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Old 04-23-2009, 04:58 PM   #1
07ImprezaMB
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Default News on accessport from rallitek.

So i just couldnt take it anymore. All this talk about an accessport finally coming out for our n/a's. And everybody has heard diff dates on when its coming out. I called rallitek myself today and talked to ken. He said they were actually talking about it this morning. And they are still researching it. He said the problem they are running into is that everybody wants to go a diff route with it and they cant figure out which way to take. For example, they dont know if they should make it for a n/a putting on forced induction, or make for a n/a thats staying n/a and just wants a tune, etc.

So he said that we are looking at 3-6 months before it is on the market. His exact words were "we are thinking late summer, early fall". So looks like whoever is waiting for this will be waiting longer than expected.
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Old 04-23-2009, 05:22 PM   #2
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Lets see.....staying NA would mean the timing should be capable of advance or retard and fueling should be controlled for better cams, porting, displacement/compression changes, etc......

Adding forced induction would mean timing should be capable of retard or maybe advance in some cases and fueling should be controlled for more airflow, boost, better cams, displacement/compression changes, etc.....Air flow metering and/or manifold pressures should be flexible to allow for positive pressure.

What am I leaving out besides motivation to offer a product for those who didn't buy a WRX? My standalone has 220 cells for fuel and 220 for ignition. I can choose non-turbo for engine load resolution of vacuum over the entire range, or forced induction for load resolution of vacuum through half the range and scaling up into a user defined positive pressure limit.

Jay Storm
Happily running standalone.......

Last edited by Storm; 04-23-2009 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 04-23-2009, 05:48 PM   #3
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Ha!
They keep pushing it.
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Old 04-23-2009, 06:03 PM   #4
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open source tuning ftw
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Old 04-23-2009, 06:35 PM   #5
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meh...
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:05 PM   #6
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just get open source! or if older then 2005 get a PP6!
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:33 PM   #7
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forget AP.. either go ispeed or pp6 or if MY05 up go open source with vagcom
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Old 04-23-2009, 11:05 PM   #8
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Disclaimer: Sarcasm ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 07ImprezaMB View Post
So looks like whoever is waiting for this will be waiting longer than expected.
ZOMG no wai.
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Old 04-24-2009, 12:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07ImprezaMB View Post
So i just couldnt take it anymore. All this talk about an accessport finally coming out for our n/a's. And everybody has heard diff dates on when its coming out. I called rallitek myself today and talked to ken. He said they were actually talking about it this morning. And they are still researching it. He said the problem they are running into is that everybody wants to go a diff route with it and they cant figure out which way to take. For example, they dont know if they should make it for a n/a putting on forced induction, or make for a n/a thats staying n/a and just wants a tune, etc.
OK, see, here's where I start to get really, really suspicious.

The AP hardware and software, at least for the turbo version, and the opensource hardware and software, are intent-agnostic. Meaning that the hardware and software don't care what you're trying to do with the car. They merely give you access to the built-in functionality of the ECU (ignoring things like LC, FFS, SD, etc). It's up to the tuner to develop the specific values in the tables that the tools let you access to make the "tune" suited to one application or another (high-rev NA vs blower, etc). So, reading between the lines of what the OP says, it sounds like they're having trouble deciding which hardware setups to target for Off The Shelf (OTS) maps.

If that's true, and obviously this is about 3rd hand at this point, why are they waiting? Release the hardware now, start making a return on the development investment! They'll get people on the first day of sales who will snap up AP hardware with no maps. Those people will appear moments later at professional tuners and get a Protune.

If it isn't true, then what's going on with the hardware or tuning software that's preventing release?
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Old 04-24-2009, 12:08 PM   #10
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Relax guys...

We just don't want to over promise and under deliver. We are working with Cobb for including all the assorted models. Ken is only talking about preset maps. If you guys want to speed this up, contact me so I can collect ROMS and send them to Cobb. Right now we do not have all models available.

We want to include preset maps so you have something to gain by getting Accessport alone without having to tune your self. We are working on E85, power, and economy maps for stock cars. Intake and Exhaust packages (Stg2)... (as well as anti-theft and Valet) The Accessport will be available sooner if you guts want them without pre-tuned map setups. (Pro-Race format).

Ken is referring to some 'kits' we will have available by end of summer.

-Turbo kit by AVO

-Supercharger Kit by Raptor

-N/A Cams / heads / pistons by RalliTEK

All these will by 'Turn Key' packages available @ RalliTEK.com by end of summer.

If you want to help or have tech questions on our N/A Accessport post up or email me directly @ ralliteksubaru@yahoo.com

Thank you,

Sean S.

www.RalliTEK.com
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Old 04-24-2009, 12:25 PM   #11
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mmmmm....economy map.....
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Old 04-24-2009, 01:57 PM   #12
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I need ROMS...

Plese contact me if you are local and can help. I have a meeting with Cobb this afternoon and I'll provide more details.

Thank you!

Sean S.

www.RalliTEK.com
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Old 04-24-2009, 03:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
Lets see.....staying NA would mean the timing should be capable of advance or retard and fueling should be controlled for better cams, porting, displacement/compression changes, etc......

Adding forced induction would mean timing should be capable of retard or maybe advance in some cases and fueling should be controlled for more airflow, boost, better cams, displacement/compression changes, etc.....Air flow metering and/or manifold pressures should be flexible to allow for positive pressure.

What am I leaving out besides motivation to offer a product for those who didn't buy a WRX? My standalone has 220 cells for fuel and 220 for ignition. I can choose non-turbo for engine load resolution of vacuum over the entire range, or forced induction for load resolution of vacuum through half the range and scaling up into a user defined positive pressure limit.

Jay Storm
Happily running standalone.......
dude WTF nobody cares about what you typed hahahahaha we only care about a AP for a N/A they should have it made to order like you should be able to order a N/A stock preloaded one or a N/A F/I preloaded one
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Old 04-24-2009, 03:48 PM   #14
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Turn key ummmmmm sounds ultra cool
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Old 04-24-2009, 03:56 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by GEE-OTTO View Post
dude WTF nobody cares about what you typed hahahahaha we only care about a AP for a N/A they should have it made to order like you should be able to order a N/A stock preloaded one or a N/A F/I preloaded one
um, you do realize even the Turbo guys have to get their AP's protuned, right?

There's no such thing as a "turnkey" EM for a subaru. The OTS are only good for getting your car to your local tuner in one piece.
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Old 04-24-2009, 04:40 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GEE-OTTO
dude WTF nobody cares about what you typed hahahahaha we only care about a AP for a N/A they should have it made to order like you should be able to order a N/A stock preloaded one or a N/A F/I preloaded one
Quote:
Originally Posted by rougeben83 View Post
um, you do realize even the Turbo guys have to get their AP's protuned, right?

There's no such thing as a "turnkey" EM for a subaru. The OTS are only good for getting your car to your local tuner in one piece.
Exactly....and my point was completely missed. The work on the FI ECUs has been done, refined and proven reliable. Unless there are some huge hurdles to changing the engine load range reference points to eliminate positive pressure values or allowing positive timing changes, this type of system should have been done a LONG__LONG time ago.

I got tired of waiting, so went a different route. GEE-OTTO....you'd be hard-pressed to find any posts by me in the turbo section. I'm pretty comitted to the NA scene. Do a search for posts by me, ya noob.....

EDIT: "Turnkey" sounds halfassed. If the user doesn't know how to accurately describe the specific engine in question, the tune will not be right. Failures will occurr and the system will be incorrectly blamed.

Jay
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Old 04-24-2009, 05:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rougeben83 View Post
um, you do realize even the Turbo guys have to get their AP's protuned, right?

There's no such thing as a "turnkey" EM for a subaru. The OTS are only good for getting your car to your local tuner in one piece.
^Correct. With a given set of mods on an otherwise completely STOCK car, OTS maps are alright. What I mean by this is that they are alright. Not great. I guess I'll stretch and say they're good, in the sense that they work and give you more power and some driveabilty over no tune at all. But, as most people know, every motor runs just a bit different.

How many components affect the way your motor runs? Now, manufacturing tolerances these days are pretty damn good, but if you compare a new car on one end of the 'tolerance spectrum' from the factory against a heavily flogged/used car that's got some miles on it that, from the factory, was on the other end of the spectrum, you would understand that these cars don't run the same.

Now, put one at sea level, and one in the mountains at 4000 ft. One in dry California, one in the humid southeast. One that runs on lower octane "premium" fuel and one that runs on higher octane "premium" fuel (standards can vary from state to state).

Now, imagine trying to tune for ALL of these variables. Engine wear, humidity, air density, fuel quality, maintenance standards, type of driver... You're going to leave a large amout of performance on the plate compared to a tune that's specific to your vehicle, area, driving style, and MOST IMPORTANTLY the desired effect. ANY off the shelf tune from ANY tuner is tamed down drastically. Even with KNOWN components (these kits that Rallitek is talking about) and controlled variables, what about stacked mods? What if I already have a full exhaust and cams? Do you think the OTS map for a supercharger is going to work well for me? Hell no!

Point being, OTS maps are fine to add a little power to your car. I won't dispute that. But, on N/A, we don't have quite the gains available to turbo'd vehicles staying on a tame map (turbo cars can gain anywhere from 20-50 horse and much better throttle response from an OTS map). So, I would guess that the MOST power one could get from a premade tune on an otherwise stock car would be 10CHP. As part of an advanced kit on an otherwise stock car, say, cams, exhaust, and the other big N/A bolt-ons, 15CHP. Custom tune would be 20-30CHP and much better driveability, as well as being able to tell the tuner what you desire: Max peak power, smooth power delivery, quick spool, high reliability, etc. You name it, they can tune for it as best as possible with a given set of parts.

The point Jay was trying to make is that the only variables you're modifying for N/A tuning is ignition advance/retard and fuel delivery. That's it. So, why is this so complicated? Making an N/A access port that only adds 10-20HP implies low cost. Making the same access port handle forced induction - supercharger, turbocharger, or leaf blower -really isn't a practical use for it. People doing major work like that should be getting custom tunes, because MOST people would rather pay $200 for an OTS map that'll work well, and then switch to a different EM if they decide to go turbo. I for one would not consider paying $500 for a couple of OTS maps that would give me 10CHP.

This is why the ACCESSPORT should just be a simple N/A tuning device, in my opinion. Although the variables you're modifying for N/A vs. FI really aren't that different, you do have a lot more things to control with a FI car - and a lot more safety measures built into the AP. They should make OTS maps for mostly stock cars, and allow tuners to do the heavily modified vehicles. I mean, even if Rallitek just charges $200 for the AP with SIMPLE 2 or 3 stage N/A maps, and $300 more for FI maps for people with modified vehicles, they'd make MORE money because a lot more people would pay $200 for OTS maps rather than $500 for OTS maps.

I have no idea what the AP is gonna cost, but I just think making a product for a bigger audience is what the N/A crowd has been wanting for 10 years. NOT something that's gonna cost out the nose with lots of unuseable features for the majority of its "target audience".

Just my 200 cents.
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:29 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rougeben83 View Post
um, you do realize even the Turbo guys have to get their AP's protuned, right?

There's no such thing as a "turnkey" EM for a subaru. The OTS are only good for getting your car to your local tuner in one piece.
If upgrades and maps are matched, 'Turn Key' kits are perfectly viable. If you have custom setups then ProTune is required.

We will have 'Turn Key' upgrades already mapped:

-Turbo kit (pump gas / E85)

-Supercharger kit (pump gas / E85)

-N/A engine internals like cams, heads, pistons in kit form (pump gas, and some kits will be E85 only)

The advantages of dual fuel kits are many, and Accessport will allow simple transition between fuels.

By the end of summer these items will be available. Accessport can be available much sooner if folks want the AP for custom tuning. If you want pre-tuned maps like the turbo guys (stg1 / Stg2) it will take longer as we develop the mapping. We also need help. Tell us what you would like to see for stg2 items, and contact me for tuning on you car.

Let us know what you would like to see from this product!

ralliteksubaru@yahoo.com

Thank you,

Sean S.

www.RalliTEK.com
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:39 PM   #19
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the ability to map manifold pressure so i could upgrade to forced induction if needed . it is the one thing tuning with romraider that prohibits me from throwing on a supercharger .
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:00 PM   #20
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Have you seriously not found the MAP sensor scaling table?
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:10 PM   #21
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no i have but on our roms its too limited .

merch god says if i mess with it i may have issues because alot of things run off the map value and because it will be vaiable with forced induction there is no telling how the other functions of the ecu will react and it may crash.

anyone else i have seen run a s/c on the ej253 uses a stand alone ecu to get around the issue . which is what i will probably have to do .

this access port is a joke lol i just want to see what they are doing with it and how quality it will be for the grand it costs .
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:30 PM   #22
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no i have but on our roms its too limited .

merch god says if i mess with it i may have issues because alot of things run off the map value and because it will be vaiable with forced induction there is no telling how the other functions of the ecu will react and it may crash.
No, I never said it would "crash". What I said is if you if add an aftermarket MAP sensor and rescale for it and are running forced induction, the ECU will be seeing MAP above atmospheric pressure, something which would not be the case with an NA motor. There's the possibility that there may be some response by the ECU (or influence on the tune), but I can't tell you for sure as I haven't gone through every reference of MAP in the NA ROM (the known references like the related engine load comp and tip-in enrich comp you can already tune via RR). There may be no response or nothing of importance. I just threw that out there as a possibility. And like I said before, you can test this without adding forced induction by changing the MAP scaling offset temporarily to mimic what you would see with forced induction. Of course, even if there was an effect, it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out what is going on and come up with a fix for it or tune around it.
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:51 PM   #23
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this in fact is true , i apreciate to the fullest you giving me your attention with this issue .

you never said the word "crash " but without having to write two paragraphs worth of info i just said crash. maybe too harsh sorry .

i should have just said "issues "

i have to say i love romraider and all the good work you guys do .

thank you merchgod for being a good christian and american .

i highly recogmend to everyone to accually learn what it is thats being "tuned" and not just opt for the lazy way .

with a better understanding of what is happening in a modern motor vehicle i think our roads would be safer . with that understanding romraider is an easy application to get your hands around .
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:27 PM   #24
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So, if the AP is released in the next couple weeks with no maps installed but is able to be used to tune your car as a real time standalone with all the AP features included, who would be interested?!!!

Also, if a group buy was arranged and included free RalliTek swag, who wants to be part of this?!



ROM is still needed in most 05+ Legacy models and all 05+ Forester models!!!! PLEASE contact RalliTek if you can help.

Last edited by 07Sleeper; 04-27-2009 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:10 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by williaty View Post
OK, see, here's where I start to get really, really suspicious.

The AP hardware and software, at least for the turbo version, and the opensource hardware and software, are intent-agnostic. Meaning that the hardware and software don't care what you're trying to do with the car. They merely give you access to the built-in functionality of the ECU (ignoring things like LC, FFS, SD, etc). It's up to the tuner to develop the specific values in the tables that the tools let you access to make the "tune" suited to one application or another (high-rev NA vs blower, etc). So, reading between the lines of what the OP says, it sounds like they're having trouble deciding which hardware setups to target for Off The Shelf (OTS) maps.

If that's true, and obviously this is about 3rd hand at this point, why are they waiting? Release the hardware now, start making a return on the development investment! They'll get people on the first day of sales who will snap up AP hardware with no maps. Those people will appear moments later at professional tuners and get a Protune.

If it isn't true, then what's going on with the hardware or tuning software that's preventing release?
^^^^^^THANK YOU^^^^^^ Is that you God?????
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