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Old 05-05-2009, 11:47 AM   #1
x-techno-x
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Default Arizona Law: Catless Exhaust. Emission pass? possible?

Hey guys,

I was doing a very quick research on this and i heard from some people that you don't need catted exhaust to pass emission tests... is that true? I wanna swich my up/down-pipe with uncatted ones. Am I gonna face any problems? (and I have a 2007 wrx)
I also heard that I'm not gonna have to take emission tests for another few years... is that right?

Can someone with knowledge just fill me up with info about emission tests? (Arizona only please)
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:00 PM   #2
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Federal Clean Air Act.
"cannot remove a working cat from any vehicle"

Google that... I'm pretty sure it applies to AZ.

As far as what your inspection/emissions requires I don't know.
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:06 PM   #3
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Keep the old stuff in case you need to return to stock...
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:06 PM   #4
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Under 80k miles you are not legally allowed to remove or replace ANY cat on your car with anything but an OEM level cat. This means that yes, going from the oem 2 cat downpipe, to a single high flow cat, is just as illegal as being catless. You dont have to be from AZ, its a federal law.


Emissions tests on modern cars almost never use a sniffer. Its an OBD2 check and visual only. And many places dont look or care, and only go on the OBD2 check. Which means if you get rid of the P0420 code for being catless, you will pass emissions.
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:10 PM   #5
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SWIC son!

Actually, catless exhausts are illegal for road use. This being said, many, many people run them and do just fine. Here's how emission's time will happen:

After four years from date when sold as new, you will need to have emission's testing performed on your car. This means you will need to drive down to a testing center and pay the testing fee. They will take your car and plug it into the OBDII reader and check for engine diagnostic codes or ECU reset codes. If you have none of these, you will be fine and they will send you on your way.

Currently Arizona has no AWD dynos so they cannot smog test your car. At idle, even when catless if you have a decent tune, you will pass any smog test anyway. The people who work at these centers also get paid about minimum wage and couldn't care less about what you've done to the car nor will they have any clue what they are looking for/at. They likely won't pop the hod and look around or look under the car. If you car's lowered, they definately won't do anything.

The important thing is to make sure you have no CEL's or diagnostic codes present. And don't pull in the place with a freshly reset ecu cause they can tell that too. Just get a good opensource tune from MJT (Mark Jones Tuning - Local guy at the meets) and have the codes turned off permanently. Done.

This is how it is now. Since we do everything Cali does, but 5-10 years later, I have a feeling the fun will be coming to an end soon.

Your car's pretty new though so why are you worried about emissions right now?

Also, I have an exhaust in my garage right now for super cheap if you're interested (I got a new exhaust last night) and I found a catless downpipe for sale (megan racing) if you want to buy it too. Let me know and I'll pass the info on to you. We could exchange at the meet of whatever.
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:11 PM   #6
shadowmd
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if you have an 07 wrx, your up-pipe is already cat-less....maybe you already knew that...
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:11 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DustinTarditi View Post
Keep the old stuff in case you need to return to stock...
i do the same thing. it's nice to have them

Last edited by shadowmd; 05-05-2009 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:14 PM   #8
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You could move up to FLagstaff, there's no emissions testing in Coconino county.
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:17 PM   #9
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Yeah, but technically if you drive into a county with emission testing (IE Maricopa or Pima), more than something like 2 days a week, you must have testing performed in that county. I don't know if anyone in the history of Arizona has gotten in trouble for that, but it's the way the law is written.

I think Maricopa and Pima are the only ones requiring testing.
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:46 PM   #10
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Youll pass AZ emissions with cattless pipes. assuming you dont throw any CEL's
Very odd how random people from across the country piped into this one lol
Yes, it is illegal to remove any OEM cats. . .

Countless people do it. Personally i run e85 and even (hypothetically) if i ran cattless i would have less CO emissions than a fully catted car.

AZ emissions is a joke, they dont put you on rollers, rarely if EVER do a visual, and they just plug a OBDII port in and it says PASS or FAIL. and even the end part u can fake if you are opensource lol.

Dont worry too much about it, luckily we dont live in Cali
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defiant Autospeed View Post
Under 80k miles you are not legally allowed to remove or replace ANY cat on your car with anything but an OEM level cat. This means that yes, going from the oem 2 cat downpipe, to a single high flow cat, is just as illegal as being catless. You dont have to be from AZ, its a federal law.


Emissions tests on modern cars almost never use a sniffer. Its an OBD2 check and visual only. And many places dont look or care, and only go on the OBD2 check. Which means if you get rid of the P0420 code for being catless, you will pass emissions.
dont forget, state law can bypass federal law.
And besides, who doesnt like to live dangerously haha
Its not like the FBI is gonna do a hard entry on your house for a emissions law
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChandlerWRX06 View Post
dont forget, state law can bypass federal law.
And besides, who doesnt like to live dangerously haha
Its not like the FBI is gonna do a hard entry on your house for a emissions law
Partially true. Only if the state law is more stringent than the federal law the best I understand it. It is OK for Cali to require only OEM cats can be put on a car, but it would not be ok for AZ to allow no cats at all. I mean they could circumvent federal law, but it would jeopardize the granting of federal highway funds which translate to billions a year per state. This is how the federal government strong arms the states into doing what they want like the 21 year old legal consumption age law.

It's a $10,000 dollar fine to remove an emissions control device under federal law, but I'm not sure who gets called on that if anyone.
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:55 PM   #13
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the owner bites the fine... unless you have a receipt showing a shop did the work.

and us from across the country chimed in cause he originally posted in the Newbie & FAQ forum.

state and federal law do a psychotic dance (I'm a law student). Federal trumps in most cases, but states are allowed to make it more strict than federal. There are exceptions for state laws to be the applicable law in unique situations where federal law was not intended to apply... and there are jurisdictional laws about how and where you can get in trouble for violating a specific law.
After a few thousand pages of casebooks I still don't understand it all.
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:56 PM   #14
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^thats sh****TTY

states can get around the whole cat thing by simply NOT having emissions testing.
Sure they still have the federal dont touch your cats thing. . . but no one is enforcing that gheyness
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Old 05-05-2009, 02:09 PM   #15
kpluiten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fetteichhornchen View Post
the owner bites the fine... unless you have a receipt showing a shop did the work.

and us from across the country chimed in cause he originally posted in the Newbie & FAQ forum.

state and federal law do a psychotic dance (I'm a law student). Federal trumps in most cases, but states are allowed to make it more strict than federal. There are exceptions for state laws to be the applicable law in unique situations where federal law was not intended to apply... and there are jurisdictional laws about how and where you can get in trouble for violating a specific law.
After a few thousand pages of casebooks I still don't understand it all.
Good info. I know the owner pays the fine though. I was more getting at the fact that I've never seen anyone charged with that $10,000 dollar fine before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChandlerWRX06 View Post
^thats sh****TTY

states can get around the whole cat thing by simply NOT having emissions testing.
Sure they still have the federal dont touch your cats thing. . . but no one is enforcing that gheyness
See also: Michigan
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Old 05-05-2009, 02:37 PM   #16
ChandlerWRX06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluiten View Post



See also: Michigan
also:
Montana
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Old 05-05-2009, 02:56 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluiten View Post
SWIC son!

Actually, catless exhausts are illegal for road use. This being said, many, many people run them and do just fine. Here's how emission's time will happen:

After four years from date when sold as new, you will need to have emission's testing performed on your car. This means you will need to drive down to a testing center and pay the testing fee. They will take your car and plug it into the OBDII reader and check for engine diagnostic codes or ECU reset codes. If you have none of these, you will be fine and they will send you on your way.

Currently Arizona has no AWD dynos so they cannot smog test your car. At idle, even when catless if you have a decent tune, you will pass any smog test anyway. The people who work at these centers also get paid about minimum wage and couldn't care less about what you've done to the car nor will they have any clue what they are looking for/at. They likely won't pop the hod and look around or look under the car. If you car's lowered, they definately won't do anything.

The important thing is to make sure you have no CEL's or diagnostic codes present. And don't pull in the place with a freshly reset ecu cause they can tell that too. Just get a good opensource tune from MJT (Mark Jones Tuning - Local guy at the meets) and have the codes turned off permanently. Done.

This is how it is now. Since we do everything Cali does, but 5-10 years later, I have a feeling the fun will be coming to an end soon.

Your car's pretty new though so why are you worried about emissions right now?

Also, I have an exhaust in my garage right now for super cheap if you're interested (I got a new exhaust last night) and I found a catless downpipe for sale (megan racing) if you want to buy it too. Let me know and I'll pass the info on to you. We could exchange at the meet of whatever.
I was under the impression that turning sensors off will have a similar affect as reseting the ecu (ie, it will show as "not ready" on the scanner due to some of the sensors being turned off/not ready). I know some states allow you to have 1 or 2 sensor/monitors not ready and still pass. I could be mistaken though.
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Old 05-05-2009, 03:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Cam View Post
I was under the impression that turning sensors off will have a similar affect as reseting the ecu (ie, it will show as "not ready" on the scanner due to some of the sensors being turned off/not ready). I know some states allow you to have 1 or 2 sensor/monitors not ready and still pass. I could be mistaken though.
You're not actually turning the sensors off, the rear O2 still works. You simply do not allow the CELs associated with it to appear. Also, in the Opensource world, you can force the car to pass the readiness test immediately after a reflash/ reset of the ECU!
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Old 05-05-2009, 03:36 PM   #19
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I'm not entirely sure on that, but I was refering to the code that shows that your ECU has been reset recently. In open source you can toggle that code off. I also know that you can reset the limits for the sensors. For example (just making this up), if a sensor has to read 0 to 1 for it to be "good", but with XYZ mod it reads 2 and therefore triggers a code or CEL, you can use open source to change the range for "good" from 0 to 3 or what ever. The sensor is still ready and active, it is just subscribing to different parameters than factory.
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Old 05-05-2009, 05:51 PM   #20
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Whats the max time you can renew your tags for ?
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Old 05-05-2009, 05:56 PM   #21
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Right. I'm pretty sure that when they do the scan they're looking to see that all monitors and/or sensors are ready (I think there's around 7 and I'm not sure what they're exactly for) and to see if your throwing and engine codes. Let's say you ditched your evap system and/or deleted your tgv's for example; since you removed those sytems would their associated sensors need to be turned off? And if so would the emissions tech be able to tell with a scan (ie, would certain sensors or monitors show as not ready)?

Same scenario with cobb ap vs. open source.
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Old 05-05-2009, 06:31 PM   #22
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I'll put my 2 cents in since I just did this a couple of weeks ago: I bought a bugeye with only an up pipe and no down pipe. The previous owner also put in an STi cluster that reads about 10k less than the true mileage. He gave me the stock cluster, but it also read lower a few thousand miles lower since it was no longer in the car. I was worried about going to emissions and getting hammered for no dp and mileage fraud or rollback. I just said screw it since I needed emissions to register the car and took the car as it was, with no dp and the STi cluster in, to emissions and it passed with flying colors I sat in the booth for seriously 3 minutes while they checked my car.
I did my emissions in Mesa if you wanted to go to the same place. It's off of Greenfield, on Brown Road i think it is. Not far from the 60.
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Old 05-05-2009, 06:58 PM   #23
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What do you mean no downpipe? You went through with an open exhaust or do you mean a downpipe with no cats?
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Old 05-05-2009, 07:19 PM   #24
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without cats. sorry for that confusion
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Old 05-05-2009, 07:24 PM   #25
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Thanks for the input guys.
SO All and all, I dont need to worry about running catless exhaust system (of course + opensource tune & reflash).


Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowmd View Post
if you have an 07 wrx, your up-pipe is already cat-less....maybe you already knew that...

I didnt know that. is this true really? So no horsepower gain for going aftermarket catless uppipe? Another thing that was concerning me about the Up Pipe was the fact that I read in some other threads about how the cat in the up pipe damaged the turbo due to flying parts of the cat under too much exhaust gas pressure when tuning the car etc... but if its catless then I shouldnt worry about it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluiten View Post
SWIC son!

Actually, catless exhausts are illegal for road use. This being said, many, many people run them and do just fine. Here's how emission's time will happen:

After four years from date when sold as new, you will need to have emission's testing performed on your car. This means you will need to drive down to a testing center and pay the testing fee. They will take your car and plug it into the OBDII reader and check for engine diagnostic codes or ECU reset codes. If you have none of these, you will be fine and they will send you on your way.

Currently Arizona has no AWD dynos so they cannot smog test your car. At idle, even when catless if you have a decent tune, you will pass any smog test anyway. The people who work at these centers also get paid about minimum wage and couldn't care less about what you've done to the car nor will they have any clue what they are looking for/at. They likely won't pop the hod and look around or look under the car. If you car's lowered, they definately won't do anything.

The important thing is to make sure you have no CEL's or diagnostic codes present. And don't pull in the place with a freshly reset ecu cause they can tell that too. Just get a good opensource tune from MJT (Mark Jones Tuning - Local guy at the meets) and have the codes turned off permanently. Done.

This is how it is now. Since we do everything Cali does, but 5-10 years later, I have a feeling the fun will be coming to an end soon.

Your car's pretty new though so why are you worried about emissions right now?

Also, I have an exhaust in my garage right now for super cheap if you're interested (I got a new exhaust last night) and I found a catless downpipe for sale (megan racing) if you want to buy it too. Let me know and I'll pass the info on to you. We could exchange at the meet of whatever.
Yes pm me about the downpipe you got. After asking around and researching, I was originally thinking about getting a SR*S (eBay) downpipe + megan type 2 black catback also for the rest

Link: http://www.meganracing.com/products/...=793&catid=126

What do you guys think? I like megan's visual and sound. I just need to know how good that combination will be performancewise.

Last edited by x-techno-x; 02-05-2010 at 10:49 AM.
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