Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday March 5, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-15-2009, 11:25 AM   #1
B-Kerr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 14841
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Millwood KY
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
WRB, VF22, Cusco, Unichip

Default Engine coatings... heat retention... thoughts?

Everyone knows heat from the engine/exhaust is lost power... what about low emissivity / low absorptivity coatings, specifically powdercoats for the block and head. They apply at temperatures low enough that they will not distort or the parts or effect stress. Easier to clean. Look better. Seems like a win-win...

I have powder coated some Honda blocks before without any issue using regular coatings - no distortion or ill effect. However, I have been thinking about thermo-class while I am building my 2.5 for my bugeye. I remember that black-nickle oxide has the best a/e ratio; its what the "miracle thaw plate" was made from, but there should be powders/ceramics that do a good job of not absorbing ambient heat and retaining internal heat.

Just thinking... appreciate any thoughts anyone else has.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
B-Kerr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2009, 02:58 PM   #2
AlxSti
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 94615
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Wilmington, DE
Vehicle:
|'06 STi 341/356|
www.AffinitiBrokerage.com

Default

Interesting.. I don't think I've ever seen this done.
AlxSti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2009, 04:02 PM   #3
~snowman~
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 207011
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: In the clouds.
Default

Ceramic combustion chamber?
~snowman~ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2009, 04:23 PM   #4
AlxSti
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 94615
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Wilmington, DE
Vehicle:
|'06 STi 341/356|
www.AffinitiBrokerage.com

Default

I have a better idea.. Why don't we invent a way to make cold water run around the block to cool it!? But how do we keep the water cold?? Hm...
AlxSti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2009, 05:17 PM   #5
howfast?
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 102027
Join Date: Dec 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: oc
Vehicle:
BugI Tsx retro lamps
for sale not listed pm me

Default

I just saw this company posted last night, someone in SF is using them for powdercoating. I bet you could call them and see who uses their heat resistant Cerakote in your area, or how you can get some and do it yourself etc...

http://www.powdercoat-it.com/sacrame...t-coating.html
howfast? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2009, 06:06 PM   #6
Krang
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 134272
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: HIIC
Location: Kailua, Hawaii
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon - WRB
ej207 v8 vf37

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlxSti View Post
I have a better idea.. Why don't we invent a way to make cold water run around the block to cool it!? But how do we keep the water cold?? Hm...
So lets say we already have a way to do that, what else could we do to keep our block cool? How about a really neato engine coating!
Krang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2009, 12:39 AM   #7
B-Kerr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 14841
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Millwood KY
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
WRB, VF22, Cusco, Unichip

Default

Axlsti... I know your being an ass (as is Krang), but I do see your point... anything a person does to control engine temp will be negated by the thermostat and cooling system. Wasn't thinking that way... initially started thinking about exhaust coatings (such as wraps and ceramics to increase exhaust velocity), and moved more toward the engine. Yes it is a "neato engine coating", it does make an engine look nice an easier to clean, but you are right, it is useless for temp control except on non-water cooled parts like intake and exhaust.

Anyway...

HOWFAST: that is a neat set-up they have, but it looks as if it is a liquid process, so it would be next to impossible to duplicate by the do-it-yourselfer. There are ceramic based powders out there though.

SNOWMAN: ceramic combustion chamber would kick a$$! It could be done, but you would have to have a bare head. That is interesting...
B-Kerr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2009, 01:50 AM   #8
williaty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 71092
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Delaware County, Ohio
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS Wagon
Regal Blue Pearl

Default

Actually, coating the inside of engines to retain heat is a not totally unusual. It does improve efficiency slightly. However, the engine design theory book I just finished did address this directly. It turns out that loss into the metal of the engine is a trivial fraction of the total inefficiency of the engine. Even presuming you could block 100% of the heat from making it into the metal of the engine, the max theoretical possible gains are tiny.
williaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2009, 07:54 AM   #9
~snowman~
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 207011
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: In the clouds.
Default

ya, i have this crazy thoughts about heatsinks, sounds like snake oil i know. Ya, everything these days is getting smaller, faster, quicker, pushing limits of max effeciency as is, and in effect runs hotter. We are changing as humans with our demand for power. Its true an old 386 computer barely took any power/watts to run, but alot of our technology is friigin old man for real. Take a plasma vs lcd, for instance how much juice a plasma eats for an hour for your viewing pleasure, or computer cpus, i know they are phasing out plasmas and garbage but enough about that stupid energy tree hugger crap. i was thinking about a heastsink for the intake somehow or oil filter strap on haha or heat sink valve covers but with the high temps of an engine bay, the knockoff amplifier sinks probly would be unapropriate and possibly innefecient, but ive never seen it done before, probly cause it doesnt work.

I want to buy one of those laser ir temp probes someday, just aim this thing, and it tells you the temp of what you are aiming at.

Last edited by ~snowman~; 04-16-2009 at 08:10 AM.
~snowman~ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2009, 10:06 AM   #10
quazimoto
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 70395
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Da-boonies,Va
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~snowman~ View Post
Ceramic combustion chamber?
/\ This with these http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/techline/ie.html#ie

I have used the CBC1 on motorcyles and other small engines but not a car yet.Techline makes great products.
quazimoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2009, 11:11 AM   #11
B-Kerr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 14841
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Millwood KY
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
WRB, VF22, Cusco, Unichip

Default

SNOW: They already have clamp on heatsinks for oil filters. I really don't understand why they don't cast fins onto aftermarket intakes for turbo cars. The more surface area, the more heat dissipated.

DUM: Did the Techline make a noticeable difference?
B-Kerr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2009, 08:33 PM   #12
bsymac
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 155720
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Reno, NV
Vehicle:
02 Impreza RS
Silver

Default

Other than aesthetics there is no point on coating the outside surface of block. They are cooled by fluid radiator system, therefore retaining the heat is pointless. If you want to cool the combustion chamber you can do other things like meth injection. Money and your energy will be better spent with more advantageous modifications.
bsymac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2009, 02:17 AM   #13
B-Kerr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 14841
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Millwood KY
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
WRB, VF22, Cusco, Unichip

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsymac View Post
Other than aesthetics there is no point on coating the outside surface of block. They are cooled by fluid radiator system, therefore retaining the heat is pointless. If you want to cool the combustion chamber you can do other things like meth injection. Money and your energy will be better spent with more advantageous modifications.
We've already determined the cooling system kills the idea. I wasn't trying to cool the combustion chamber, I was looking at conservation of power by eliminating radiant heat. Heat expelled is power lost. But as stated above, the internal combustion engine and awd trans is so inefficient, the power loss to heat is negligible. Also, this all started when I was spending my energy on a more advantageous modification... a 2.5 block! Just figured while I was at it I would brain storm and see what I could do.
B-Kerr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2009, 07:22 AM   #14
quazimoto
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 70395
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Da-boonies,Va
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~snowman~ View Post
ya, i have this crazy thoughts about heatsinks, sounds like snake oil i know. Ya, everything these days is getting smaller, faster, quicker, pushing limits of max effeciency as is, and in effect runs hotter. We are changing as humans with our demand for power. Its true an old 386 computer barely took any power/watts to run, but alot of our technology is friigin old man for real. Take a plasma vs lcd, for instance how much juice a plasma eats for an hour for your viewing pleasure, or computer cpus, i know they are phasing out plasmas and garbage but enough about that stupid energy tree hugger crap. i was thinking about a heastsink for the intake somehow or oil filter strap on haha or heat sink valve covers but with the high temps of an engine bay, the knockoff amplifier sinks probly would be unapropriate and possibly innefecient, but ive never seen it done before, probly cause it doesnt work.

I want to buy one of those laser ir temp probes someday, just aim this thing, and it tells you the temp of what you are aiming at.
Saw these........http://www.arcinter.co.jp/english/ar...fin/index.html

B-Kerr: I did a bunch of other modifications to the engines as well so it was kinda hard to tell.But the principle makes sense.More heat,more bang,more efficient combustion.
quazimoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2009, 08:13 AM   #15
~snowman~
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 207011
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: In the clouds.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
Wow, Thanks nice find, just when you might think you might be original, its been done, haha.

I have been thinking of something else too, I seen before races they cool the manifold with ice sometimes,

well I was thinking of some kind of contraption, that would use dry ice intake thingamajigger on your intake. Like the incoming air would be at a nice temp to ignite and mix? But, Im sure someone thought of that too, and its just pure dry ice lameness with another nub with a bunk theory.

Or, to use some kind of freon line from the A/C / condenser unit and wrap the intercooler, like that one dude was saying in the Meth forum, that sounds badass. lol haha, okay going to space now, commence countdown major tom.

But maybe we have to consider out engine materials, mainly aluminum. Wich may distort and swell at quick, variations of temp from cool to hot and cycling and changing, argh.

I think the world is your oyster when it comes to coatings, although gandering this article a while ago, was saying how ridiculous coatings were thought and regarded of in the auto field, witchcraft, to nowadays, you can coat almost anything in the engine bay with the right wallet and its proven to the point of sometimes OEM using it, specifically coated piston skirts and all that....

Last edited by ~snowman~; 04-18-2009 at 08:25 AM.
~snowman~ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2009, 03:36 PM   #16
quazimoto
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 70395
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Da-boonies,Va
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~snowman~ View Post
Wow, Thanks nice find, just when you might think you might be original, its been done, haha.

I have been thinking of something else too, I seen before races they cool the manifold with ice sometimes,

well I was thinking of some kind of contraption, that would use dry ice intake thingamajigger on your intake. Like the incoming air would be at a nice temp to ignite and mix? But, Im sure someone thought of that too, and its just pure dry ice lameness with another nub with a bunk theory.

Or, to use some kind of freon line from the A/C / condenser unit and wrap the intercooler, like that one dude was saying in the Meth forum, that sounds badass. lol haha, okay going to space now, commence countdown major tom.
The CO2 intake and intercooler sprayers
http://www.designengineering.com/pro...asp?m=sc&cid=1

Ford's "Supercooler" system
http://www.fordforums.com/f474/svt-s...plained-33176/
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...ing/index.html
quazimoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 08:04 AM   #17
bigolrig
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 185347
Join Date: Jul 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Lexington, OH
Vehicle:
2002 EVO3 bugeye wag
EG33 Swapped 2 dr RS

Default

^^ that supercooler is a awesome idea, i want it!
who wants to be a guinea pig???
bigolrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 10:08 AM   #18
B-Kerr
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 14841
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Millwood KY
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
WRB, VF22, Cusco, Unichip

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~snowman~ View Post
I think the world is your oyster when it comes to coatings, although gandering this article a while ago, was saying how ridiculous coatings were thought and regarded of in the auto field, witchcraft, to nowadays, you can coat almost anything in the engine bay with the right wallet and its proven to the point of sometimes OEM using it, specifically coated piston skirts and all that....
I believe many of the off-the-shelf coatings at the parts store are snake oil. OEM has made some mistakes too... like Ford/Jaguar and their Teflon coated cylinder walls. Teflon is great until the temperature is too high, or you have a low oil situation and the rings peel the stuff off! I have seen XJs with less than 50k on them that have dropped engines due to the Teflon and Jag will not stand behind them! No warranty whatsoever on a 2-3 yo $60k car!
B-Kerr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine coating process earns award for engineers AVANTI R5 Non-Subaru News & Rumors 9 07-10-2009 03:53 PM
FS: Invidia DP ceramic coated + heat wrapped teamxmehow NESIC Private Classifieds 16 05-16-2009 07:25 PM
OE manifold heat retention?? Team Scream Built Motor Discussion 1 12-04-2008 08:06 AM
Another: Ceramic coat / Heat wrap thread Speedemon Newbies & FAQs 1 11-20-2008 04:18 AM
Heat retention pre- vs.post-turbo 2Stroke Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 15 06-25-2004 02:13 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.