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Old 04-21-2009, 01:52 PM   #1
Banannie
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Default May Fastrack

You're kidding, right?

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...k-may-solo.pdf

The following rule change proposal is published here for member feedback: Add to 14.10.F.1 as follows: “Alternate software
maps which violate these restrictions may not be present during competition, regardless of activation.”


I already wrote my letter - and I almost NEVER write letters. I'm totally not comfortable daily driving my STU map for reliability reasons. If this goes through, I'll have one expensive STU car that won't see another national event.
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:01 PM   #2
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What does that rule even MEAN? How is software that is not in use, still 'present'?

This is absurd.
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:02 PM   #3
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Annie,

If I reading this correctly, only ST* illegal maps would be deemed illegal. So you could run a "stock map" and "STU legal" map on your STU STi. However, it would mean that you couldn't have a high boost "Cobb Stage 2" map on the car.

That's how I'm reading it. So you wouldn't have to daily drive on your STU map.

-Chike

P.S. KC/ScoobySouth/etc what's your take on it???
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:03 PM   #4
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I'm not going to run a stock map and risk overboosting (anyone that's seen me drive knows I've got no issue with aggression - I like to play a little on the street!)

Max made a good point to me - I could argue that I only have the base (stock) map and the STU map flashed on my ECU when competing, the "other" maps are on a toy in my toolbox (AccessPort). But that's clearly not their intent...
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:09 PM   #5
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Uhhhhh who else saw the new Hyundai Genesis Turbo coupe in G-Stock?????????
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWilson2 View Post
Uhhhhh who else saw the new Hyundai Genesis Turbo coupe in G-Stock?????????
I did! With the mini moving to DS in 2010, that could be interesting!!!
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:13 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banannie View Post
I'm not going to run a stock map and risk overboosting (anyone that's seen me drive knows I've got no issue with aggression - I like to play a little on the street!)

Max made a good point to me - I could argue that I only have the base (stock) map and the STU map flashed on my ECU when competing, the "other" maps are on a toy in my toolbox (AccessPort). But that's clearly not their intent...
I think their intent is that the competitor not be able to "switch" maps easily during competition. For instance, for some tuning tools, you hit the cruise control while inserting a finger up your bottom, and it changes maps. To do that, you must have both maps loaded on the car. An AccessPort does not work like that, so I would argue it is completely legal even under this new rule.
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlkWRXWag View Post
For instance, for some tuning tools, you hit the cruise control while inserting a finger up your bottom, and it changes maps.
LOL. Max said "bottom"!!!
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWilson2 View Post
Uhhhhh who else saw the new Hyundai Genesis Turbo coupe in G-Stock?????????
My first thought too...

My second, third, fourth and fifth thoughts, however, were:

-weighing 3250-3300 pounds in stock class form (3380 for 2.0T Track)
-having skinny 18 or 19" wheels (track model)
-typically short 2nd gear on the 6spd
-pretty damn wide car for transistion heavy courses

Chris H.
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:31 PM   #10
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Doesn't matter. How is it policed?

Besides being caught with your hand on the cruise control and your finger in your bottom.

Very high brow Max.

<--- also very interested in how the genesis does. I have a thing for pudgy cars.

Edit: I should have prefaced with "As annoying as it is,"
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlkWRXWag View Post
I think their intent is that the competitor not be able to "switch" maps easily during competition. For instance, for some tuning tools, you hit the cruise control while inserting a finger up your bottom, and it changes maps. To do that, you must have both maps loaded on the car. An AccessPort does not work like that, so I would argue it is completely legal even under this new rule.
I could only really see this being an issue with the 08 STIs since they can switch maps on the fly with the iDrive controller. I was wondering how they would ever police that but it would be WAY too easy to cheat with one of those cars. I don't think it makes reflashing with the AP before an event illegal since there would be no way to switch on the fly. I am in the same boat as Annie, I switch maps before and after every event because my tuner told me not to run the STU map in 4th gear or above. Also like Annie I like to have a bit of fun on the street so I have a Stage 2 map for street driving.

-Colin
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:38 PM   #12
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Colin, since 08+ STI's can switch maps from the factory using the I-Drive controller, one could make the arguement that they are all illegal in STU in stock form. Nice

Paul Magyar - are you listening?!!
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:41 PM   #13
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It looks to me, like known flashing programs will be referenced upon request, and then disclosed as to the number of maps present in the ECU memory. If more than one is present, it would be disallowed, or subject to protest.

There is no way to disallow an ECU containing a single map, but then again, they're going to need to define a "map" and what constitutes the "presence" of a map. Would it be in the ECU memory? In memory capable of being connected to the ECU reasonably easily? On the site? Written and available to use by anyone?

What a sad-sad way to kill off a category that started with the best intentions.

Jay
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:43 PM   #14
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On sccaforums.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Hollis
This is all about ECUs with multiple maps present at the same time (one switched on, one switch off). It has nothing to do with reflashes, etc, which are entirely within both the spirit and letter of the rules.

Think about rules enforcement on boost mods which you think about this. As in switching between legal and illegal maps when you come off the course.


--Andy "not my idea, just the messenger, don't shoot me"

That makes more sense. Two maps on the car at the same time that can be switched on the fly. Otherwise there would be a whole lot of illegal cars.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiketkd View Post
Annie,

If I reading this correctly, only ST* illegal maps would be deemed illegal. So you could run a "stock map" and "STU legal" map on your STU STi. However, it would mean that you couldn't have a high boost "Cobb Stage 2" map on the car.

That's how I'm reading it. So you wouldn't have to daily drive on your STU map.

-Chike

P.S. KC/ScoobySouth/etc what's your take on it???
Digesting....Give me a few...
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:27 PM   #16
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Existing Rule
Quote:
14.10.F.1
1. Reprogrammed ECU (via hardware and/or software) may be used in the standard housing. Traction control parameters
may not be altered. Altered engine controllers may not alter boost levels in forced induction engines.
Additional Proposal:

Quote:
Alternate software maps which violate these restrictions may not be present during competition, regardless of activation.
Now....

Quote:
14.10.F.1
1. Reprogrammed ECU (via hardware and/or software) may be used in the standard housing. Traction control parameters
may not be altered. Altered engine controllers may not alter boost levels in forced induction engines. Alternate software maps which violate these restrictions may not be present during competition, regardless of activation.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:31 PM   #17
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I read it as something that can be done on the Fly....so an 08 that has that factory...would be illegal???? for STU.

Annie...don't think you have anything to worry about...you should be fine..
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:33 PM   #18
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Now the whole Section With the rule proposal :

Quote:
F. The engine management system parameters and operation may be modified only via the methods listed below. Any and all
modifications must meet or exceed the applicable EPA tailpipe emissions standards for the year, make, and model of the car.
These allowances also apply to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted. Boost changes indirectly resulting from allowed modifications are permissible, but directly altering or modifying the boost or turbo controls, either mechanically or electronically, is strictly prohibited.

1. Reprogrammed ECU (via hardware and/or software) may be used in the standard housing. Traction control parameters may not be altered. Altered engine controllers may not alter boost levels in forced induction engines. Alternate software maps which violate these restrictions may not be present during competition, regardless of activation.

2. Electronic components may be installed in-line between an engine’s sensors and ECU. These components may alter the signal coming from the sensor in order to affect the ECU’s operation of engine management system. Example: fuel controllers
that modify the signal coming from an airflow sensor.

3. Fuel pressure regulators may be replaced in lieu of electronic alterations to the fuel system. It is not permitted to electronically modify the fuel system AND replace a fuel
pressure regulator.

4. Ignition timing may be set at any point on factory adjustable distributor ignition systems.

5. VTEC controllers and other devices may be used which alter the timing of factory standard electronic variable valve timing systems.

6. All ST vehicles must comply with the EPA tailpipe emissions test requirements as a minimum.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:49 PM   #19
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This means that 08+ STI's must have the same map on the three IDrive knob positions to be STU legal.

Accessports are still fully legal.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:57 PM   #20
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exactly....^^^^^ thats exactly how I read it...
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:59 PM   #21
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Wish they'd simply written it clearer so that people like me (who really really get concerned over having a legal car) don't misinterpret the darn thing
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Old 04-21-2009, 05:29 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlkWRXWag View Post
This means that 08+ STI's must have the same map on the three IDrive knob positions to be STU legal.

Accessports are still fully legal.
Are you sure? I read it as:

1) This means that 08+ STI's must have STU legal maps on the three IDrive knob positions to be STU legal.

2) Accessports are still fully legal if the base map and realtime map are both STU legal.
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Old 04-21-2009, 05:32 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leecea View Post
Are you sure? I read it as:

1) This means that 08+ STI's must have STU legal maps on the three IDrive knob positions to be STU legal.

2) Accessports are still fully legal if the base map and realtime map are both STU legal.
Ah yes, I think that works as well.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:39 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leecea View Post
I read it as:

1) This means that 08+ STI's must have STU legal maps on the three IDrive knob positions to be STU legal.
Ugh. I really don't like this idea since I didn't want to mess with the engine/ECU and have to do something like this (aka I just wanted to leave the drivetrain/ECU stock.)

At least I'm only doing local events so I don't think it really will be a big deal for me.

This also gets into the 'which map is stock' argument on the 08 STi.

Ugh I wish they would stop messing with the ST* rules. They should go pick on the stock classes or *SP for a while.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:50 PM   #25
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Eh. How are you going to know? Run around pushing everyone's cruise control button, seeing what happens and then datalogging it before and after? It's not like a bunch of balloons pop out of the hood scoop saying "super boost enabled!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlkWRXWag View Post
Accessports are still fully legal.
I dunno. The Accessport lets you have a base map and a realtime map. One could argue that using a realtime map would violate this rule because all you have to do is reset the battery to get the basemap back. That is not too far away from what they are trying to prevent. And how does someone know if you're using a legal realtime map? At least on the APv1, the "show current map" only tells you what basemap is loaded, not what realtime map is loaded.

How about the APv2? I don't have one of those and have no idea if it is smart enough to tell you your realtime map or not, or whether it has any of those cruise control button features.

How about ECUTek - is there some sort of way of knowing how many maps are loaded into it? Or are all those cars instantly illegal?

How about the open source stuff? Is it possible for people to create their own map-switching sequences (entering the Konami code with your shifter, or something)?

I don't know yet how I feel about it other than thinking a) Terry Fair is probably ecstatic and b) the people that would violate it are the scumbags that are going to cheat anyway and probably have a way around it, i.e. it has good intentions but will do little to help prevent cheaters and will probably cost people money who have spent $$ trying to be legal.

"If you outlaw multiple ECU maps, only outlaws will have multiple ECU maps"

:shrug:

Last edited by Butt Dyno; 04-21-2009 at 11:06 PM. Reason: clarity
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