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Old 05-05-2009, 02:54 PM   #1
shikataganai
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Default Latest details on the US House's Cash for Clunkers bill

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Pres...orclunkers.pdf + much more hand-wavy coverage in the popular media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the linked pdf from house.gov
May 5, 2009
Fact Sheet: Cash for Clunkers
Committee on Energy and Commerce

Consumers may trade in their old, gas-guzzling vehicles and receive vouchers worth up to $4,500 to help pay for new, more fuel efficient cars and trucks. The program will be authorized for up to one year and provide for approximately one million new car or truck purchases. The agreement divides these new cars and trucks into four categories. Miles per gallon figures below refer to EPA “window sticker” values

Passenger Cars: The old vehicle must get less than 18 mpg. New passenger cars with mileage of at least 22 mpg are eligible for vouchers. If the mileage of the new car is at least 4 mpg higher than the old vehicle, the voucher will be worth $3,500. If the mileage of the new car is at least 10 mpg higher than the old vehicle, the voucher will be worth $4,500.

Light-Duty Trucks: The old vehicle must get less than 18 mpg. New light trucks or SUVs with mileage of at least 18 mpg are eligible for vouchers. If the mileage of the new truck or SUV is at least 2 mpg higher than the old truck, the voucher will be worth $3,500. If the mileage of the new truck or SUV is at least 5 mpg higher than the old truck, the voucher will be worth $4,500.

Large Light-Duty Trucks: New large trucks (pick-up trucks and vans weighing between 6,000 and 8,500 pounds) with mileage of at least 15 mpg are eligible for vouchers. If the mileage of the new truck is at least 1 mpg higher than the old truck, the voucher will be worth $3,500. If the mileage of the new truck is at least 2 mpg higher than the old truck, the voucher will be worth $4,500.

Work Trucks: Under the agreement, consumers can trade in a pre-2002 work truck (defined as a pick-up truck or cargo van weighing from 8,500-10,000 pounds) and receive a voucher worth $3,500 for a new work truck in the same or smaller weight class. There will be a finite number of these vouchers, based on this vehicle class’s market share. There are no EPA mileage measures for these trucks; however, because newer models are cleaner than older models, the age requirement ensures that the trade will improve environmental quality. Consumers can also “trade down,” receiving a $3,500 voucher for trading in an older work truck and purchasing a smaller light-duty truck weighing from 6,000 – 8,500 pounds.
my commentary: i think this is a positive thing. the program has spurred demand in germany, for instance. i also think that it is good that the "buy american" provisions in earlier drafts has been dropped, not only because it is vague and unenforceable but because the question of whether a vehicle is "american" or not doesn't have a straightforward answer (company headquarters location? assembly location? what about vehicles assembled in canada or mexico, still domestic as the technical definition would argue? percentage of "domestic" parts? percentage of "US" parts, as domestic includes canada and mexico?)

i foresee one big criticism: that the mileage improvement for trucks and SUVs is (nominally) minimal. this is true in one sense, but recall that the improvement in absolute fuel consumption, as in gallons per mile, is much greater than the mpg number might suggest. www.mpgillusion.com for the curious. personally, i would like to see a stricter standard for light-duty trucks and SUVs.
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Old 05-05-2009, 03:33 PM   #2
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Which subarus are light-duty trucks/SUV? (if any?)
Quote:
Miles per gallon figures below refer to EPA “window sticker” values"
Street or highway? or is there some combined value that I haven't seen?

I assume that the consumer will negotiate a deal at the dealer then present the voucher? (as to minimize gouging)
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Old 05-05-2009, 03:36 PM   #3
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At least it sounds like they're putting some thought into this.
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Old 05-05-2009, 03:44 PM   #4
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I believe the OB has been classified as a light truck since '05.

SOA Blog?

Peace,

Greg
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Old 05-05-2009, 03:49 PM   #5
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18 mpg?? Once again, it looks like the government is rewarding poor choices. Back in 1998 when I bought my car, I make the responsible decision to purchase a vehicle with high gas milage. Now that I'm ready to buy my next car, I have to pay thousands more than people who've been driving gas guzzlers? I was already feeling duped for making my mortgage payments... now this?

Maybe I should go out tomorrow and buy the cheapest truck/suv clunker I can find and then, when I'm ready to buy my new car, tow it to the dealership as my trade-in! LOL

Last edited by Option; 05-05-2009 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 05-05-2009, 03:52 PM   #6
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HAHAHAHA

you pay your mortgage payments!!!

Dude... seriously get with the bailout wagon
















j/k
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
HAHAHAHA

you pay your mortgage payments!!!

Dude... seriously get with the bailout wagon
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:04 PM   #8
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i think this is a good idea personally will give a lot of dealers buisness
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:32 PM   #9
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They are going by the mpg figure when the car was new?

My 88 accord can't even get 10mpg in the city now, I think the figure was 20+mpg back then (which makes it ineligible). Would be nice if I can trade it in for $4.5k on a 370z anyway

Last edited by bemani; 05-05-2009 at 04:40 PM.
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:42 PM   #10
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Sounds like a good plan, but I don't like it on principle.

I don't like the gov't giving money away for anything. Screw the US automakers who don't know how to run a business and screw the gov't for giving automakers the taxpayers money. Twice. Douchebag politicians aren't going to do anything but make this a bigger mess than it already is.
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:43 PM   #11
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So we are going to spend up to $4.5 billion to destroy vehicles that still have usable miles in them? That make no sense, either financially or environmentaly.
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:46 PM   #12
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Minimum EPA fuel economy for new vehicle is 22MPG combined. Not many fun cars achieve that...

And it's not clear whether this voucher is on top of the trade-in value or in lieu of the trade-in value?
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick View Post
So we are going to spend up to $4.5 billion to destroy vehicles that still have usable miles in them? That make no sense, either financially or environmentaly.
It's been done in Japan for what...ever? Welcome to stagnation, next stop deflation!
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Old 05-05-2009, 07:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E. Nick View Post
Minimum EPA fuel economy for new vehicle is 22MPG combined. Not many fun cars achieve that...

And it's not clear whether this voucher is on top of the trade-in value or in lieu of the trade-in value?
I suspect the Elise can.
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Old 05-05-2009, 07:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Option View Post
Maybe I should go out tomorrow and buy the cheapest truck/suv clunker I can find and then, when I'm ready to buy my new car, tow it to the dealership as my trade-in! LOL
it's not mentioned in the summary pdf that i posted but most proposals include a stipulation that one must have been the registered owner of the running vehicle in question for N months prior to it being eligible for the voucher. otherwise there will be an overnight lower limit of $3499 on the price of used, low mpg vehicles.

to address an earlier question on city vs. hwy mileage: the EPA also publishes a combined figure, e.g. the 50 mpg combined figure for a 2010 Prius (51 city, 48 hwy, 50 combined iirc). i'm quite certain that this combined figure will be the one used for calculations.

when considering whether 18 mpg is a reasonable target for trucks, consider that the benchmark (in terms of sales), a F-150 4x4 with a 6-speed slushbox, gets 14/19/16 combined. 16 fails, and rightfully so if the intent is to reduce fuel consumption, GHG emissions, and smog-forming emissions.
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Old 05-05-2009, 08:45 PM   #16
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Too bad I don't own an E46 M3.
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
it's not mentioned in the summary pdf that i posted but most proposals include a stipulation that one must have been the registered owner of the running vehicle in question for N months prior to it being eligible for the voucher. otherwise there will be an overnight lower limit of $3499 on the price of used, low mpg vehicles.
o rly! i didn't know that . Well I guess on one hand yay for less loopholes. On the other hand who cares its just more money being printed.
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vetteboi88 View Post
Sounds like a good plan, but I don't like it on principle.

I don't like the gov't giving money away for anything. Screw the US automakers who don't know how to run a business and screw the gov't for giving automakers the taxpayers money. Twice. Douchebag politicians aren't going to do anything but make this a bigger mess than it already is.
It only happened once.
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick View Post
So we are going to spend up to $4.5 billion to destroy vehicles that still have usable miles in them? That make no sense, either financially or environmentaly.
The metal can be recycled and the parts be used elsewhere. It's better financially to have money freed up for the consumer to spend elsewhere instead of into their old cars and it's better environmentally for obvious reasons.
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Old 05-06-2009, 01:05 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jejunum View Post
o rly! i didn't know that . Well I guess on one hand yay for less loopholes. On the other hand who cares its just more money being printed.
Here in CA we have to own our working cars for 2 years before we can junk it for $$$ from the state.
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Old 05-06-2009, 03:28 AM   #21
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Lets say my car gets less than 18 mpg currently , but when it was purchased new its rating was 20 mpg, does this voucher not apply to me ?
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Old 05-06-2009, 09:15 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt30 View Post
The metal can be recycled and the parts be used elsewhere. It's better financially to have money freed up for the consumer to spend elsewhere instead of into their old cars and it's better environmentally for obvious reasons.
Sure the metal can be recycled but it takes a huge amount of water, energy, and other resources to make a new car. It is definitely environmentally better to keep old ones running as long as they are reasonably clean (The '95 Legacy I sold last year passed its smog tests well under the legal limits). And this doesn't free up money for consumers; they still have to pay most of the cost of a new car that they would not otherwise have bought. Its almost always cheaper to keep an old car running than to buy a new one.
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Old 05-06-2009, 09:22 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt30 View Post
The metal can be recycled and the parts be used elsewhere. It's better financially to have money freed up for the consumer to spend elsewhere instead of into their old cars and it's better environmentally for obvious reasons.
Sure the usable parts are salvaged, by whom? And who gets the profit for reselling those parts? Sounds like yet another government run/or government manged organization? Please say no. Stop the madness.

What happens to the parts of the car that are not recycled? Answer, it goes into a landfill, which I am not a fan of. This seems very wasteful. We have turned into a disposable society. We have disposable razors, disposable electronics, disposable wipes, disposable brushes, etc. All that ends up in the ground somewhere. Lets not make perfectly good running cars disposable.

Also, if people are spending money on their old cars, are they not still spending money at mechanics shops, parts stores, salvage yards, internet wholesalers, etc. Money is still being spent. I don't see the difference.
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Old 05-06-2009, 09:23 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bemani View Post
Here in CA we have to own our working cars for 2 years before we can junk it for $$$ from the state.
Two whole years huh? Wow.
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Old 05-06-2009, 09:35 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Option View Post
18 mpg?? Once again, it looks like the government is rewarding poor choices. Back in 1998 when I bought my car, I make the responsible decision to purchase a vehicle with high gas milage. Now that I'm ready to buy my next car, I have to pay thousands more than people who've been driving gas guzzlers? I was already feeling duped for making my mortgage payments... now this?

Maybe I should go out tomorrow and buy the cheapest truck/suv clunker I can find and then, when I'm ready to buy my new car, tow it to the dealership as my trade-in! LOL
+12345

What's to stop people from getting a clunker to get a discount?

Again, responsible people get the shaft
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