I'd rather not waste all that fuel just yo fill up or inconvenience myself trying to plan trips to the stations. Lol.

Edit: as far as the sensor, I have a vipec and have an overlay table setup for when I make the switch. I know I can just change maps. I have the cruise button setup now to switch maps for me with two tables for fuel and timing. I would just like the simplicity of it. Well, that, and the race gas im using now is $13/gallon. Lol.
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Last edited by 05_wRex; 07-23-2013 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:25 PM   #7527
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We only have E70 in Iowa. They switched to it year round because the stations with blender pumps were complaining about having to re-calibrate the pumps often as the blends changed. The Ethanol companies settled on E70 because it is a better year-round blend for regions that see cold winters. I shared your same concerns as well that E70 wouldn't tune as well as higher blends but that turned out to be false. I have not had to run lower boost or timing on any of the setups I have tuned. EGTs have not been measurably higher either. I just target a lower AFR than I used to for the higher blends. In talking to a couple other local guys running E85 on ~ 1000 hp setups, I have found they discovered the same thing. They didn't need higher blends to make the same power. I'm sure there is a point where a 70% blend hits a limitation but I haven't seen that point found yet.
Hmm. So e70 still has an Octane rating of around 105?
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:04 PM   #7528
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Hmm. So e70 still has an Octane rating of around 105?
That's a highly debatable topic.

Some published papers state that its much lower, say around 96 and that E50 has the same octane rating as E85.

Other sources state that its anywhere between 100 and 111 octane for E70.

I've never been able to find conclusive data that shows what the true octane rating is for different Ethanol blends.
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:19 PM   #7529
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In Chicago E85 which BTW is 90 cents/ gallon higher than in Michigan, they publish it on the pumps as 110 octane. I've never seen a published octane rating on it in Michigan.
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:49 PM   #7530
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It is just a convenience thing, but sometimes it takes a while for the E70 (using E70 as the bad gas)to cycle through the system.

Personally I try to take my computer most times when I am driving my car, but in the event I forget ... its nice to know if I get a crap station of E85 and the blend drops to E75, boost target/fueling/WGDC/timing is all dropping accordingly.

The one thing I want to do is get some 100% ethanol and contain that in the sensor and see what it reads. I'm suspicious about the reading I get because I've never seen over 81%E and I know that a few of the stations I've went to have 92%+ E from other members on NASIOC.

the difference in knock sensitivity between e75 and e85 is pretty small, especially when you consider that the e75 fuel will actually run richer on the e85 map. I personally played around with mixture testing on my bugeye, and I didn't start seeing knock issues until I got to about e60 (nothing was touched in the tune other than some ever so slight injector scaling changes due to things being TOO rich with the e60 vs the e90 we normally run.


I also would be curious to see if there is any kind of % accuracy with the sensors. I think it is a really cool thing that guys have started getting these to work on our cars, and it would be nice geewhiz info to have if there is any fluctuation in the reading.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:10 PM   #7531
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post
In Chicago E85 which BTW is 90 cents/ gallon higher than in Michigan, they publish it on the pumps as 110 octane. I've never seen a published octane rating on it in Michigan.
TC pump says 105. I've never seen it posted as 110 even at the one right by P&L. Wonder if its higher just because everything is more expensive or if our state subsidizes more for the alternative fuel?

That is interesting to know amalgrover that E70 is pretty close to E85.
Does it run a little richer because the gasoline portion is higher giving it more BTUs /unit?
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:41 PM   #7532
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That is interesting to know amalgrover that E70 is pretty close to E85.
Does it run a little richer because the gasoline portion is higher giving it more BTUs /unit?
Yup. Thats why I had to make small adjustments to the scaling once it got to a certain point.
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:58 PM   #7533
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Well my aeromotive stealth fuel pump just quit on me.

Suggestions of what to run next? Car has gtx3076 and will have ID1300's if those are finally on the market.

I was thinking of a Wally 255 in the tank and something else in a surge tank, surge tank has not been made/purchased but that is the likely route.

Thanks gentlemen
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:02 PM   #7534
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Originally Posted by breaksOFTEN View Post
Well my aeromotive stealth fuel pump just quit on me.

Suggestions of what to run next? Car has gtx3076 and will have ID1300's if those are finally on the market.

I was thinking of a Wally 255 in the tank and something else in a surge tank, surge tank has not been made/purchased but that is the likely route.

Thanks gentlemen
What about the Full Blown dual in tank? That or Integrated Engineering dual one.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:43 PM   #7535
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Don't over-complicate it. Walbro 465 rewired.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:48 PM   #7536
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Don't over-complicate it. Walbro 465 rewired.
This is exactly what I will be running.

I have an aero 340 in there now only because I was waiting on a filter sock for the walbro. Do you run the sock? Seems like a small hole. Haha. The aero has a 1/2" inlet on it.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:52 PM   #7537
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Don't over-complicate it. Walbro 465 rewired.
How is the fitment? Gotta do a little cutting, grinding, and bending to fit it in.

On a side note I have to get around in my car still so I tossed in my old walbro 255 and did a couple test pulls put of curiosity to see how much leaner I would be and I'm actually richer. From a ~11.8 to 11 afr. Guess I can turn down the BAP a few volts.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:59 PM   #7538
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If you have a BAP, you probably don't even need to go bigger than your walbro 255. You definitely don't have to mess around with the rewire if you installed a 465 since the BAP basically already does that already.
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:07 PM   #7539
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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
If you have a BAP, you probably don't even need to go bigger than your walbro 255. You definitely don't have to mess around with the rewire if you installed a 465 since the BAP basically already does that already.
You're probably right on not needing to go bigger, I'm on a stock block and only pushing 20lbs... For now

Built motor, surge tank, blah blah blah and all that when I get around to it I'll look back into the walbro 465.

Thank you everyone
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:10 PM   #7540
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Originally Posted by 05_wRex View Post

This is exactly what I will be running.

I have an aero 340 in there now only because I was waiting on a filter sock for the walbro. Do you run the sock? Seems like a small hole. Haha. The aero has a 1/2" inlet on it.
Yes sock
Quote:
Originally Posted by breaksOFTEN View Post

How is the fitment? Gotta do a little cutting, grinding, and bending to fit it in.

On a side note I have to get around in my car still so I tossed in my old walbro 255 and did a couple test pulls put of curiosity to see how much leaner I would be and I'm actually richer. From a ~11.8 to 11 afr. Guess I can turn down the BAP a few volts.
No cutting fits great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
If you have a BAP, you probably don't even need to go bigger than your walbro 255. You definitely don't have to mess around with the rewire if you installed a 465 since the BAP basically already does that already.
^^ he's right your probably good to go with the BAP.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:24 PM   #7541
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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
the difference in knock sensitivity between e75 and e85 is pretty small, especially when you consider that the e75 fuel will actually run richer on the e85 map. I personally played around with mixture testing on my bugeye, and I didn't start seeing knock issues until I got to about e60 (nothing was touched in the tune other than some ever so slight injector scaling changes due to things being TOO rich with the e60 vs the e90 we normally run.


I also would be curious to see if there is any kind of % accuracy with the sensors. I think it is a really cool thing that guys have started getting these to work on our cars, and it would be nice geewhiz info to have if there is any fluctuation in the reading.
That's good news considering my state has apparently lowered the minimum ethanol content to 70%. I would imagine that as long as I tune for e70, I'll be fine. We'll see how it goes in the next couple weeks. lol.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:59 PM   #7542
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Originally Posted by breaksOFTEN View Post

You're probably right on not needing to go bigger, I'm on a stock block and only pushing 20lbs... For now

Built motor, surge tank, blah blah blah and all that when I get around to it I'll look back into the walbro 465.

Thank you everyone
If you stay with the gtx3076 you shouldn't need a surge tank and additional pumps. You could just add the bigger Walbro and keep your BAP and have plenty on the supply side. How old was the pump you burned out? What voltage were you running with it? I ask because if you didn't need the added voltage and flow from the pump it may have contributed to its demise.

If you can match up fuel components and run the lower required voltage and lowest required fuel pressure needed to supply your injectors adequately for your HP needs the better and more dependable everything will work.

Last edited by manitou; 07-24-2013 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:12 PM   #7543
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Originally Posted by Layvon View Post

TC pump says 105. I've never seen it posted as 110 even at the one right by P&L. Wonder if its higher just because everything is more expensive or if our state subsidizes more for the alternative fuel?

That is interesting to know amalgrover that E70 is pretty close to E85.
Does it run a little richer because the gasoline portion is higher giving it more BTUs /unit?
Yeah Levon, I filled up at that BP near PnL and the pump said 110 (this surprised me) and 3.99.9/ gal. Yikes! And come to think of it I have seen 105 on MI pumps now that you say it but its not always published on the pumps.

It's good to know what amalgrover stated that E85 and E75/ E70 are not that different from an anti detonation standpoint. Thanks Josh! Running a bit richer is better than too lean. I know some tuners that were resistant to tuning to E85 because of the inconsistencies. Hopefully one day soon we'll all have ethanol sensors and be running true flex fuel tunes!
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:25 PM   #7544
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post
If you stay with the gtx3076 you shouldn't need a surge tank
You dont ever NEED a surge tank for fueling needs....a surge tank has nothing to do with providing extra fuel.

A surge tank is to prevent leaning out due to fuel sloshing away from the fuel pump.

Anyone that races at all, especially anything with turns, should have a surge tank.

This is especially true for 02-05 wrx's that done have any sort of surge box around the filter sock. Any turn below 1/4 tank is pretty much guaranteed to lean out.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:58 PM   #7545
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post
If you stay with the gtx3076 you shouldn't need a surge tank and additional pumps. You could just add the bigger Walbro and keep your BAP and have plenty on the supply side. How old was the pump you burned out? What voltage were you running with it? I ask because if you didn't need the added voltage and flow from the pump it may have contributed to its demise.

If you can match up fuel components and run the lower required voltage and lowest required fuel pressure needed to supply your injectors adequately for your HP needs the better and more dependable everything will work.
Fuel pump was at 14V off boost, and 17V in boost. It was a little much but I wanted to keep my IDC below 90%, and I think the pump was about 2 years old. The car sat with E85 in the tank for 3 months on two separate occasions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
You dont ever NEED a surge tank for fueling needs....a surge tank has nothing to do with providing extra fuel.

A surge tank is to prevent leaning out due to fuel sloshing away from the fuel pump.

Anyone that races at all, especially anything with turns, should have a surge tank.

This is especially true for 02-05 wrx's that done have any sort of surge box around the filter sock. Any turn below 1/4 tank is pretty much guaranteed to lean out.
I need the surge tank for fueling issues when on the track, I was getting some really bad pick-up problems with anything below 3/4 of a tank.

So surge tank will fix pick-up issues, and bigger pump in the surge tank will take care of any additional fueling needs I'll have in the future.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:01 PM   #7546
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That's good news considering my state has apparently lowered the minimum ethanol content to 70%. I would imagine that as long as I tune for e70, I'll be fine. We'll see how it goes in the next couple weeks. lol.
you would want to tune for higher content rather than lower content...or at least if you tune with the lower content fuel, keep things richer so it has some head room for higher content fuel.
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Old 07-25-2013, 12:10 AM   #7547
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you would want to tune for higher content rather than lower content...or at least if you tune with the lower content fuel, keep things richer so it has some head room for higher content fuel.
Gotcha. I usually have the laptop in the car anyways so I can keep an eye on air/fuel.
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:03 AM   #7548
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Are you logging the ecu for afr? If so, that isn't accurate in WOT.
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:23 AM   #7549
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Are you logging the ecu for afr? If so, that isn't accurate in WOT.
It's a vipec v88 and an aem uego wideband in the downpipe. The factory front sensor is affected by exhaust back pressure. I'm new to e85, but not to the rest of it. My questions probably sound like I'm clueless, but I just want to have as much knowledge as I can when I start tuning it. I have already tuned my car on pump gas and race gas. I'm assuming that its going to be fairly close to the race gas tune as far as timing goes. Fuel requirements, of course, will go up. Along with my start up tables and a couple overlay/4d tables for flex fuel.

I haven't read all 7500+ posts in this thread yet, but I will go back over everything while I wait on parts to complete my flex fuel setup.
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Old 07-25-2013, 08:39 AM   #7550
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Sorry I forgot you said that you had a Vipec instead of the factory ecu.
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