Tire Dilema: Street Tires or Track tire???

[scottjua]

Ok, a short question, but I'm sure I'll get a some good input:

I currently have been running a set of 245/40/17 Advan Neova AD07s for the past couple of years of track driving. They are an amazing street tire, that I've so far loved on the track. The current set is just about on their last leg and needs to be replaced soon.

Overall I love their progressive nature and grip once some heat is put into them.

That said, I have two bran new ones sitting here, although I need to buy two more new ones to complete the set before they get discontinued and are impossible to find.

So my question is:

Do I buy two more new AD07s, or sell the two I have and move up to a more dedicated track tire? Nitto NT01, Hoosiers, etc.????

Any others you guys like?

My comfort level on track is pretty good, and I've been doing HPDE for a number of years, although just always run street tires.

This set is ONLY used for the track, I already have another set of wheels/tires for daily driving.

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[TubeDriver]

Originally Posted by scottjua

Ok, a short question, but I'm sure I'll get a some good input:

I currently have been running a set of 245/40/17 Advan Neova AD07s for the past couple of years of track driving. They are an amazing street tire, that I've so far loved on the track. The current set is just about on their last leg and needs to be replaced soon.

Overall I love their progressive nature and grip once some heat is put into them.

That said, I have two bran new ones sitting here, although I need to buy two more new ones to complete the set before they get discontinued and are impossible to find.

So my question is:

Do I buy two more new AD07s, or sell the two I have and move up to a more dedicated track tire? Nitto NT01, Hoosiers, etc.????

Any others you guys like?

My comfort level on track is pretty good, and I've been doing HPDE for a number of years, although just always run street tires.

Why not save the street tires for the street and get a second set of wheels/tires (either street or r-comps) for the track? It is what most people end up doing.

As for whether you should get r-comps or summer street tires, r-comps are more fun and faster but there is no requirement to use them for HPDE. The latest generation of summer street tires are about 85% of the performance of an RA-1/888 type r-comp.

Running Hoosiers or a similar tire does not make much sense for a DE'er who tracks a couple times a year. Trying a 888/NT-01R type tire would probably be your next step. Most people find the additional grip addicting.

[scottjua]

Sorry I should have clarified in my original post... I already have a dedicated wheel/tire combo for the street/daily driving. Right now I have a second set of BBS and RE070s for daily driving.

The original post is just concerning the set I use for track only. Granted, I drive from home to the track (usually mounting the Advan AD07s/wheels the day before heading to the track), I'm not opposed to transporting and mounting the track wheels/tires at the track on the day of.

I'm wondering as like you said, I only make it out 5-7 times a year now, what tires would not simply age faster than I can use them, yet still be the best bang for my buck for just track driving?

[TubeDriver]

Originally Posted by scottjua

Sorry I should have clarified in my original post... I already have a dedicated wheel/tire combo for the street/daily driving. Right now I have a second set of BBS and RE070s for daily driving.

The original post is just concerning the set I use for track only. Granted, I drive from home to the track (usually mounting the Advan AD07s/wheels the day before heading to the track), I'm not opposed to transporting and mounting the track wheels/tires at the track on the day of.

I'm wondering as like you said, I only make it out 5-7 times a year now, what tires would not simply age faster than I can use them, yet still be the best bang for my buck for just track driving?

Unless you have a ton of neg camber in front (-3 or more) you will probably cord the outside edge of most any tire with 5-7 HPDEs anyway so I would not worry to much about the tire aging. You could still drive to the track and back with 888/RA-1 type r-comps.

[scottjua]

Odd that you say that... I've run the advans pretty hard and they've actually worn very evenly over time. With my alignment (-1.7F, -1.5 rear) I've worn the inside shoulder more than anything, and recently had them flipped on the rims, since we normally run one direction on the track more than the other which has of course worn one side more than the other.

[dunk]

Originally Posted by scottjua

Odd that you say that... I've run the advans pretty hard and they've actually worn very evenly over time. With my alignment (-1.7F, -1.5 rear) I've worn the inside shoulder more than anything, and recently had them flipped on the rims, since we normally run one direction on the track more than the other which has of course worn one side more than the other.

A lot of race tires have a pretty square shoulder. It makes for good response, however is pretty unforgiving of insufficient negative camber.

-Duncan

[MasterKwan]

I think it's pointless to run R-comps at DE's. You learn more with the street tires. The wear and tear on the wheel bearings and suspension is lower too. It tickles me to outrun car's with R-comps at the DE's with my street tires. It means I've learned something about driving (though I still have far to go).

I run r-comps for time attacks and anything competitive, not for just practicing on the track.

In my mind, if you're wearing the inside edge, you have a toe problem. Even at -2.5 in the front, I still get more outside shoulder wear than I like.

[REX8]

How many days are you getting out of the Advans?

I'd guess is not that much different then a set of 048's or RA1's.

[misterwaterfallin]

Originally Posted by MasterKwan

I think it's pointless to run R-comps at DE's. You learn more with the street tires. The wear and tear on the wheel bearings and suspension is lower too. It tickles me to outrun car's with R-comps at the DE's with my street tires. It means I've learned something about driving (though I still have far to go).

I run r-comps for time attacks and anything competitive, not for just practicing on the track.

In my mind, if you're wearing the inside edge, you have a toe problem. Even at -2.5 in the front, I still get more outside shoulder wear than I like.

practice what you race on. If you're driving the same car for competition and not, why would you practice with equipment other than you race with? Its not like runners using lighter shoes for races.

Simply put you're not getting all that you could out of your practice days if you're using subpar equipment.

[STi-MAN]

Originally Posted by misterwaterfallin

practice what you race on. If you're driving the same car for competition and not, why would you practice with equipment other than you race with? Its not like runners using lighter shoes for races.

Simply put you're not getting all that you could out of your practice days if you're using subpar equipment.

there is this idea.. and the idea that you'll learn more on a tire that doesnt have as much grip.. you'd be surprised how an R comp tire can hide/mask bad driving.

[CPM]

If you are happy on street tires and only go to the track 10 times or less per year, stick with the street tires. R-comps will last half as long as your street tires and cost you more money. You will need to get a more aggressive alignment with a lot more camber to optimize the use of an R-comp - this will reduce the life of your tires when you are on the street. The other problem is that once you take a hit of the go-fast crack pipe it can be hard to put it down. You'll be buying new R-comps every 3-4 track days, then you'll move to Hoosiers and use those for 12 heat cycles before you throw them out, next thing you know you're on slicks that last you 4 heat cycles and complaining about how you can't afford to do track days anymore. At a DE does it really matter if you're 1-2 seconds faster per lap than you would have been on street tires?

[REX8]

Originally Posted by STi-MAN

there is this idea.. and the idea that you'll learn more on a tire that doesnt have as much grip.. you'd be surprised how an R comp tire can hide/mask bad driving.

He's not really talking about novices though. More saying that race guys (while sure, still learning), may benefit from practicing what they race on.

As far as "hiding" bad driving goes. The R's we're talking about really behave like a street tire as far as breakaway, recovery, etc. With the exception of some higher cornering speeds, no reason they should be hindering your learning curve. Well, I guess that depends somewhat on the other cars around you too.

[REX8]

Originally Posted by CPM

If you are happy on street tires and only go to the track 10 times or less per year, stick with the street tires. R-comps will last half as long as your street tires and cost you more money. You will need to get a more aggressive alignment with a lot more camber to optimize the use of an R-comp - this will reduce the life of your tires when you are on the street. The other problem is that once you take a hit of the go-fast crack pipe it can be hard to put it down. You'll be buying new R-comps every 3-4 track days, then you'll move to Hoosiers and use those for 12 heat cycles before you throw them out, next thing you know you're on slicks that last you 4 heat cycles and complaining about how you can't afford to do track days anymore. At a DE does it really matter if you're 1-2 seconds faster per lap than you would have been on street tires?

A set of RA1's "should" last him a season or so, maybe 8 events with a proper alignment etc.

I wonder how much a MAX performance summer, like the advans really differs. Mot realyl meant for those temps and such.

[JoBoo]

just run your 070s on the track, and use the advans for street driving. there probably no worse than the 070s if it rains. or find some other takeoffs..

[REX8]

Originally Posted by JoBoo

just run your 070s on the track, and use the advans for street driving. there probably no worse than the 070s if it rains. or find some other takeoffs..

070's don't exactly like heat...

[JoBoo]

Originally Posted by REX8

070's don't exactly like heat...

yeah, I know. sounds like the guy is looking for the cheap answer tho. otherwise he'd be on R's.

btw, the nt01s will probably last you the longest if you cant get ra1s. or actually the hard compound of the A032s will go pretty far too.

as you get into this crazy addiction, tires are consumables just like everything else in the car. just pick something that you can stick with for a while and not worry about changing all the time.

[TubeDriver]

Originally Posted by MasterKwan

In my mind, if you're wearing the inside edge, you have a toe problem. Even at -2.5 in the front, I still get more outside shoulder wear than I like.

^^^^^^^^ I agree. You either need to start cornering harder or get your toe checked out. I ALWAYS cord the outside edge of my tires and that is with between -2.5 front and ~-3 rear camber. i have never worn out the inside edge of a tire and that includes sets of RA-1s that I used as summer street tires (also used on the track).

[CPM]

Originally Posted by REX8

A set of RA1's "should" last him a season or so, maybe 8 events with a proper alignment etc.

I wonder how much a MAX performance summer, like the advans really differs. Mot realyl meant for those temps and such.

RA1's have been discontinued and their replacement, the R888, last half as long. I have raced on RA1's for the last 3 years and I get an average of 25 heat cycles out of them (on a 2600 pound car w/ driver), I have to rotate the tires and sometimes flip the tire on the rim to do so. At 4-5 sessions per day you are looking at 5-6 days of use before they are showing the cords. The guys I race against throw them out after 2 weekends, but I have a smaller budget so I run them until they are dead. The NT01's have similar performance and life to the RA1 and are still available. I haven't run the Advans but I would expect the life to be a lot longer than that. A proper alignment for R-comps will have too much camber for the street and will wear out the inside edges of your street tires prematurely. So you will spend more money on R-comps for the track, and more money replacing your street tires more frequently. In my opinion if you aren't racing competitively where tenths of a second count and are happy running street tires, you should keep running them.

[REX8]

Originally Posted by CPM

RA1's have been discontinued and their replacement, the R888, last half as long. I have raced on RA1's for the last 3 years and I get an average of 25 heat cycles out of them (on a 2600 pound car w/ driver), I have to rotate the tires and sometimes flip the tire on the rim to do so. At 4-5 sessions per day you are looking at 5-6 days of use before they are showing the cords. The guys I race against throw them out after 2 weekends, but I have a smaller budget so I run them until they are dead. The NT01's have similar performance and life to the RA1 and are still available. I haven't run the Advans but I would expect the life to be a lot longer than that. A proper alignment for R-comps will have too much camber for the street and will wear out the inside edges of your street tires prematurely. So you will spend more money on R-comps for the track, and more money replacing your street tires more frequently. In my opinion if you aren't racing competitively where tenths of a second count and are happy running street tires, you should keep running them.

Just to hit on a couple things you say. He's not racing. RA1s/888s/048s/etc. will last much more than 5-6 days starting at full depth. Much more.

You haven't run ST tires on the track, so perhaps you weren't getting at my point. They aren't really happy at those high temps, and therefore wear tends to be much much more than you think. In some instances, being a street tire can hurt you in teh wear department on the track. For instance, I got 10 days out of 215's before they were done, yet I can get 8-10 out of a set of RA1's.

You also assumed he wasn't running camber plates, and could pull his camber in and out at the track. Moreover, depending on how it's street driven 2.5-3" of negative camber will only wear insides slightly if not pushed hard in daily driving. -2.5 for the street is not a big deal at all in the inside wear department.

Again, not saying he shouldn't run street tires. And no one is saying that running R's, just by virtue of their cost, isn't more expensive. I'm just pointing out that street tires don't last as long as you think they would in lapping sessions, and further, that Toyos and the like generally last much longer for DE guys than they do for race guys such as yourself.

[FuJi K]

I personally like to really play with street tires to their limits of everything from sliding, trail braking, to get the hang and predictability of them before having fun with track tires. Track tires for chasing fast cars down.

[scottjua]

Originally Posted by MasterKwan

I think it's pointless to run R-comps at DE's. You learn more with the street tires. The wear and tear on the wheel bearings and suspension is lower too. It tickles me to outrun car's with R-comps at the DE's with my street tires. It means I've learned something about driving (though I still have far to go).

I run r-comps for time attacks and anything competitive, not for just practicing on the track.

In my mind, if you're wearing the inside edge, you have a toe problem. Even at -2.5 in the front, I still get more outside shoulder wear than I like.

I didn't think about the extra grip being an issue with wear on the hub/bearings, but I did consider the grip level effecting the braking, which I already am having trouble with cooling.

As for the wearing the inside edge, this is mainly on one side, due to the predominant direction we run both tracks here. We normally run CCW, with maybe 1-2 events a year being CW, so I have had a slight bias to wearing one inside should more over time. Granted I've been running on the track with street tires since tracking my WRX wagon. So, for years just street tires.

Originally Posted by REX8

How many days are you getting out of the Advans?

I'd guess is not that much different then a set of 048's or RA1's.

The AD07s have lasted being driven on the street for a number of miles, and then back in 07 I switched them to 100% track only tires. So They've lasted this long, and now have about 1-2/32nds of tread left overall.

Originally Posted by CPM

If you are happy on street tires and only go to the track 10 times or less per year, stick with the street tires. R-comps will last half as long as your street tires and cost you more money. You will need to get a more aggressive alignment with a lot more camber to optimize the use of an R-comp - this will reduce the life of your tires when you are on the street. The other problem is that once you take a hit of the go-fast crack pipe it can be hard to put it down. You'll be buying new R-comps every 3-4 track days, then you'll move to Hoosiers and use those for 12 heat cycles before you throw them out, next thing you know you're on slicks that last you 4 heat cycles and complaining about how you can't afford to do track days anymore. At a DE does it really matter if you're 1-2 seconds faster per lap than you would have been on street tires?

Exactly what I'm looking for on input. I've been trying to balance the car as a regular guy daily driver that can be driven on the track as much as possible without crossing over to SERIOUS track car.... for now. I want things to last as long as possible, yet get the most enjoyment out of it all.

Right now, there's no motivation to get more speed other than to see if I can do it and where I can improve, or what I'm missing out on. I'm consistent with lap times, and since the tires are about dead, I've been curious to see if there's a whole new world that would open up with a different compound.

Originally Posted by JoBoo

just run your 070s on the track, and use the advans for street driving. there probably no worse than the 070s if it rains. or find some other takeoffs..

The RE070s are ok on the track, but I definitely feel the difference between the two. The AD07s can definitely handle the heat better, and are much much better in the rain. They retain heat and grip better in the rain on the track than the RE070s.

Originally Posted by JoBoo

yeah, I know. sounds like the guy is looking for the cheap answer tho. otherwise he'd be on R's.

btw, the nt01s will probably last you the longest if you cant get ra1s. or actually the hard compound of the A032s will go pretty far too.

as you get into this crazy addiction, tires are consumables just like everything else in the car. just pick something that you can stick with for a while and not worry about changing all the time.

Exactly, since I have never run a more track focused tire, and hadn't though about it, I never read or bothered the learn much about until now. Kind of like power modifications, until recently I hadn't considered doing anything to the car to increase power so didn't dedicate my time to learn about the tuning side until it was necessary.

I want a tire I can run, but not have to replace once a year, due to either wear or the tire just aging faster than I can use them up. The AD07s still feel as sticky today as last year. They're an amazing street tire.

I already got through brake pads every 2-3 days.

Originally Posted by TubeDriver

^^^^^^^^ I agree. You either need to start cornering harder or get your toe checked out. I ALWAYS cord the outside edge of my tires and that is with between -2.5 front and ~-3 rear camber. i have never worn out the inside edge of a tire and that includes sets of RA-1s that I used as summer street tires (also used on the track).

The car's alignment is -1.7F, -1.5R, +5.0 caster, and toe of 1/32. for daily driving the tires wear perfectly even. For track... just about, but I do see wear on track differ depending on how I'm driving.

Perhaps a lot has to do with the track? I try to manage the tires, and get a feel for when I'm pushing them beyond what they want to do. Overall the car is very neutral, and I don't feel that I suffer the severe understeer I feel in other Subie's on the track and street.

again...

Originally Posted by CPM

RA1's have been discontinued and their replacement, the R888, last half as long. I have raced on RA1's for the last 3 years and I get an average of 25 heat cycles out of them (on a 2600 pound car w/ driver), I have to rotate the tires and sometimes flip the tire on the rim to do so. At 4-5 sessions per day you are looking at 5-6 days of use before they are showing the cords. The guys I race against throw them out after 2 weekends, but I have a smaller budget so I run them until they are dead. The NT01's have similar performance and life to the RA1 and are still available. I haven't run the Advans but I would expect the life to be a lot longer than that. A proper alignment for R-comps will have too much camber for the street and will wear out the inside edges of your street tires prematurely. So you will spend more money on R-comps for the track, and more money replacing your street tires more frequently. In my opinion if you aren't racing competitively where tenths of a second count and are happy running street tires, you should keep running them.

Seems like a common thread in this thread. To use the more aggressive compound everyone seems to say I need a more aggressive alignment, which would counter balance the idea of it being street friendly.

I'm also not to the point that I have a roll bar/cage in the car (although have gone down the path to considering it), and I definitely don't think that new track tires every few events would be wife approved at this time.

So for now another set of AD07s sounds like the best option for me at this point, but I still can't help wonder about more grip and what it would be like.

After driving a spec Miata (I know completely different animal) on gumball slicks, I was blown away, so that actually started me down this path of thought.

Hmmm...

in any case Thanks for all the input so far.

For more info on the car: http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-membe...ly-driver.html

[mav1c]

Simply because you're trying to keep the car as DD as possible, stick with the AD07's. Although I will say this... I DD'd my wagon for years, and always had a dedicated set of track tires. The last 1/2 of it's life with me I ran R-comps. RA-1's mostly. My compromise as far as alignment was to run -2 front, -1.5 rear, 0 toe all around. Those were my street settings. At the track I'd push the front camber plates in to get -3 front camber, which gave me about 1/8" toe out. Never had any problems with uneven tire wear on the street or the track. Key was just to rotate regularly. My $.02

[TubeDriver]

Well, I had a track Miata and a MY06 STI so I can add 2 cents.

You will have a hard time indeed getting your STI to turn in or handle like a Miata.

That being said, a more aggressive alignment (=>-3 degrees neg camber in front) and some r-comps will substantially increase turn-in/mid corner/exit speed (thus leading to higher straight line speed as well) and help with tire wear.

The bottom line is simply: do you want to spend more money on r-comps for an increase in corner speed ? This is completely up to you. Nothing wrong with running a street tire at a DE but eventually you might find that you want more grip.

I think the first thing I would try is to simply add more camber (whether you get an addition 2 street tires or a new set of r-comps). -1.7 is just not that much camber, camber plates can allow you to run about ~-3 at the track and then simply adjust them back to the street setting (that you marked with a pen or paint blob). -3 degree of front camber transforms the STI in corners (and REALLY will help with outside edge tire wear).

[CPM]

if you want to try out race tires without spending a lot of money you can pick up used Toyo's and Hoosiers from World Challenge and Koni teams like Bimmerworld and Turner, but remember what I said about the go-fast crack pipe...

[growling_boxer]

Originally Posted by scottjua

I want things to last as long as possible, yet get the most enjoyment out of it all.

this is why I'd recommend sticking with street tires, and the reason I have decided to follow the same path. more grip will help you wear out many other parts of your car more quickly (and not just typical wear items like brakes).