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Old 02-26-2011, 05:45 PM   #2301
Maxwell Power
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What you are missing is this:
Each type of fuel only has so many molecules available for combustion per unit of mass.
e85 has about 30% less than gasoline. This is why you have to run 30% more e85 than gasoline.

AFR is Air to Fuel Ratio. It's FUEL not gasoline. It's not AGR.

For a certain FUEL the ratio changes based on the amount of molecules available for combustion per unit of MASS.
So it's MASS of air to MASS of fuel. Since e85 requires more MASS to reach stoich, the AFR is lower.

I don't know how else to describe it to you guys.

This is how it is.

The LC1 has options for alcohol, gasoline, methanol etc. The sensor reads lambda and then displays a ratio based on the fuel you selected.

If your WBO2 reads 14.7 at cruise and you're running e85, then it's YOUR FAULT because you put the wrong fuel type in there.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:46 PM   #2302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDagen View Post
I'm goin to agree to disagree with you. I want to hear some others thoughts on the subject. Btw I know that widebands use lambda to calculate afr I didn't just fall off the wagon
well if that's what you want to do. that's fine

I'm not telling you something that isn't true. Some day you'll just have to understand that you are currently incorrect. These aren't "thoughts" these are FACTS that I'm telling you here.

Please read up on AFR. Understand that it's about mass.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:47 PM   #2303
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no what Dom is saying the sensor reads lambda but what that lambda # represents depends on what fuel the WB unit is set up for --gas,ethanol,methanol.We have all just are now used to translating gas afr's to what they represent running e85.Even though your WB says 14.7 that is a gasoline calibration but if you switched the cal. to ethanol it would read 10:1 but still have the same lambda value regardless of fuel type.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:50 PM   #2304
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That is one calculation for lambda using AFR. As you can see the stoichiometric AFR will vary based on fuel type which then will vary the lambda.

The proper equation is the sensor input of Lambda X AFRstoich= AFR current. For Gasoline it would 1x14.7= 14.7. for e85 1x 10:1= 10.1

If you are running richer for power like most fuels (.78 to .8 Lambda) you'd get .8x 14.7 = 11.76 for gasoline.
For e85 you'd have .8 x 10:1= 8:1.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:51 PM   #2305
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Phatron where you at , I wanna hear what some fellow tuners think of my theory...if the lambda is .80 it's 11.75afr, not 8.Xx afr. It's because the wideband is in the exhaust it doesn't lie...if you put you wideband on an E85 mode its just doing a add 30% calculation. It's still reading .80 Lambda in the exhaust but it will add 30% and read .55 lambda because of the E85 mode calculation.

Let's get some more tuners in the house to comment...
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:51 PM   #2306
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sorry I typed my response slower than Doms but he is totally right in what he is saying its not his opinion it is scientific fact.tdagen you need to go back and read in the early pages of the e85 manual,if you take your lambda# and multiply it by 1.47 you end up with your gas calibration #---.80 x 1.47 = 11.76.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:59 PM   #2307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDagen View Post
Phatron where you at , I wanna hear what some fellow tuners think of my theory...if the lambda is .80 it's 11.75afr, not 8.Xx afr. It's because the wideband is in the exhaust it doesn't lie...if you put you wideband on an E85 mode its just doing a add 30% calculation. It's still reading .80 Lambda in the exhaust but it will add 30% and read .55 lambda because of the E85 mode calculation.

Let's get some more tuners in the house to comment...
no if you switch your wb to read for e85 then at cruise it will say 10:1 on your readout whereas if you had it set for gasoline it would say 14.7.That means at wot it would disply 8:1 where for gasoline it would say 11:1.The calibration is all in how it displays in regard to lambda for that specific fuel.I hope this helps I can't make it any easier to understand.
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Old 02-26-2011, 06:34 PM   #2308
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*head assplode*

What widebands are you guys runing for the E85 ?
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Old 02-26-2011, 06:47 PM   #2309
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sooo.. u can just leave the wideband to read gasoline and just know that its actually a different number
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Old 02-26-2011, 06:56 PM   #2310
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SORTED BY POWER

Code:
 POWER              /     NAME    /     Subaru Type   /Engine-Turbo Setup     / ET   1/8 &   1/4 mile    /  INJECTOR SIZE + IDC/ ELEVATION 

1. 752whp 605wtq        /bertune          /04 WRX STI  / EJ257 + P6765 / 10.1@143 with 631whp 463wtq        /1600 cc maxed            /0 ft
2. 586whp ???wtq        /billionaire7     /06 WRX STI  / EJ257 + GT4088 1.08 AR /                           /1600 cc               /5300 ft
3. 577whp 461wtq       /crystal_imprezav /05 STi/ EJ257 + HTA3586 .82 AR        / 10.5@135              /1680cc Maxed Out    /1600 ft
4. 551whp 485wtq         /jasv11           /95 Impreza   / EJ257 + 6262 .82 AR      /9.9 at 141 MPH/ID2000's                            /700 ft
5. 550whp 480wtq          / Scuba Steve   /04 WRX STI  / EJ257 + 35R .82AR" /                               /1680 cc + 88%         /6200 ft
6. 546whp 440wtq         / 06rexwagon     /06 WRX wagon/ EJ255 + Dom4       /       11.69@122mph            /960 cc + 95%          /5400 ft
7. 527whp 487wtq        /   cnstman       /04 WRX STI  / EJ257 + 35R .82 AR"  /6.89@104mph 10.74@126.2mph   /1100 cc + 95%         /6200 ft
8. 508whp 495wtq         / swiftwrx1      /06 WRX STI  / EJ257 + gt65       /                               /1100 cc + 85%            /0 ft
9. 460whp 452wtq         /mick_the_ginge  /03 WRX wagon/ EJ257 + 35R .82 AR                                 /1100cc + 75%           /600 ft 
10. 440whp 339wtq        /rexblake         /02 WRX      / EJ207sb ej205 heads+ dom 3.0xt-r                   /1000cc at 90%          /5000ft
11. 430whp 430wtq         /reddevil        /90 Legacy wagon/ej25 +ebay T3/T4     /12.55 @ 117.69             /850cc
12. 425whp 420wtq @20psi DD/adamlavender   /02 WRX Sedan/EJ257 Hybrid 3076R .82                              /1100cc + 65%          /6500ft
13. 423whp 430wtq           / ewinters    / 07 STI     / EJ257 + ATP3071R                                   /1100cc + 85%           /900 ft  
14. 409whp 394wtq          /pignoseSTI    /06 WRX STI  / EJ257 + 3076R .63 AR  /                            /1200cc +               /120 ft
15. 370whp 340wtq    /BenGSX (aka Bouncer)/05 WRX Wagon/ EJ205 + FP 68HTA        / 11.98@119.08             /850cc + MAXED          /100 ft
16. 364whp 369wtq         /thorne         /03 WRX      / EJ205+ej22e + 18g   / 7.962@88.40 12.361@112.23    /823cc + 92%           / 
17. 363whp 460wtq          /ChandlerWRX06 /06 WRX      / EJ255 + VF39     /8.69@83.27mph 13.29@112.83mph    /850cc + 75%           /1100 ft
18. 360whp 382wtq            /AWD_Ball     /07 WRX      / EJ255 + VF39 /                                      /750cc + 85% IDC      /400 ft
19. 358whp 405wtq          /Infamous1     /06 Legacy   / EJ255 + VF39 /           12.891@108.30mph          /816cc + 84%           /1000 ft
20. 354whp 373wtq          /Kastley85891  /08 WRX STI  / EJ257 + Tdo5 20g 8cm                               /850cc + 97%            /500 ft
21. 352whp 434wtq          /Importfanatic17/05 WRX STi /EJ257 + VF39         /12.00@118.44                 /850cc + 80%
22. 351whp 328wtq          / JSarv        /02 WRX      / EJ20 + Td05 18g   /                                /1000cc + 75-80%        /500 ft
23. 343whp 350wtq          / rubinm      /05 STi        / EJ257 + HTA68 /                                    / 740cc + 80% IDC      /6500 ft
24. 341whp 379wtq          /tazswing      /09 OXT      / EJ255 + HTA68/                                     /850cc +  95%           /800 ft
25. 341whp 315wtq      /neversummer489    /02 WRX      / EJ20 + HTA68/                                      /820cc +  ??          /
26. 340whp 360wtq          /samoya22      /10 STi      /EJ257+ FP Green HTA                                 /750cc + max           /830 ft
27. 338whp 398wtq          /putz          /06 WRX TR   / EJ255 + Td06h 20g                                  /1150cc +  ??          /1030 ft
29. 334whp 318wtq         /chargerbry     /04 WRX      / EJ20  + EVO3 16g/             12.7@110             /850cc +  88%           /500 ft 
29. 333whp 335wtq         /thorne         /03 WRX       / EJ20  + VF39/      7.962@88.40 12.361@112.23      /823cc +  80%    /  
30. 332 whp 352 wtq       /06-wrx-tr      /06 wrx sedan /ej255+68hta /                              /       /750cc + 85%           /4500ft
31. 331whp 381wtq       /modliving        /08 FORESTER FX/EJ255 + VF48                                      /850cc +  ??    /       
32. 328whp 369wtq       / juanmedina      /07 WRX TR   / EJ255 + VF39    /     12.142@115.5mph              /860cc +  80.83        /1048 ft
33. 326whp 408wtq      /  roninsoldier83  /06 WRX STI  / EJ257 + VF39  /                                    /811cc + 75%           /6000 ft
34. 325whp 360wtq         /TDagen         /02 WRX      / EJ257 + Tdo5 18g                                   /740cc + 95%    / 
35. 312whp 359wtq      /   Silverstg2     /02 WRX      / EJ257 + VF39  /                                    /765cc + 85%           /1200 ft
36. 285whp           /Guy on the corner   /05 LGT /    / EJ255 + VF52   /            12.96@107mph           /930cc +  75%          /5800 ft
37. 280whp 270wtq    /      thefoos       /02 WRX      / EJ20 + VF43  /              13.1@105PH             /825cc + 83%            /700 ft
38. 268whp 268wtq    /      Adamlavender  /02 WRX      / EJ20 + VF39  /                                     /820cc                 /6500 ft
39. 265whp 247wtq    /      rexblake      /02 WRX      / EJ20 + 16g  /                                      /750cc                 /1200 ft
40. 150whp 150wtq         / HamFist       /2.5 RS      / none :lol:  /                                      /280cc + %             /5280 ft
Click on the name for a video and time for slip
If you want to add me to this list that would be cool.
547whp / 471wtq on Cobb's MD in Portland OR. 2000cc ID injectors. One Walbro 255 pump and two Bosch 044's in the trunk with a mounted surge tank. Duty cycle I believe is at 72% at 27psi.
e85 is amazing!
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:00 PM   #2311
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just normal WB's,I run 2 the one tied into my hydra and a turboxs tuner pro with a dashmounted digital readout.Both of them can be configured for whatever fuel you want them to read for but I leave both of mine for gasoline since I know what the afr reading for e85 at that setting will be.example like what Dom and I posted above.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:09 PM   #2312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
What you are missing is this:
Each type of fuel only has so many molecules available for combustion per unit of mass.
e85 has about 30% less than gasoline. This is why you have to run 30% more e85 than gasoline.

AFR is Air to Fuel Ratio. It's FUEL not gasoline. It's not AGR.

For a certain FUEL the ratio changes based on the amount of molecules available for combustion per unit of MASS.
So it's MASS of air to MASS of fuel. Since e85 requires more MASS to reach stoich, the AFR is lower.

I don't know how else to describe it to you guys.

This is how it is.

The LC1 has options for alcohol, gasoline, methanol etc. The sensor reads lambda and then displays a ratio based on the fuel you selected.

If your WBO2 reads 14.7 at cruise and you're running e85, then it's YOUR FAULT because you put the wrong fuel type in there.
Listen I'm not trying to get you to describe anything to me . I tune my own car and make lots of power. I'm doing something right. My aem uego doesn't even have E85 mode , I picked it up years ago. I think you are over complicating things. Your not listenig to me, since E85 takes more mass to reach stoih the afr is lower? That only makes sense if your using 2 fuels on the same tune. Are you targeting 10.0 afr cruise on the Subaru roms? Are you targeting 8 afr at wot on the Subaru roms you tune?

The way I was taught to tune subarus fueling on E85 was to change the injector scaler to 28% lower than actual. An example would be this if you have 1000cc injectors in the car change the scaler in the rom to 720cc. This is a global change meaning- that at all timeS your injectors are going to be spraying 28% more fuel. It's pretty simple the ecu thinks it only has 720cc injectors so it ends up spraying 28% more than it's trying to... Cruise , wot , idle - they all get exactly 28% more fuel per combustion event.

"Each type of fuel only has so many molecules available for combustion per unit of mass.
e85 has about 30% less than gasoline. This is why you have to run 30% more e85 than gasoline."

"For a certain FUEL the ratio changes based on the amount of molecules available for combustion per unit of MASS.
So it's MASS of air to MASS of fuel. Since e85 requires more MASS to reach stoich, the AFR is lower."
Maxwell all you just said above is E85 takes more fuel per combustion event to reach stoich. Stoich doesn't change it's still 1.0 lambda . Lambda doesn't change... Afr is calculated using lambda so afr doesn't change either.

See with other vehicles called flex fuel vehicles , they run 2 different kinds of fuels, the amounts of fuel needed for combustion with the different fuels/blends is different and needs to be taken into account via afr. With our subarus the extra 30% fuel is already taken care of with the injector scaler change in the rom. We don't run 2 types of fuel just one, so we can just change the injector scaler. No need to do extra work changing all the target afrs in the rom, and if you do go that route you would most likely have the car running like **** every once in awhile when those undefined fueling parameters come into play on the stock ecu...I have some buddies who reverse engineered the subaru ecu's and there are undefined tables all over those roms, and plenty of them have to do with fueling-quick FYI.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:19 PM   #2313
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yes everybody pretty much knows how to tune a stock ecu for e85(well I hope so)and the stock ecu reads in gasoline but since we know what afr's in gasoline mode to run for e85 no problems.But back to the point at hand what Dom and I posted is fact no matter what you think.And the reason it takes more mass is because of the higher oxygen content of ethanol.And you are back to lambda again,lambda is stoich but when converted to an afr reading(non lambda) different fuels have different values eg.e85 lambda 1.0 = 10:1 on a wb configured for e85,whereas lambda 1.0 for gasoline is 14.7 on a WB configured for gasoline.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:23 PM   #2314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
no if you switch your wb to read for e85 then at cruise it will say 10:1 on your readout whereas if you had it set for gasoline it would say 14.7.That means at wot it would disply 8:1 where for gasoline it would say 11:1.The calibration is all in how it displays in regard to lambda for that specific fuel.I hope this helps I can't make it any easier to understand.

Lambda doesn't change , these new widebands have calculations on them so if you turn it to E85 mode it will read lambda multiplied by .70 to make it appear 30% richer. In all actuallity the lambda is still the same it's just a calculation. A calculation we don't need if our subarus are tuned with the injector scaler change...

Anyone following me yet!?

These different afr scales are for vehicles that are tuned to 10.0 afr on there rom in order to get the extra 30% fuel. We use the injector scaler to get our extra 30% of fuel... So any vehicle tuned to run E85 by changing the injector scaler for a global increase in fueling has no need whatsoever for the "E85 afr wideband calculations".
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:26 PM   #2315
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Also when it comes to flex fuel vehicles the main difference is in the ecu it has a wider capability of stt and ltt correction,like on a suby it can +/- up to 15% whereas a flexfuel vehicle can adjust more than 30% +/- and has sensors in the fuel system to pick up the difference in fuels.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:31 PM   #2316
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dude ypu are making this way too complicated I understand lambda is lambda but lambda for gasoline is different in fuel mass then lambda for e85 thats what we are trying to say.And yes you are right in just making the changes in the injector scaler.
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:34 PM   #2317
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lambda = afr/stoich afr.....for e85 its 8/10 = 0.8

everything dom said is correct......if u change an lc-1 to ethanol it will read 10 at cruise and 8 at wot.....it wont read 14.7 at cruise with the ethanol calibration.
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:06 PM   #2318
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Originally Posted by john 1badSTI View Post
dude ypu are making this way too complicated I understand lambda is lambda but lambda for gasoline is different in fuel mass then lambda for e85 thats what we are trying to say.And yes you are right in just making the changes in the injector scaler.
You guys are adding calculations into the mix, but I'm making it complicated? That makes no sense...John what you just said is E85 takes 30% more mass per combustion event vs gasoline to hit 1.00 lambda aka 14.7 afr, it's still hitting 1.00 lambda or 14.7 gasoline afr it's just using 30% more fuel to get there. Example of this is would be; gasoline uses 1 ounce of fuel to hit 1.00 lambda aka 14.7 afr, it would take E85 1.3 ounces to hit 1.00 lambda aka 14.7 gasoline afr. I'm not dumb, I know this, friend. Adding all that gasoline afr, E85 afr calculating makes it complicated and intimidating for beginers with E85, of course maybe that's what you tuners are shooting for?

ATTENTION
Widebands read correctly using lambda for E85 . Anyone running E85 I recomend using lambda for units on your widebands and targeting .80 - .78 (aka 11.5 - 11.75 gasoline afr) at wide open throttle. Target 1.00 lambda (aka 14.7 gasoline afr) for idling-cruising conditions . That's the bottom line! No need to calculate Afr into E85 units...
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:10 PM   #2319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
lambda = afr/stoich afr.....for e85 its 8/10 = 0.8

everything dom said is correct......if u change an lc-1 to ethanol it will read 10 at cruise and 8 at wot.....it wont read 14.7 at cruise with the ethanol calibration.
Phatron all I'm saying is there is no need to switch it over to E85 calibration. Widebands read fine using regular old lambda. I know how the E85 wideband calibration works. Are my post too long for anyone to care about?
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:11 PM   #2320
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Geez, you guys are arguing over something that is just to simple to be arguing over. Both Dom and Tdagen are correct other than both of them missing each others point. I will add to this argument though. The afr is totally meaningless unless you have the wideband calibrated for the correct fuel. Its all just lambda anyway no matter what fuel you are running.
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:22 PM   #2321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
Geez, you guys are arguing over something that is just to simple to be arguing over. Both Dom and Tdagen are correct other than both of them missing each others point. I will add to this argument though. The afr is totally meaningless unless you have the wideband calibrated for the correct fuel. Its all just lambda anyway no matter what fuel you are running.
Yes very true! And just to clarify, I know what Dom is sayin is proven fact, but I'm saying it should be like this, basically I think that systemis flawed and complicated. That's why I just run lambda on my wideband...
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:29 PM   #2322
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I understand your point TD and it makes sense but most people are not experienced enough with lambda #'s so afr #'s are the ones they relate more to especially the new guys to tuning.I really wasn't saying you were actually wrong.
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:55 PM   #2323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDagen

Phatron all I'm saying is there is no need to switch it over to E85 calibration. Widebands read fine using regular old lambda.
I agree. I've never switched it over to lambda or e85....I just leave em gasoline....
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:06 PM   #2324
Nuke209
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Originally Posted by TDagen View Post

ATTENTION
Widebands read correctly using lambda for E85 . Anyone running E85 I recomend using lambda for units on your widebands and targeting .80 - .78 (aka 11.5 - 11.75 gasoline afr) at wide open throttle. Target 1.00 lambda (aka 14.7 gasoline afr) for idling-cruising conditions . That's the bottom line! No need to calculate Afr into E85 units...
+1

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Old 02-27-2011, 12:39 AM   #2325
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it read the same for me. i never switched anything in my innovate and rocked the logs watching for 11.1 @ WOT and 14.1 @ cruise.
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