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Old 04-02-2009, 12:26 PM   #1
HamFist
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Default How to define success with Subarus...with explosions!

I had a thought recently about all these different projects I've been building and tuning on for a while. The power results are modest and I'm not breaking any records. However, there is ONE thing that stands out---my stuff runs and doesn't break. Repeatedly. Day and Night. Without any hiccups, problems, explosions, or otherwise I have little to no problems from my machinery. Is bragging about expensive explosions bragging? Is bragging about things that exploded repeatedly really bragging? If that pile of puked parts made 500hp twice, or even a few times...I really don't think that counts. Yeah, that's a slow N/A guy telling you that .

This got me thinking about "Proven Power Bragging" for some reason. I really don't think making 500hp TWICE is bragging about anything other than the fact that you can blow stuff up. Building another one that does the same thing does not make you successful.

Where is the consistency with Subarus? I don't think anyone can really claim any success until you improve upon the factory design. Instead of repeatedly blowing them up and claiming high numbers, who's had the highest number consistently with the same motor? For that matter, who's gone the longest in between rebuilds?

I say all of this because I've noticed one big difference with "powerful Subarus"...ones built AND TUNED to last actually do for quite some time. Therefore, I think it's more important to tune to finish rather than trying to tune to "beat everyone on the dyno."

Thoughts?
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Old 04-02-2009, 12:34 PM   #2
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100 % agreed! Although I have had my share of failures just trying to get to that satisfying place and I am almost there but I have had a few "booms" along the way. I never tried to be a Dyno Queen as I like a nice tune and build that I can beat on daily and it keeps going.
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Old 04-02-2009, 12:36 PM   #3
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Thank you! If someone wants to build a dyno queen that's their business. However, when said dyno queen pukes coolant, parts, oil, or all three---I don't care what you did on the dyno your car still sucks and so does your tuning .
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Old 04-02-2009, 12:41 PM   #4
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Almost 40,000 miles of Daily Driven, Road Course, Drag Racing, Time Attack, Auto-X, 28+psi on pump gas mishaps, low oil pressure and just general abuse on my built engine making over 400whp and at times over 500whp.

SO yeah, hows that?
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Old 04-02-2009, 12:46 PM   #5
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Almost 40,000 miles of Daily Driven, Road Course, Drag Racing, Time Attack, Auto-X, 28+psi on pump gas mishaps, low oil pressure and just general abuse on my built engine making over 400whp and at times over 500whp.

SO yeah, hows that?
THAT is success! Running 10 laps, blowing up, and then coming back the next week to do the same thing is failure . Doing that repeatedly is downright lunacy. How the hell do you people part with your hard earned money thinking explosions are somehow the Subaru standard? It's an insult to the rest of us.

Did Subaru have repeated engine failures in rally? No.
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:01 PM   #6
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funny because i was talkin with my friend last nite who competes in redline time attack and said TONS of people were having issues with their cars at the event last weekend. even the crawford car had motor issues and was towed back the shop where it was rebuilt and came out next day. does that make them any less of a company/race team?
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:03 PM   #7
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In rally? Hell yes they do blow! The rally cars do not run knock sensors.

I have 12k miles on my drop in piston motor (almost a year now). Averaging around 350-400 WHP. I beat the hell out of it.

But yeah, who cares if you can eek 20 more whp on the edge of breaking vs making it reliable? It is all in the tune.
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:25 PM   #8
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You need failures to identify the weak points, then you re-build for better reliability.

Major Failure: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1244905
Rebuild for better reliability: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1272571
Refresh rebuild to quantify reliability and improve it: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1651984
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:34 PM   #9
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sorry dude big difference between a stock NA engine and even a stock turbo engine

how many stock 2.5 NA engines pop? probably a handful per region due to poor owner maint and/or assembly line mistake. then compare to stock turbo engines, there are many.

a turbo engine has much more cyl pressure and EGTs than a low power NA subaru engine
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:36 PM   #10
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in fact look at any modded vs stock lower rated counterpart. diesel trucks, EVOs, mustangs, etc. anything pushed harder is going to have a higher failure rate, if it could reliably make double or more the stock HP then the manufacturer would do it. think if you could advertise a 450 hp 4 cyl that still got in the high 20 mpg. who wouldn't buy it?
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Old 04-02-2009, 02:23 PM   #11
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There's a difference in philosophy here.

You can't judge the guy who's tuned his car on pump/race, getting to the track, beating it around town, alternating fuels, compared to the next guy who is strictly tuned with a mild turbo set-up on pump gas only.


Many people fall into the category and get too involved in making power at whatever cost, whatever part (expensive or knock-off).

It's not easy to find people modding any type of turbo car and keeping it mild. It's almost blasphemy.


Personally I've had a few different set-ups all on sti's from stock turbo, stage 2, stage 2+, 20g, fpred, etc.

All in all the most enjoyable to drive and most easily maintained were the stage 2 and stage2+ set-ups.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:14 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by AWDWRXLOVER View Post
funny because i was talkin with my friend last nite who competes in redline time attack and said TONS of people were having issues with their cars at the event last weekend. even the crawford car had motor issues and was towed back the shop where it was rebuilt and came out next day. does that make them any less of a company/race team?
Not sure where you got your miss- information fromů Our motor ran flawlessly all weekend and we will run the same motor at the next event as well.

There were plenty of motor failures at the event though.

I think you are mistaking us with JC's car

Team Crawford
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:38 PM   #13
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lol ^ my friend mis informed then.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:44 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Crawford Performance View Post
Not sure where you got your miss- information fromů Our motor ran flawlessly all weekend and we will run the same motor at the next event as well.

There were plenty of motor failures at the event though.

I think you are mistaking us with JC's car

Team Crawford

haha so defensive...
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:54 PM   #15
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I think reliability is one of those 'eye of the beholder' kinda things. There is a limit to how much a motor can take. If you're making 500hp and beat on your car constantly, it's just a matter of time before something lets go. If you're tuning on the edge, trying to get the most out of everything, it's not going to last forever. If you're looking to build a reliable car, stay stage 2. After that it's all downhill, no matter who tunes it.

If my motor sees 1000 miles I'll be ecstatic. If it lasts a year I'll be thrilled.
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Old 04-02-2009, 03:59 PM   #16
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.....

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Old 04-02-2009, 04:01 PM   #17
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I agree with the OP 100%!!

I have put a lot of money into my car over the last 4 years and I have to say there have been many highs and lows with power/expectations/driveability.

I am can speak from experience, that the right tuner and shop building your motor/installing your setup is crucial to a long lasting and well running motor. I had my motor built and installed by a fantastic group of builders in NY called Hudson Historics and was tuned by a Dave Brown of MSPT out Long Island, NY.

My chasis/frame and all parts other than the motor/tranny and coilovers have 116K on them. I have since put on my built motor almost 13K miles. I am currently making 430whp and 360trq. I drive the car everyday 72 miles roundtrip for work and LOVE it. I average about 280-300 miles on a full tank of gas with about 70% of my driving being highway and with the occasional spirited driving session on my way home from work.

Knowing that having the right builders/tuners and the right combination of parts and not cheaping out or cutting corners would return this result has me ecstatic!! And to know that there is another 100-130whp still to make with my current setup has me wanting more!

So again, I agree 100% with the idea of making consistent power rather then saying their car makes 500whp, but can only do it a half dozen times before breaking.

-Cramer
You've spent all that money and know you're leaving 130hp on the table? I don't know that I'd be okay with that.
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:05 PM   #18
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:28 PM   #19
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I drove 3hrs+ to get tuned, made 600+ on the dyno, 3hrs+ home, 3.5hrs the next day to the dragstrip, ran a 10 second pass, 2hr drive thru jersey traffic on the racegas map, and a 3hr+ drive back home afterwards. Reliable or not, I think that's an accomplishment in itself. I got 5k miles on my motor so far and if it stays together for the summer I will be doing better than my previous builds/tunes.
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Old 04-02-2009, 04:35 PM   #20
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I've had my 2.2L EJ205 from ESX/TRP since 2003.

Its seen a 60 lb/min turbo + NOS back to td04, 16g, gt12, and now HTA Green + meth at 28psi.

Compression was 135-140 all around on a cold motor 3 months ago.

not bad....
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Old 04-02-2009, 05:13 PM   #21
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Jay and Phatron have the right ideas. I'm talking brutal, unforgiving, sadistic punishment in addition to daily driving. My little RS has done pizza delivery for 50k on E85 getting the piss flogged out of it. (In 3 weeks, I'll have that college diploma to show for it .) All day every day, it sees redline multiple times. It stops and starts, idles, runs forever @ 4500rpm...it just keeps going. This isn't a high powered car, either. Quick, but not insane or stupid. When I see a high powered car get flogged sadistically and it hasn't been rebuilt in a few years of hard drving--THAT is a good car, good tune, and good driver.

Crawford, your stuff still explodes. Did Subifest slip your mind that quick? How many motors is this since the three at Subiefest, anyway? The rate of explosions or how long you avoid them is what I think makes a good tuner. If you rung the piss out of a true 700hp car, then I'd expect that to explode or need rebuilds every race. The longer a motor like that goes in between rebuilds is what I find truely more impressive than any dyno number.

When I see far lower powered machinery repeatedly explode due to the same mistakes, that's what I'm pointing out is kind of ridiculous . Every looney project I've ever dreamed up has been successfully run, tuned, and driven for an extended period on my same stock RS. Blowers, E85, numerous N/A combinations..everything BUT boost, basically. It survived all of it. How come some of you kill things that are only marginally more powerful than my car just as quick as Crawford wringing his stuff to hell?

If you pay someone else to build your stuff and then blow it up...you still didn't accomplish anything nor did you make 500hp. Your tuner made the power and the customer disemboweled it. I admire good tuners with reliable results and customers who help keep the car alive rather than killing it.

Last edited by HamFist; 04-02-2009 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 04-02-2009, 05:41 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamFist View Post
Jay and Phatron have the right ideas. I'm talking brutal, unforgiving, sadistic punishment in addition to daily driving.
I understand where you're coming from.....but there are just way too many factors in the world to really tell why peoples motors blow.

One of the things i find quite interesting in my own car is that the highest sustained EGT's and coolant temps it sees is when im driving back home to Ridgecrest from LA. Going up the hills just jacks up the coolant temp and egts.

My point from that is that someone who's daily commute involves hills, stop n go traffic, etc can ultimately have more "abuse" than my cars with close to 1000 4th gear WOT pulls just for logging.

I mean when i got out and do 20 4th gear WOT pulls in a night over a 4 hour period and my coolant temps never get above 180* and my EGT's never go over 1600* compared to when Im on the 15 coming back from LA and my cooolant temp is pegged at 210* and my EGT's are pegged at 1500-1550.....which is worse? I dont know.
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Old 04-02-2009, 05:42 PM   #23
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This topic has a mild relation to my entire mentality envolving how I've built and tuned my car. I honestly don't know what the car makes on the dyno, and really don't care, but my goal for the most part has been to have the car running in the 11s on pump gas only, no meth or race gas, and on the tune that the car sees everyday. Basically race it how it gets driven daily. I'd imagine my car makes in the 380-400whp range on pump gas, 23psi. I can't say I beat on it everyday, getting too old for that, but like I said, no changes are made from daily use to track use...well, minus removing my girls car seats.

Good topic, I hope it doesn't get locked!

Trey
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Old 04-02-2009, 05:44 PM   #24
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haha so defensive...

Idk why you thought they were all defensive about that? Maybe we read it differently, but the "" gave me the image that they weren't offended by the comment made. All he did was correct a wrong statement, no harm done...
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Old 04-02-2009, 10:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamFist View Post
Jay and Phatron have the right ideas. I'm talking brutal, unforgiving, sadistic punishment in addition to daily driving. My little RS has done pizza delivery for 50k on E85 getting the piss flogged out of it. (In 3 weeks, I'll have that college diploma to show for it .) All day every day, it sees redline multiple times. It stops and starts, idles, runs forever @ 4500rpm...it just keeps going. This isn't a high powered car, either. Quick, but not insane or stupid. When I see a high powered car get flogged sadistically and it hasn't been rebuilt in a few years of hard drving--THAT is a good car, good tune, and good driver.

Crawford, your stuff still explodes. Did Subifest slip your mind that quick? How many motors is this since the three at Subiefest, anyway? The rate of explosions or how long you avoid them is what I think makes a good tuner. If you rung the piss out of a true 700hp car, then I'd expect that to explode or need rebuilds every race. The longer a motor like that goes in between rebuilds is what I find truely more impressive than any dyno number.

When I see far lower powered machinery repeatedly explode due to the same mistakes, that's what I'm pointing out is kind of ridiculous . Every looney project I've ever dreamed up has been successfully run, tuned, and driven for an extended period on my same stock RS. Blowers, E85, numerous N/A combinations..everything BUT boost, basically. It survived all of it. How come some of you kill things that are only marginally more powerful than my car just as quick as Crawford wringing his stuff to hell?

If you pay someone else to build your stuff and then blow it up...you still didn't accomplish anything nor did you make 500hp. Your tuner made the power and the customer disemboweled it. I admire good tuners with reliable results and customers who help keep the car alive rather than killing it.

I see where you're coming from, but it's not really anything different than anyone else who's looking for a DD. There are very few 500+hp daily drivers. I don't care what people tell you, most of them are weekend cars, or cars that make that power on racegas and then switch to lower power for the street. Some are out there, but it's not common. People who are building high horsepower cars aren't really worried about getting 50k miles out of them and beating the **** out of them constantly. They're worried about making the number.

It doesn't matter how spot-on the tune is, nothing can stand up to crazy abuse for an extended period of time. High horsepower cars withstand a lot of abuse and it's just a matter of time before something lets loose. These are still machines, after all.
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