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Old 04-28-2009, 06:58 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default Scoop! Cadillac Epsilon Sedan Will Slot Below CTS




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General Motors CEO and President Fritz Henderson admitted in his reorganization press conference Monday morning that his company doesn't have the money to make Cadillac a competitive luxury brand in Europe. The 4.5L turbodiesel V-8, the 2.9L VM Motori turbodiesel V-6 and the Alpha 3 Series-fighter platform all are on hold, and are unlikely to be revived while GM tries to avoid bankruptcy. The Standard of the World will have to get by with the North American markets and parts of Asia, Eastern Europe and the Middle East, for now.


Cadillac needs sedans beyond the CTS, though, and Motor Trend has learned that GM will supply it with an Epsilon front-drive and AWD sedan, codenamed GM 166, slotting between the 2010 Buick LaCrosse and the rear-drive CTS.

Since the DT7 -- the planned RWD combo of the STS and DTS -- also is on-hold and likely to be killed, the implications are that the next-generation CTS would grow in size and fill both CTS and DT7 slots. GM 166 will be the largest car on the Epsilon II platform, which includes the LaCrosse and Opel Insignia.

Gen I Epsilons include everything from the Chevy Malibu, Pontiac G6 and Saturn Aura to the Saab 9-3 and Cadillac BLS. (NOTE: The European-market BLS is pictured at top)

The Caddy 166 is being scheduled for calendar year '11 as a 2012 model, and will continue evolution of the brand's design language, jumpstarted with the 2008 CTS. Early designs have been described as "spectacular," with particular attention to interior detail and exterior jewelry.

As for product placement, pricing presumably would start where the '10 Buick LaCrosse leaves off. Unlike previous GM models sharing platforms, Buick has equipped the LaCrosse so it actually is priced well above Chevy's Epsilon, the Malibu, and the lame duck Pontiac G6 and Saturn Aura. Base pricing for the '10 LaCrosse ranges from $27,835 to $33,765.

The 166 should start at $34,000-$35,000 in '09 dollars, and compete directly with the front-drive Lexus ES 350. This also should push up pricing on the CTS -- that car is still available with the 263-horsepower 3.6L V-6 without gas direct-injection, simply to provide a sub-$40k price point model. The next CTS should be a 2013 model, although virtually all GM projects have been slipping under current financial problems.

Bad news is that with advent of the 166, the Alpha rear-drive compact Cadillac is probably dead. To make a viable business case, GM needed to use the RWD platform in at least one higher-volume brand, and is rumored to have considered everything from small Chevy, Pontiac or Buick sedans, as well as a smaller next-generation Camaro or possibly a new Pontiac Firebird Trans Am.

Pontiac has been scratched from GM's future lineup, and the Alpha platform needed a good deal of high-strength steel to be lightweight, and that proved too expensive for a Chevrolet.

Cadillac's '09 lineup: CTS sedan, DTS, STS, XLR, Sigma SRX, GMT 900 Escalade/ESV/EXT

How Cadillac's '10s lineup looked a year ago: Alpha rear-drive sedan and coupe, CTS sedan/coupe/wagon, DT7 large rear-drive car, "super-Theta" SRX, Lambda-based Escalade.

How Cadillac's '10s lineup looks now: 166 Epsilon sedan, CTS sedan/coupe/wagon, "super-Theta" SRX, Lambda-based Escalade, Converj.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/a...cts/index.html
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Old 04-28-2009, 07:16 AM   #2
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and it will be called... the Cimmaron.
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Old 04-28-2009, 09:25 AM   #3
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hmmm....fail
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Old 04-28-2009, 09:33 AM   #4
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Now you know why GM is in such deep Sh#%!!!

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Old 04-28-2009, 11:11 AM   #5
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also, good luck getting the converj be in the 2010 lineup.
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:29 AM   #6
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Why can't they change the sheetmetal of the Holden Statesman and call it a new DTS?
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:23 PM   #7
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...Epsilon front-drive and AWD sedan...
There's your problem!

It really makes me that they have spent soo much time, effort and money in re-establishing Cadillac as a true player in the luxury game and here they are again - ready to blow it by using a FWD platform.
I have no doubts that it will look fantastic... the CTS is awesome and so is every Cadillac concept car in recent memory.
I have no doubts that the interior will be great, for the same reasons.
I have no doubts that the quality will also be very competitive.
... so why ruin a potentially great car by giving it wrong-wheel drive?

And I am one of those that things that FWD is perfectly fine for 95% of the situations out there, but this new car was supposed to be a 3-series fighter. That's not gonna happen if it is even offered in FWD. It will end up being some lame-duck Toyota Camry... opps I mean, Lexus ES-fighter.

The best I can hope for is it having AWD standard (a la Audi).


I am also disappointed that GM even thought about making the next-gen Camaro a smaller car (and thus be able to share it's platform with this new small Caddy), but they supposedly nixed that.
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Old 04-28-2009, 02:41 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Hazdaz View Post
There's your problem!

It really makes me that they have spent soo much time, effort and money in re-establishing Cadillac as a true player in the luxury game and here they are again - ready to blow it by using a FWD platform.

The best I can hope for is it having AWD standard (a la Audi).
But the Audi A4 this competes against doesn't have AWD standard; base model is FWD. Only difference is that in an Audi A4 thread we don't have a bunch of retards saying "Fail!" because GM doesn't own them.
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Old 04-28-2009, 04:03 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Skunkers View Post
But the Audi A4 this competes against doesn't have AWD standard; base model is FWD. Only difference is that in an Audi A4 thread we don't have a bunch of retards saying "Fail!" because GM doesn't own them.
Like I said, I would usually be on the other side of this debate saying that FWD is "good enough" for like 95% of the buyers out there, but Cadillac isn't trying to aim at the more boring side of the luxury market (i.e. Lexus), thats what Buick would be much better for. They are trying to go after the BMW's of the world and in that segment it's RWD - or AWD.

And unlike Audi, Cadillac is still trying to prove themselves to luxury buyers... you don't do that by 1/2-assing it with a FWD platform as your first real entry into the 3-series/C-class war.

I think it would be a Cimmaron-level mistake if this baby Cadillac is even available with FWD when the weight/cost penalty of AWD shouldn't be that much.

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Old 04-28-2009, 05:51 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Hazdaz View Post
Like I said, I would usually be on the other side of this debate saying that FWD is "good enough" for like 95% of the buyers out there, but Cadillac isn't trying to aim at the more boring side of the luxury market (i.e. Lexus), thats what Buick would be much better for. They are trying to go after the BMW's of the world and in that segment it's RWD - or AWD.

And unlike Audi, Cadillac is still trying to prove themselves to luxury buyers... you don't do that by 1/2-assing it with a FWD platform as your first real entry into the 3-series/C-class war.

I think it would be a Cimmaron-level mistake if this baby Cadillac is even available with FWD when the weight/cost penalty of AWD shouldn't be that much.
I know what you're saying, but I don't really agree. The segment you're talking about isn't really the 3-series/C-class segment, it's the A4/TL(or TSX)/3-series/C-class segment. BMW and MB go with RWD platforms, Acura and Audi go with FWD platforms with available AWD. Ultimately, GM faces a problem here; they don't have a small RWD platform anymore. Kappa is canceled, and Zeta is too large and I don't think they're planning to keep building car on it either. Since FWD/AWD platforms work just as well when done right, they have a platform design they can use, and it will likely be cheaper for them and again allow them to undercut their competition with it like they do with the CTS, I don't see a problem. That doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer a RWD platform, but there's no reason to auto-fail them for using a FWD one.
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Old 04-28-2009, 06:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunkers View Post
But the Audi A4 this competes against doesn't have AWD standard; base model is FWD. Only difference is that in an Audi A4 thread we don't have a bunch of retards saying "Fail!" because GM doesn't own them.
The difference is Audi uses longitudinal engines, so you can use a proper AWD system and larger engines.

I think the bigger problem is Caddillac's confused brand strategy. They don't really know whether they're chasing BMW's M cars or Lexus FWD yawnmobiles and whether their customers are driving enthusiasts, rappers or pensioners in Florida.
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Old 04-28-2009, 07:15 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by bal00 View Post
The difference is Audi uses longitudinal engines, so you can use a proper AWD system and larger engines.

I think the bigger problem is Caddillac's confused brand strategy. They don't really know whether they're chasing BMW's M cars or Lexus FWD yawnmobiles and whether their customers are driving enthusiasts, rappers or pensioners in Florida.
Their customers are driving enthusiasts, rappers, AND pensioners in Florida.
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Old 04-28-2009, 07:31 PM   #13
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The 166 should start at $34,000-$35,000 in '09 dollars, and compete directly with the front-drive Lexus ES 350
Do they not understand that they should be designing a car to compete with the 3, IS, A4 in size and performance? Not a third midsize?
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