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Old 04-27-2009, 08:17 PM   #1
R & H Garage
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Default KAS OS Stage II '08 WRX

So we finally got a 2008 WRX on our Mustang "Heartbreaker" dyno to tune with Open Source and OpenPort 2.0. The customer had a Cobb AP with a Stage II OTS Map. After we baselined the AP Map, we flashed it back to stock and did another baseline to see where we sat.

The AccessPort delivered 195whp @ 5400rpm and 207wtq @ 4600rpm
The Stock mapping delivered 192whp @ 5300rpm and 203wtq @ 3700rpm
Our Open Source Dyno Tune threw down 214whp @ 4400rpm and 268wtq @ 2600rpm!!

To help the uninitiated decipher the graphs below,
Blue is Torque
Red is Power
Yellow is Boost
Black is Air Fuel Ratio (AFR).

Cobb AP OTS Stage II (Solid Lines) vs. Stock Mapping (Dotted Lines):



And the numbers from the AP:



Stock Mapping numbers:



As you can see, the OTS map actually makes less torque below ~4500 rpm where most people spend their time. The stock mapping also gets the turbo up and running much quicker, with the Cobb OTS map coming on slowly with peak torque much later. Granted the stock mapping is out of it's ideal operational range and the power delivery leaves much to be desired. That's why we need to tune it.


After tuning the car (on original spark plugs), here are the results of our KAS Dyno Tune (Solid Lines) vs. stock (Dotted Lines):



And here are the results of our KAS Dyno Tune (Solid Lines) vs. the Cobb AP OTS Stage II Map (Dotted Lines):



Final Numbers:



As you can see, we made massive gains in torque and power across the board on 92 octane Premium Pump gas and a conservative tune. Compared to the Cobb AP, we gained around 90 ft-lbs of torque at 2600rpm! In fact, the customer called us after a few minutes to tell us that the car felt way faster than just a 19whp gain.

The results of our tune was 214whp @ 4400rpm and 268wtq @ 2600rpm
Again the Cobb only delivered 195whp @ 5400rpm and 207wtq @ 4600rpm
With Stock mapping at 192whp @ 5300 rpm and 203wtq @3700rpm

All in all, we're pretty happy with the results and were quite surprised by how the AP performed compared to the stock mapping.

If you are looking for bang for the buck, come get a dyno tune for only $400 vs. an AP at $695. The results speak for themselves.

-Mike
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:32 PM   #2
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Thats a bunch of torque, wow.
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:43 PM   #3
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I am confused. The cobb ots stage 2 had a 3whp increase from stock wrx? Doesn't make sense that a tbe and stage 2 cobb tune only netted 3whp compared to stock wrx.

Last edited by k04sti; 04-27-2009 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:45 PM   #4
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+1 for the AP being over hyped
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:59 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k04sti View Post
I am confused. The cobb ots stage 2 had a 3whp increase from stock wrx? Doesn't make sense that a tbe and stage 2 cobb tune only netted 3whp compared to stock wrx.
Stock Mapping =! Stock car.

All that was with a tbe...the Cobb tune vs. the stock tune yielded 3whp.
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Old 04-27-2009, 10:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sithspawn View Post
Stock Mapping =! Stock car.

All that was with a tbe...the Cobb tune vs. the stock tune yielded 3whp.
Sigh...... just stop posting.

OP, is the stock mapping stock compared to tbe cobb ap stage 2 map or tbe with stock map compared to a cobb ap map?
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Old 04-27-2009, 10:57 PM   #7
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If you load a file and make a pull before the ECU learns you will not make much power.. Make 2-3 pulls with a OTS map and watch it increase power and tq... You can tell by the way the boost came in on the OTS COBB mapping that the car was not given the chance to learn, or even get some heat in the header.
Your faster spool and more TQ are probably from having run your map in, and most importantly from the 8 more PSI of boost the car is running.
Cobb also provides a very safe base map.

This thread would have been better if that last line was not in it..
"If you are looking for bang for the buck, come get a dyno tune for only $400 vs. an AP at $695. The results speak for themselves."
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:04 PM   #8
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unless you mean the IAM going up to 1, I don't see what learning you could be talking about that would add meaningful power.
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:44 AM   #9
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Nice gains Mike. Definately good bang for the buck! Afraid to get my STi on that Dyno though. I would be very dissapointed
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Old 04-28-2009, 10:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
This thread would have been better if that last line was not in it..
"If you are looking for bang for the buck, come get a dyno tune for only $400 vs. an AP at $695. The results speak for themselves."
+1

You can't just flash a map and then dyno it without the letting the IAM adjust.

If you're trying to promote your tuning you'd be better to remove your reference to Cobb or re-dyno the car once the Cobb map has time to adjust.

We expect you to be able to put down more power than a base map with a custom tune, but at least give it a fair shot.
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Old 04-28-2009, 02:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k04sti View Post
Sigh...... just stop posting.

OP, is the stock mapping stock compared to tbe cobb ap stage 2 map or tbe with stock map compared to a cobb ap map?
Forgive me for responding to your question with my personal account (sithspawn) after hours. All three of the above graphs are with the same modifications (tbe)...just different mapping.
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Old 04-28-2009, 02:32 PM   #12
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but as stated you can't flash it and immediately dyno the car and expect to get max #'s out of it. I think for the sake of your vendor status ( reputation )you need to reword your 1st post OP. those are not accurate results as i gaurantee you that they would be different if you flashed the cobb ots map drove the car for a few miles ( maybe even log it to see where the IAM is at) then dyno it. you'll see different #'s for sure.
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Old 04-28-2009, 03:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
If you load a file and make a pull before the ECU learns you will not make much power.. Make 2-3 pulls with a OTS map and watch it increase power and tq... You can tell by the way the boost came in on the OTS COBB mapping that the car was not given the chance to learn, or even get some heat in the header.
Your faster spool and more TQ are probably from having run your map in, and most importantly from the 8 more PSI of boost the car is running.
Cobb also provides a very safe base map.

This thread would have been better if that last line was not in it..
"If you are looking for bang for the buck, come get a dyno tune for only $400 vs. an AP at $695. The results speak for themselves."
Ok, here are two pulls using the AP. These graphs are from when the customer came in for a baseline prior to deciding to get a tune. After seeing the graphs he decided that he wanted something much better and asked us to tune his 08 WRX. The car was driven with the AP for months before the pulls and we did not reset the ECU at any time before or during his dyno session. The ECU had all the opportunity to learn before this session. As you can see the boost characteristics are the same. I think that the results do in fact speak for themselves.



As you can see, the boost curve is consistent. The turbo doesn't spool any faster between the two and the ECU had plenty of time to "learn". If you look at the stock vs. AP graphs in my original post, you'll notice how quickly the boost comes on with the stock mapping. That has to do with wastegate duty cycles and ramp rates...not heat in the headers or IAM. Of course we are going to run more boost as we are trying to extract more power from the car as a whole. You'll also notice that we tapered the boost down towards redline, because the stock TD04 is not as efficient at higher boost and higher flow rates. While the AP base map is "very safe", it's not worth the $695 IMO. You can argue that the AP has other features that make it worthwhile, but we've only met a handful of people that actually desire those features and far fewer that actually use them.

Ultimately, we are comparing two products: our KAS tune for $400 and the AP OTS Stage II map for $695. Sure, you can get a Protune, but that would cost even more money to hopefully get the same results. By the time you are done getting an AP and a tune you will have over a grand invested!

BTW: Thanks for the interest in our thread!
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Old 04-28-2009, 03:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KitoAutoSport View Post

As you can see, the boost curve is consistent. The turbo doesn't spool any faster between the two and the ECU had plenty of time to "learn". If you look at the stock vs. AP graphs in my original post, you'll notice how quickly the boost comes on with the stock mapping. That has to do with wastegate duty cycles and ramp rates...not heat in the headers or IAM. Of course we are going to run more boost as we are trying to extract more power from the car as a whole. You'll also notice that we tapered the boost down towards redline, because the stock TD04 is not as efficient at higher boost and higher flow rates. While the AP base map is "very safe", it's not worth the $695 IMO. You can argue that the AP has other features that make it worthwhile, but we've only met a handful of people that actually desire those features and far fewer that actually use them.

Ultimately, we are comparing two products: our KAS tune for $400 and the AP OTS Stage II map for $695. Sure, you can get a Protune, but that would cost even more money to hopefully get the same results. By the time you are done getting an AP and a tune you will have over a grand invested!

BTW: Thanks for the interest in our thread!
It was actually a pretty interesting read and thread, all was well until the last line like I stated.
The Cobb AP has TONS of features like you stated.. Some will like to use them and some wont... Are you comparing 2 products?? Not really the Cobb AP for 695 is a lot more then just a map. You get a code reader, map changes, logging tool, 1/4mile, 0-60... Like I said, a lot of extra cool features and an actual PRODUCT.
You are not offering a product.. Your offering a service. The Cobb AP is an actual product for 695. You are offering a Tune for 400 bucks.



Junior

Last edited by Junior2JZ; 04-28-2009 at 05:09 PM. Reason: ........
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Old 04-28-2009, 05:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
It was actually a pretty interesting read and thread, all was well until the last line like I stated.
The Cobb AP has TONS of features like you stated.. Some will like to use them and some wont... Are you comparing 2 products?? Not really the Cobb AP for 695 is a lot more then just a map. You get a code reader, map changes, logging tool, 1/4mile, 0-60... Like I said, a lot of extra cool features and an actual PRODUCT.
You are not offering a product.. Your offering a service. The Cobb AP is an actual product for 695. You are offering a Tune for 400 bucks.

BTW 192whp on a Mustang is not so much heart breaking... That is higher then some baselines on DynoJets

Junior
True, our tune is not a tangible item you can put in your glovebox. Mainly we are comparing performance for the dollar spent. Lets be honest, most people buy the AP as a performance modification and were it not for the maps, the AP wouldn't quite have the appeal that it does.

In regards to our dyno numbers, a bone stock '08 WRX puts down 170whp and 198wtq. See graph below along with a comparison to our KAS tune.






BTW Junior, if ever you find yourself in Seattle, feel free to swing by and we can grab some lunch and talk shop.
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Old 04-28-2009, 05:47 PM   #16
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Nice gains Mike. Definately good bang for the buck! Afraid to get my STi on that Dyno though. I would be very dissapointed
Hey Brian! Don't be scared! lol Just so you know, stock 04-07 STi's put down ~230whp and ~230wtq on our dyno. Given the torque and power we've seen the vf-48 put out, I'd say you would end up with a little more than that bone stock. Anyway, are you coming to Mill Creek tonight?

-Mike
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Old 04-28-2009, 07:13 PM   #17
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KAS FTW!!!

AP FTL, and an empty pocket book.
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Old 04-28-2009, 08:49 PM   #18
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When testing Cobb's OTS maps on an 08 WRX, I found similar results in that the Cobb map showed almost no gains at all over stock. That being said, the Cobb map did run safer and smoother with less knock than the stock map. Of course with a custom tune, we were able to extract a lot more power.

For reference, this was a bone stock 08 WRX on California 91 Octane.
Stock - 177whp / 203ft-lbs
Cobb OTS Stage 1 ACN - 178whp / 209ft-lbs.

After we added a TBE, MBC, and custom tune we got this particular car to 226whp/303ft-lbs. on a nice cool night

Thanks
-- Ed
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Old 04-28-2009, 09:52 PM   #19
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The only codes the Cobb AccessPort ever read was the one it caused [b]OVER BOOST[b]. Now go ahead and believe the quarter mile time and 0-60 time that it gives you. I prefer the track. Junior2JZ should we assume that your 10.7@128 was from what the AccessPort told you. Just kidding man I saw your video.

Skylar- Owner of the tuned 08 wrx
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Old 04-28-2009, 10:32 PM   #20
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okay yeah i can see how 400$ just for some dyno time and a tune is worth more than .... actually no I can't... If i want to read my map, codes, log, anything I have to own a laptop and the 2.0 cable, which is way more than the cost in hardware difference.

You're being disingenuous at best to suggest that your OS tune is the reason for the power, the reason for the power is the "pro tune" - I will admit that the AP is a tad more expensive, but I use my AP every day, I data log with it at the track, I switch maps between e85 and 93 and race quite frequently....

AP = 695 (they can be had for much less, in fact when on sale I got mine for 560 shipped)

pro tune = 3-400$ (this cost is the same no matter WHAT hardware you choose

tactrix cable = 190$

if all you assume the cost of the tactrix cable you are saving someone 400$ at best, but if they don't own a laptop it's now MORE expensive to to go open source, unless you are okay with having a one time reflash and never being able to log, open, edit, read your map. I personally am not okay with it...

-Z
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zmw View Post
okay yeah i can see how 400$ just for some dyno time and a tune is worth more than .... actually no I can't... If i want to read my map, codes, log, anything I have to own a laptop and the 2.0 cable, which is way more than the cost in hardware difference.

You're being disingenuous at best to suggest that your OS tune is the reason for the power, the reason for the power is the "pro tune" - I will admit that the AP is a tad more expensive, but I use my AP every day, I data log with it at the track, I switch maps between e85 and 93 and race quite frequently....

AP = 695 (they can be had for much less, in fact when on sale I got mine for 560 shipped)

pro tune = 3-400$ (this cost is the same no matter WHAT hardware you choose

tactrix cable = 190$

if all you assume the cost of the tactrix cable you are saving someone 400$ at best, but if they don't own a laptop it's now MORE expensive to to go open source, unless you are okay with having a one time reflash and never being able to log, open, edit, read your map. I personally am not okay with it...

-Z
Well, you can't read, edit, or really log your car with an AP, either. You'd need a laptop in either case.

I think the OP's point was that most people do not use these features. Most people flash a basemap or get a protune, and place the AP in their closet, so in this case, you can save that $700 with an open source tune from this shop.

Of course, if you want those features or have a tuner who tunes with the Cobb software, it may certainly be worth it to you to purchase the AP.
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Old 04-29-2009, 01:52 AM   #22
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Well, you can't read, edit, or really log your car with an AP, either. You'd need a laptop in either case.

I think the OP's point was that most people do not use these features. Most people flash a basemap or get a protune, and place the AP in their closet, so in this case, you can save that $700 with an open source tune from this shop.

Of course, if you want those features or have a tuner who tunes with the Cobb software, it may certainly be worth it to you to purchase the AP.
simply not true - I can read, edit, modify, log, clear codes, change maps etc all w/o a laptop - yes I have to have some type of PC at some point to use race tuner, and view my logs.

My personal opinion here is that open source provides a cheap alternative if you are the set it and forget it kind of person - I'm fine what that, but it's not for me, and the savings is marginal - it'd be one thing if you are saving the 400$ on tuning too, but you aren't.
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:19 AM   #23
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I don't know why people bother comparing the Cobb shelf maps to custom tunes. The shelf maps are not meant to make ultimate power. I wonder if this guy is a Cobb vendor also? Anyways, not a fair comparo. Would it be fair for Cobb to post that Kito Auto is a incompetent shop because Kito doesn't provide a piece of handheld hardware with their tune?

Is it even safe to run the stock map with a stage 2 hardware setup?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
It was actually a pretty interesting read and thread, all was well until the last line like I stated.
The Cobb AP has TONS of features like you stated.. Some will like to use them and some wont... Are you comparing 2 products?? Not really the Cobb AP for 695 is a lot more then just a map. You get a code reader, map changes, logging tool, 1/4mile, 0-60... Like I said, a lot of extra cool features and an actual PRODUCT.
You are not offering a product.. Your offering a service. The Cobb AP is an actual product for 695. You are offering a Tune for 400 bucks.



Junior
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:35 AM   #24
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I would def (and did) pay the 200 dollar difference for the map switching/storage and logging features alone. You also get a shift light, fuel econ monitor, "dyno" and 1/4 mile timer, code reader, etc etc..

Anyway, Kito's last statement is like saying:
You should come to me because I can give you top quality wine at a lower price.

But what you're getting is top quality wine in a paper cup that you drink in the street standing up. You don't have the bells and whistles of the Cobb and you may want to pay the extra few dollars to sit down and drink your wine from a proper glass and have the opportunity to order food also. =P

Anyway, I thought this was proven power bragging, not the vendor sales forum. Also, the gains aren't that much to brag about, sorry.


Quote:
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simply not true - I can read, edit, modify, log, clear codes, change maps etc all w/o a laptop - yes I have to have some type of PC at some point to use race tuner, and view my logs.

My personal opinion here is that open source provides a cheap alternative if you are the set it and forget it kind of person - I'm fine what that, but it's not for me, and the savings is marginal - it'd be one thing if you are saving the 400$ on tuning too, but you aren't.

Last edited by Zumble; 04-29-2009 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 04-29-2009, 07:23 PM   #25
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Ahem. Well, you guys know you can get a brand new Dell Inspiron 15" Laptop for $399 right? Plus a Tactrix cable for $169 + $9 flash adapter, you are looking at a wallet draining $577 hardware setup that allows you to log, edit, flash, and store as many maps as your hard drive can take. Then, after a day of tracking your car, you can go to your local Starbucks, hop on their WiFi with said laptop, surf Nasioc and review your logs all while drinking some overpriced beverage that will probably be in a paper cup.
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