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Old 09-28-2009, 07:16 PM   #51
KC
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So you added even more weight in the rear (full size wheel, wood, cables), making your car heavier overall... not to mention the sub box and other assorted items. You can't feel the difference just because you moved the battery.

--kC
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:45 AM   #52
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KC, how much gas do you have in your tank when you auto-cross?

-Mike
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:38 AM   #53
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KC runs at least 100 gallons of 87 octane, because his internet e-thug wang is bigger than anyone elses and he won't stop until everybody agrees
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:30 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
So you added even more weight in the rear (full size wheel, wood, cables), making your car heavier overall... not to mention the sub box and other assorted items. You can't feel the difference just because you moved the battery.

--kC
Well considering the fact that possibly ive been running around with my sub and my full size spare for awhile maybe just maybe i would know what that would feel like or am i just talking krazy and the wood is less then 1/2 lb that cant even be considered extra weight. the sub weighs 10-15 lb amp another 5 or so sure the wheel weighs 25 maybe more. still with moving 35+ from the front to the rear and lower rear i might add is deff noticeable.
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:51 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post
KC, how much gas do you have in your tank when you auto-cross?

-Mike
As little as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draken View Post
KC runs at least 100 gallons of 87 octane, because his internet e-thug wang is bigger than anyone elses and he won't stop until everybody agrees
So you're saying that 'buttdyno' is an approved form of measuring?

Quote:
deff lightens the front not as much washout when cornering hard.
Notice... washing out... public streets... not on a track. Buttdynoed.

You show me datalogs pre and post move, and I'll start believing someone. 'till then? You can kiss my fat hairy white ass as it doesn't make a difference that can be felt, nor measured through the butt dyno, on puclic streets, where the there are so many different variables at play that 'feeling' the effect of moving it is purely psycosomatic.

--kC
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:53 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by SpankySuby View Post
Well considering the fact that possibly ive been running around with my sub and my full size spare for awhile maybe just maybe i would know what that would feel like or am i just talking krazy and the wood is less then 1/2 lb that cant even be considered extra weight. the sub weighs 10-15 lb amp another 5 or so sure the wheel weighs 25 maybe more. still with moving 35+ from the front to the rear and lower rear i might add is deff noticeable.
At the very least, your estimates are way off. A sub box that only weighs 10-15lbs? An amp that's only 5lbs? That's a pretty weak sub at best, or tremendously expensive. And a whole wheel and tire under 25lbs? Really?

IF all that extra weight comes out and you've got the race setup/balancing to match it, the battery relocation is helping you somewhat. Otherwise, it's just making your sub wiring easier to manage.
-N
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Old 09-29-2009, 11:06 AM   #57
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hey hey hey KC no need to be so rude.

sorry i meant that the wheel is about 25lb and the tire is about 25 so total of 50lb and yeah i was underestimating the sub and amp but not by a hole lot you all have great points and sure its all butt dynoed but think that i drive these roads 5 days a week at the same time for 3 years now with this suspension and 1 year with the same tire setup and weight setup and then i go and change 35lb to somewhere else im gonna feel a bit a diff sure its not gonna be a huge life altering change but non the less noticeable diff.

and your still gonna get washout on a track i should have said understeer cuz thats what i really meant.

Last edited by SpankySuby; 09-29-2009 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 09-29-2009, 11:43 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
As little as possible.


So you're saying that 'buttdyno' is an approved form of measuring?

Notice... washing out... public streets... not on a track. Buttdynoed.

You show me datalogs pre and post move, and I'll start believing someone. 'till then? You can kiss my fat hairy white ass as it doesn't make a difference that can be felt, nor measured through the butt dyno, on puclic streets, where the there are so many different variables at play that 'feeling' the effect of moving it is purely psycosomatic.

--kC
Priceless

Yes, I feel that buttdyno is an approved form of measuring various mechanical and setup changes on race kaaas. Turn in feel, propensity to activate abs or lock a wheel, tires getting hot and falling off etc. Data aq is great now that I have it, but how the balance feels mid corner can't be measured with my current setup. In fact, probably 90% of my motorsports experience pre-dated me getting data aq., so obviously I must have been doing it all wrong!

And if I'm not mistaken, you've spent quite a bit time driving and setting up various autox cars without the benefit of data aq. I seem to recall you literally changing springs then going out to see how it "feels." Or was that STX Championship won by pure magic and bull****? It must have, since you used the old "buttdyno." Oh wait, that's right, you were doing it wrong too. No logs!


FWIW, I agree with KC on the WRX/STi battery relocation. With the success of smaller batteries that have a proven life span, I would opt for a lighter battery in the stock location. However, if you need a full size battery, then I could see how moving 35-40 pounds off the LF (up high) to the back (down low) could be something you could feel. I never did it on my STI because I felt there were more important things on the check list. However, I can easily feel it when I juggle 10-15 pounds of ballast around my current (much lighter) car, which is a pretty similar % weight shift as this project.


Off to download my logs from Friday's runs...

PS: Hugs and Kisses KC! Have fun at the WRC, and take lots of pics!

Last edited by Draken; 09-29-2009 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:21 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
You show me datalogs pre and post move, and I'll start believing someone. 'till then? You can kiss my fat hairy white ass as it doesn't make a difference that can be felt, nor measured through the butt dyno, on puclic streets, where the there are so many different variables at play that 'feeling' the effect of moving it is purely psycosomatic.

--kC
Can you feel the difference between a full tank and a half tank? That's about 50 lbs (7.5 gallons at 6.5 lb/gal), which is equivalent to moving 25lb from one end to the other.

You made some sense when you were arguing that it's not worth the effort to relocate when you can just get a lighter battery, but you're just being stupid when you say it's impossible to feel the difference.

-Mike
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Old 09-29-2009, 06:32 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post
Can you feel the difference between a full tank and a half tank? That's about 50 lbs (7.5 gallons at 6.5 lb/gal), which is equivalent to moving 25lb from one end to the other.

You made some sense when you were arguing that it's not worth the effort to relocate when you can just get a lighter battery, but you're just being stupid when you say it's impossible to feel the difference.

-Mike
That's weight reduction, not weight relocation. As you said that he said, you could just get a lighter battery instead of relocating it. Think with your logic, dude.
-N
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Old 09-29-2009, 08:10 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post

You show me datalogs pre and post move, and I'll start believing someone. 'till then? You can kiss my fat hairy white ass as it doesn't make a difference that can be felt, nor measured through the butt dyno, on puclic streets, where the there are so many different variables at play that 'feeling' the effect of moving it is purely psycosomatic.

--kC
Tell that to Mark Donohue. He tuned the suspension on the 917-30 using a skidpad and the 'useless' buttdyno
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Old 09-29-2009, 08:38 PM   #62
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Suspension.... Yeah. Moving the battery is not suspension changes.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:36 PM   #63
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That's weight reduction, not weight relocation. As you said that he said, you could just get a lighter battery instead of relocating it. Think with your logic, dude.
-N
It's reduction, but it comes with a change to weight balance as well. The weight balance portion of the change is what affects handling, and it's roughly equivalent.

-Mike
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:42 PM   #64
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It's reduction, but it comes with a change to weight balance as well. The weight balance portion of the change is what affects handling, and it's roughly equivalent.

-Mike
Well, if you want to be pedantic, replacing the front heavy battery with a front lightweight battery also affects the balance part of things.

Seriously folks, I did replace my battery and I'm glad I did and I'm sure it helps, but it's not so huge as people are making it out to be, especially not alone without a lot of other weight reduction/relocation modifications to go along with it.
-N
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Old 09-30-2009, 02:05 AM   #65
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Well, if you want to be pedantic, replacing the front heavy battery with a front lightweight battery also affects the balance part of things.

Seriously folks, I did replace my battery and I'm glad I did and I'm sure it helps, but it's not so huge as people are making it out to be, especially not alone without a lot of other weight reduction/relocation modifications to go along with it.
-N
Dropping half off the weight of the battery in place is only 1/4 of the weight balance change from moving the entire battery.

-Mike
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Old 09-30-2009, 06:16 AM   #66
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Dropping half off the weight of the battery in place is only 1/4 of the weight balance change from moving the entire battery.

-Mike
This is like arguing with a 2-year-old - maybe you're just trying to get me angry - I can never tell. Clueless arguments made online for the sake of starting an argument will make you look stupid down the road though if you continue.

You tried suggesting KC shouldn't bother because that affects weight balance and he says weight balance isn't worth it. He has maintained all along that weight savings are worthwhile. As you said yourself, running with a minimal tank is an easy way to save 50lbs at least. That's why he would do it. Yes, it affects balance too, but the value of minimal gas in the tank isn't nearly as important to balance as it is to overall weight, especially when the weight is all between the axles either way.
-N
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Old 09-30-2009, 05:59 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by neilschelly View Post
This is like arguing with a 2-year-old - maybe you're just trying to get me angry - I can never tell. Clueless arguments made online for the sake of starting an argument will make you look stupid down the road though if you continue.
You need to read that again and think really, really hard about it. The first step in avoiding that behavior is to not jump straight to accusing other people of that when what they say doesn't make sense to you, or you don't agree with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilschelly View Post
You tried suggesting KC shouldn't bother because that affects weight balance and he says weight balance isn't worth it. He has maintained all along that weight savings are worthwhile. As you said yourself, running with a minimal tank is an easy way to save 50lbs at least. That's why he would do it. Yes, it affects balance too, but the value of minimal gas in the tank isn't nearly as important to balance as it is to overall weight, especially when the weight is all between the axles either way.
-N
I didn't suggest KC try anything, I was asking him questions which I was pretty sure I knew the answer to, to get him to admit to feeling the difference. Then I made a comparison, in terms of weight balance change, to running with 1/2 tank of gas. If that comparison doesn't make sense to you, then you need to work through the math. If you don't know how to compute changes in weight balance from adding/removing/weight, you could ask for some help.

My STI feels very distinctly different with a full tank than a half tank, on track, at 10/10. The extra weight toward the rear helps the car to rotate better. It's much more noticeable than the simple weight loss, hence why I think it's a valid comparison against battery relocation when also considering the relative magnitude of weight balance changes. If your personal experience doesn't agree with that, that's fine, but that doesn't make me clueless.

If KC doesn't want to relocate his battery because he doesn't feel it's worth the effort or the money or just doesn't care, then fine. If he wants to talk someone out of doing it based on those reasons, fine. I'd even agree that there are many drivers out there that probably can't feel the handling difference. But there are certainly plenty of drivers on this forum who can. Even if KC thinks he can't tell, I'm betting he can based on what I've inferred about his experience and skill level from 5 years on this forum. Hence he really should know better than to say it's impossible to feel.

-Mike
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Old 09-30-2009, 07:53 PM   #68
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Fine then. KC's on a plane (or probably off by now) to see the Spain WRC. But I'll bet anything he will say he runs with less gas to save weight and increase power-weight ratio, which is also something you can feel.

Losing 50lbs from a car, regardless of balance, makes a car handle noticeably better. And still, when that weight is as low as the gas tank, centered left to right, and between the two axles, it makes almost no difference to the front/rear weight ratio. For those reasons, your comparison to gas in the tank is useless.
-N
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Old 10-18-2009, 06:42 AM   #69
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first off, can you all shut the **** up so those of us who do want to relocate our batteries for no reason at all can have a decent thred to base it off of.

i personally am moving my battery to the trunk because yes, i do track my car, yes, it does make my subs easier to take in and out, and yes, i do feel that any weight i move is an improvement, and yes, i like the cleaner look under the hood and it makes it easier to work on anything on the drivers side (ie. headlight)

anyway, this man def. has it down with a very clean process.
http://wgbuckley.com/projects/battery.html

i will be completing my relocation soon and ill post up all the pics.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:25 PM   #70
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Suspension.... Yeah. Moving the battery is not suspension changes.
sure it is

it is ballasting and that is suspension tuning

100% sure as hell IS

take a 40pound weight and move it around in the car

If YOU cant tell the difference when you move it.....well...I sure as hell can
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:28 PM   #71
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Fine then. KC's on a plane (or probably off by now) to see the Spain WRC. But I'll bet anything he will say he runs with less gas to save weight and increase power-weight ratio, which is also something you can feel.

Losing 50lbs from a car, regardless of balance, makes a car handle noticeably better. And still, when that weight is as low as the gas tank, centered left to right, and between the two axles, it makes almost no difference to the front/rear weight ratio. For those reasons, your comparison to gas in the tank is useless.
-N
my next 'thing' is gonna be a light front bumper beam

That ought to make almost 100 pounds off the front of my car

somebody.....tell me that THAT wont make any difference
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Old 10-20-2009, 12:03 AM   #72
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my next 'thing' is gonna be a light front bumper beam

That ought to make almost 100 pounds off the front of my car

somebody.....tell me that THAT wont make any difference
Brief aside:

I put a 2.5 lb aluminum bumper beam (just enough to prevent the front from flopping at speed) on in place of the factory one, HUGE difference. Then again, I forgot to drive that car the last time I went to Quantico, so I have no actual data to support my claim. However, I am loving it. Battery thing to happen further down the road, like next season maybe.

OK, you guys can go back to fighting now.
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:43 AM   #73
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If KC doesn't want to relocate his battery because he doesn't feel it's worth the effort or the money or just doesn't care, then fine. If he wants to talk someone out of doing it based on those reasons, fine. I'd even agree that there are many drivers out there that probably can't feel the handling difference. But there are certainly plenty of drivers on this forum who can. Even if KC thinks he can't tell, I'm betting he can based on what I've inferred about his experience and skill level from 5 years on this forum. Hence he really should know better than to say it's impossible to feel.

-Mike
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sure it is

it is ballasting and that is suspension tuning

100% sure as hell IS

take a 40pound weight and move it around in the car

If YOU cant tell the difference when you move it.....well...I sure as hell can
I'll reiterate what my initial posting was. My thoughts have become quite intorturated by everyone....

Facts:
1) Stock battery is 35 lbs.
2) Oddysey is ~13lbs.
3) Cabling to trunk ~3-5lbs.
4) Car in question is an STX car (stockish)... not a 'prepped race car'.

Are we OK with that?

Moving on...

Stock(ish) car (STX capable). Why move it? (Other than to say you did?)

While I agree moving the stock battery to the rear will be *slightly/marginally* felt, while adding extra weight via cables ... keeping a light weight 13lb battery in the stock location vs the rear will not. That's my stance. Now, I'll continue to explain why I believe in reducing TOTAL weight and not just moving it around. (Something I can't believe that Scotty is arguing as he should understand as well as I that total weight reduction is more important than just moving existing weight around).

a) You have 13lbs from the Oddysey... will you feel the difference if it's in the front vs the rear? Stop looking at the 35lb stocker.... to me, it's not even a consideration to keep in the car! Leaving the Oddysey in the stock location, from 35 lbs to 13 lbs. that's only 22 lbs lost. Not 40. You've now reduced total maximum weight of the car (by not having to add in another 3ish lbs of cable). 22lbs can be balanced out and I will contend until I'm blue in the face, while you may notice a 22lb drop in the corner/total weight from the car, you won't notice the 13lb relocation if you take that 13lbs off the front and move 16 lbs to the under and rear of the car.

b) Moving it to the trunk, instead of dropping 22lbs, because of the cables, sure, you've taken 35lbs off the nose, but net weight drop is now only ~17-19lbs due to the weight of the cabling, and added 13 lbs to the rear, but took 35 off the front. This is not a race car remember, it's still stockish with only a few allowable modifications.

Moving to the rear vs just leaving the oddysey in the front is:
I) Heavier overall than just having the oddysey in the stock location and
II) the benefits are overshadowed by the driving capability and total overall setup of the car because all you have done is moved 13 lbs off the nose and added 16 lbs to the rear/underside of the car.

*THAT* is the net gain/loss of the whole thing. NOT 35 lbs in total.

I'm looking at the car as a whole and that's the part that many get lost in. I believe in reducing total weight. Never said I didn't. Which is why I suggest getting a lightweight racing battery and ditching the stocker. The difference is in 'where does it go?'

On a stockish/stx car, that 17-22 lbs is not going to be felt, no matter where it resides in the car. On a car that's done almost everything else to shave weight (ie: bumper beams, etc....) and a more prepped race/time attack/Street Mod/Street Prepared, etc... car? Sure. You may notice is a little more.

This one is more directed at Scotty: 13lbs in the stock location vs 13. in the rear AND 3 under the car... tell me how the suspension is going to feel the difference enough to be 'tuned'. Even using the stocker, the suspension can be 'tuned' with the stock battery in the stock location. Right?

On a race car, or heavily modified car, move the weight to get your optimum balance. On a stock(ish) car, reduce total weight 1st *then* balance the car with what's left over. 13lbs in the front vs 13lbs in the rear won't be felt on a 3000lb car, or a 2800lb car for that matter.

--kC

Last edited by KC; 10-20-2009 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:17 AM   #74
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13 lbs battery change in a 3200 lb car = .004% change

now maybe your butt dyno might sense that, but doubtful!
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:59 AM   #75
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Moving 13lbs from the front to the back of a 3200lb car is a .4% change.

Taking 35lbs totally off the front, on a 3000 car (WRX), with a 60/40 F/R weight,

3000/100*60= 1800 lbs on the front half of the car before moving the stock battery to the rear.

35/1800 = 1.9% reduction off the front for total removal of stock battery to rear.
22/1800 = 1.2% reduction off the front for 13 lb battery in stock location.

35/1200 = 2.9% addition of weight to the rear for stock battery.
13/1200 = 1% addition of weight to the rear for 13 lb battery.

22/3000 = .7% total weight loss using 13 lb battery in stock location
17/3000 = .56% total weight loss using 13 lb battery + 5lb of cable to relocate battery to trunk

Using these numbers (Thanks Dave for the reminder) you can see my point that using the 13lb battery in the stock location is the better bet. Overall weight of the car is down, but the balance change F/R would be almost negligible if you moved it front to rear.

It *is* a bigger F/R change to move the stock battery. I agree. My premise is that you'd want to ditch it anyways for a lighter battery.

Starting to make sense yet?

--kC
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