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Old 05-06-2009, 03:13 PM   #1
Eatoniashoprat
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Default My EJ20g is toast

Hi, so I got my beetle running with the '89 Legacy GT ej20g, 16g, Apexi PFC last weekend. Probably shouldn't have taken it to the drag strip second day of having it on the road. On what I thought was a pretty conservation tune and 12 psi boost, spinning through 1st and 2nd (I was excited ) missed 4th I got 103 mph through the traps. I was pretty satisfied.

After the 3rd run oil pressure was down to about 10-15psi and it was knocking. Oops. The motor had 140,000km on it so I don't know if it was knock that killed it or it was on its way out already. I was at about 21 degrees timing max boost, and 27 at redline. Lots yes but the plugs showed rich idle, lean WOT but no signs of detonation.

I had to get it home and tried to limp it but half way there I put the clutch in and when the oil pressure dropped it went clank clank and quit. Seized. Haven't pulled it apart yet but I'm now researching the best route to go. If the heads are good (crosses fingers) it might be cheapest to buy a good used or new ej257 short block and bolt it in. If the heads are pooched I'll rebuild em or buy other ej20g heads. I won't know until I get it apart, but for now I'm open to any suggestions as to which direction to go. I'm only looking for 300-350 hp atc so I'm open to just about anything. I've got 550cc injectors I just haven't put them in yet.

Mike
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Old 05-06-2009, 05:26 PM   #2
sniper512
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Well from what I can see with the 257 bottom end you should have no problems hitting 300+ chp. Just get the car tune properly on a dyno
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Old 05-06-2009, 07:01 PM   #3
Eatoniashoprat
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Well from what I can see with the 257 bottom end you should have no problems hitting 300+ chp. Just get the car tune properly on a dyno

Thats what I was thinking, it would be nice to find one that is slightly used or even if any other 2.0 short blocks would bolt in, I'd go for that if the price is right. I'm only looking to spend around $2000, and a new stock ej257 from lightspeed is $3100, and I'd have to buy oil pump, water pump, head gaskets, timing belt tensioner, head bolts etc.

I was in Cranbrook a month ago, nice city. Do you know how often short blocks change hands in this part of the country?

Mike
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Old 05-06-2009, 07:23 PM   #4
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just buy a new ej257 block from subaru for 1700 if 300 hp is all your looking for.
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Old 05-06-2009, 09:04 PM   #5
Eatoniashoprat
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just buy a new ej257 block from subaru for 1700 if 300 hp is all your looking for.
They're a little more pricy than that here, though I only checked at a perf shop ($3100) and not subaru. Does anyone know the part number?
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Old 05-06-2009, 09:27 PM   #6
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http://flatironstuning.com/p-970-sti...hortblock.aspx


They must've just raised the price after I sold 4 of em, it used to be $1750.
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Old 05-06-2009, 10:34 PM   #7
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They're a little more pricy than that here, though I only checked at a perf shop ($3100) and not subaru. Does anyone know the part number?

call ron at rawperformance. he helped me out
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Old 05-06-2009, 11:15 PM   #8
Eatoniashoprat
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call ron at rawperformance. he helped me out
Hey thanks, you're the second person to tell me that. Must be a sign, haha.
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Old 05-06-2009, 11:52 PM   #9
sniper512
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Cranbrook is alright, its the surrounding area that keeps me here. There are some of the most incredible roads to drive in North America within an hours from here. Kootenay Lake road to Nelson is amazing and Ainsworth Hot Springs to New Denver and back to Nelson is also unreal.

I would just go with a stock 257 block. It can handle a fair bit of punishment. I am not sure about there availablity around here I am going to order mine from Subaru possibly.
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Old 05-07-2009, 06:21 AM   #10
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If the heads are good or not investing in a decent pair will certainly make the power goal more easily attainable. I am assuming you have The early tapitty tap HLA heads = paper weight only.
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Old 05-07-2009, 08:15 AM   #11
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They might have a bad reputation, but they are hardly paperweights. Especially if you already own a pair. I guess some guys are just head snobs.

Look here if they are tapping: http://bbs.legacycentral.org/viewtopic.php?t=39699
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Old 05-07-2009, 08:18 AM   #12
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hybrid hybrid hybrid!
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Old 05-07-2009, 09:07 AM   #13
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The only bad thing about those heads are the HLA's when they are noisy. Otherwise, they flow nicely especially on a motor with bigger bore thanks to the increased valve angle. With EJ257 bottom end and these early heads compression ratio will be 8.0 using the stock EJ257 head gasket. You may have a few (small) issues installing the intake manifold when using these thinner gaskets and you will also need to use the later style belt tensioner with additional idler pulley.
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Old 05-07-2009, 09:44 AM   #14
Eatoniashoprat
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The only bad thing about those heads are the HLA's when they are noisy. Otherwise, they flow nicely especially on a motor with bigger bore thanks to the increased valve angle. With EJ257 bottom end and these early heads compression ratio will be 8.0 using the stock EJ257 head gasket. You may have a few (small) issues installing the intake manifold when using these thinner gaskets and you will also need to use the later style belt tensioner with additional idler pulley.
Wow, 8:1 thats low, I guess the I'd still have enough bottom end because its a 2.5. So the early legacy heads are different than the next gen ej20g? Just going by the other thread that said:

9.2:1 with 0.58mm original EJ257 gasket 11044AA641 (holes for intake manifold won't line up)
8.9:1 with 1.00mm Cometic gasket
8.6:1 with 1.37mm original EJ25D gasket 11044AA610


And also the HLA's in my heads are silent, guess I got lucky

I talked to a guy not too far from me that has about 10 early '90s JDM engines, one is in a clip the others are just laying in a field, all outside. I could probably pick one of these engines up for $100, swap the crank and rods into my block with some cosworth bearings, possibly forged pistons, and call it a day. Good/bad idea? Would definitely be cheaper than the $3500 it would cost to get a new ej257.

Last edited by Eatoniashoprat; 05-07-2009 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 05-07-2009, 10:51 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eatoniashoprat View Post
I talked to a guy not too far from me that has about 10 early '90s JDM engines, one is in a clip the others are just laying in a field, all outside. I could probably pick one of these engines up for $100, swap the crank and rods into my block with some cosworth bearings, possibly forged pistons, and call it a day. Good/bad idea? Would definitely be cheaper than the $3500 it would cost to get a new ej257.
$100~?! Take the $3k you save there and put it into building the motor, bore n stroke it out a bit and you'll have a strong enough base for WELL over 350AWHP. Then you'd need the supporting mods to get there and not break stuff. LOL Just make sure you plan $$ for the little bits. Pistons/rods/crank are just the big ones, I'm talking about all the gaskets, pumps, screws, seals, etc. you'll need.
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Old 05-07-2009, 01:08 PM   #16
Eatoniashoprat
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$100~?! Take the $3k you save there and put it into building the motor, bore n stroke it out a bit and you'll have a strong enough base for WELL over 350AWHP. Then you'd need the supporting mods to get there and not break stuff. LOL Just make sure you plan $$ for the little bits. Pistons/rods/crank are just the big ones, I'm talking about all the gaskets, pumps, screws, seals, etc. you'll need.
Okay just estimating, use stock rods and crank, $100 motor for crank and rods

so $500 forged pistons, bearings?, machine work, gaskets $400, head studs $200, oil pump/water pump $200. - $2000 - $2500? This sounds low to me
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Old 05-07-2009, 03:17 PM   #17
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So the early legacy heads are different than the next gen ej20g?
Yes. The first-gen EJ20G (Legacy GT/RS) heads have 57cc of combustion chamber volume in the head; the second-gen EJ20G (Impreza WRX up to 1996) heads have 46-47cc of combustion chamber volume.

That explains the CR difference. But in my opinion 8.0 is OK for boost application; recently manufacturers have started ti increase CR but that is mainly for emission and driveability reasons, it actually makes boost and ignition maps for challenging
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Old 05-07-2009, 04:56 PM   #18
Eatoniashoprat
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If I go 2.5 is my ej20g MAF going to be maxing out? Just trying to think of other 'hidden' costs

Also I might be able to buy my buddies ej205 with 20k on it, was rebuilt by subaru. I know the reputation of these blocks but with a td05, 17-18 psi would it really be that bad?

Last edited by Eatoniashoprat; 05-07-2009 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 05-07-2009, 05:36 PM   #19
sniper512
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I believe the MAF is maxed out around 18-19psi with the TD05 16g on a 2 liter so you would assume it would max out at a lower psi with a 2.5. Also you'll need more fueling and some type of tuning for a 2.5 build for the most out of it anyways.
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Old 05-07-2009, 05:52 PM   #20
JDMFLCL
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its maxed out @ 1.2 bar actually

just go some form of shortblock, ej22t+pistons should do the trick
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Old 05-07-2009, 05:53 PM   #21
Eatoniashoprat
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Originally Posted by sniper512 View Post
I believe the MAF is maxed out around 18-19psi with the TD05 16g on a 2 liter so you would assume it would max out at a lower psi with a 2.5. Also you'll need more fueling and some type of tuning for a 2.5 build for the most out of it anyways.
I've got lots of fuel pump room, and 550 cc injectors that could easily be swapped or fuel pressure turned up. Plus Apexi Power fc and datalogit to tune it.
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:56 AM   #22
Eatoniashoprat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnix View Post
Yes. The first-gen EJ20G (Legacy GT/RS) heads have 57cc of combustion chamber volume in the head; the second-gen EJ20G (Impreza WRX up to 1996) heads have 46-47cc of combustion chamber volume.

That explains the CR difference. But in my opinion 8.0 is OK for boost application; recently manufacturers have started ti increase CR but that is mainly for emission and driveability reasons, it actually makes boost and ignition maps for challenging
Thanks for sharing so much knowledge, its appreciated .

One thing that just came to mind: if my heads have a different combustion chamber size, then where is that difference taken up between the motors? Are the pistons different? block? I'm asking because I might have found a shortblock for a WRX ej20g, and now it seems I wouldn't be able to use it unless I got the heads too, is this correct? Thanks
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Old 05-08-2009, 03:04 PM   #23
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Heads, pistons and headgasket define compression ratio (if displacement stays the same). They need to match.
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Old 05-08-2009, 05:53 PM   #24
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I think the measurements commonly listed for the headgaskets are wrong. I personally had both of the current MLS gaskets in my hand and used calipers to measure them.

Please see this post http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=241
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:07 AM   #25
slava from goshen
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get z32 or 3'inch gm maf.

get ej20k heads and ej257 block (you can even get on ebay for 1700 free shipping)
upgrade your oil pan/baffle/pick up. i'm not certain but i've been told by a vendor on here that usdm wrx oil pan is an upgrade already, also the pick up on ej20g looks beefier.

what trans are you using? dont get too excited with engine building and leave that out, make sure that your trans will hold the power.
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