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Old 03-09-2009, 03:14 PM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default Mazda to compete in Targa Tasmania with Turbocharged RX-8 SP


Quote:
The 2009 Targa Tasmania endurance race that runs from April 28 to May 3 and comprises around 1,890km (1,157 miles), including 465km across 40 closed-road, stages will see the return to competition of Mazda's SP moniker. Using a production RX-8 GT as a base, Mazda Motorsport Australia added a turbocharger to the car's rotary engine increasing output from 228HP to 275HP and torque from 211Nm to 300Nm.

Other modifications include the addition of a roll cage and bucket seats as well as chassis and suspension upgrades. The RX-8 SP rides on 18-inch lightweight MazdaSpeed alloys shod in performance tires.


Along with the RX-8 SP, Mazda will also enter a Mazda3 MPS at the endurance race that will be competing for honors in the Showroom 2WD Competition.


http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2009/03...ania-with.html
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Old 03-09-2009, 04:10 PM   #2
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So basically building the car that SHOULD be on showroom floors.
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Old 03-09-2009, 04:18 PM   #3
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Not really. Rotaries are pretty reliable until you add forced induction. The apex seals vulnerability to detonation is the ultimate reason why your earlier turbo 13b's have so many engine problems. And with only 275hp, you'd still be calling it slow. Not worth it for the customer or Mazda, IMO.

Even though it would be awesome...
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Old 03-09-2009, 04:25 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Skunkers View Post
Not really. Rotaries are pretty reliable until you add forced induction. The apex seals vulnerability to detonation is the ultimate reason why your earlier turbo 13b's have so many engine problems. And with only 275hp, you'd still be calling it slow. Not worth it for the customer or Mazda, IMO.

Even though it would be awesome...
100% spot on
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:59 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Skunkers View Post
Not really. Rotaries are pretty reliable until you add forced induction. The apex seals vulnerability to detonation is the ultimate reason why your earlier turbo 13b's have so many engine problems. And with only 275hp, you'd still be calling it slow. Not worth it for the customer or Mazda, IMO.

Even though it would be awesome...
all you need is a rock solid tune and water/meth injection, then BAM! RELIABLE, Turbo Rotary.
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:17 AM   #6
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just leave the RX8 the way it is, naturally aspirated, to keep the rotary "spirit" alive. MZR 2.3 turbo for the RX7 though!
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:30 AM   #7
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just leave the RX8 the way it is, naturally aspirated, to keep the rotary "spirit" alive. MZR 2.3 turbo for the RX7 though!
if you put a piston engine in an RX7 it won't be called an "RX" anything..
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Old 03-10-2009, 12:43 AM   #8
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I have an FD, and it's a great car, but I'll likely sell it in the fall. Reason being, I can never feel completely comfortable driving it. Only has 34k miles (original) and has no problems, but it's hard to get the thought out of my head that it could grenade at any time. It's hugely fast, nimble, smooth, makes a great noise, beautiful, and it's comfortable. But I'd rather drive something even not quite as fast or pretty if I could hammer on it without fear.
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Old 03-10-2009, 01:18 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Skunkers View Post
Not really. Rotaries are pretty reliable until you add forced induction. The apex seals vulnerability to detonation is the ultimate reason why your earlier turbo 13b's have so many engine problems. And with only 275hp, you'd still be calling it slow. Not worth it for the customer or Mazda, IMO.

Even though it would be awesome...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the apex seals in the renesis do not sweep over any ports like the previous designs so they theoretically are a none issue when it comes to forced induction.
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Old 03-10-2009, 01:21 AM   #10
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275bhp isn't squat for a turbo RX-8. That's a very conservative tune.

That said, if they had this turbo option and the Mazdaspeed front bumper they could have convinced many more potential buyers who were on the fence.
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Old 03-10-2009, 01:30 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by tronik View Post
I have an FD, and it's a great car, but I'll likely sell it in the fall. Reason being, I can never feel completely comfortable driving it. Only has 34k miles (original) and has no problems, but it's hard to get the thought out of my head that it could grenade at any time. It's hugely fast, nimble, smooth, makes a great noise, beautiful, and it's comfortable. But I'd rather drive something even not quite as fast or pretty if I could hammer on it without fear.
1. get rid of the OVERLY complicated octopus of a twin turbo setup, switch to a single turbo setup.
2. get rid of the precat in the downpipe, it clogs up and causes excess heat
3. eliminate the AST or replace the stock plastic one with an aluminum one
4. upgrade radiator and intercooler
5. better yet go with a V-mount intercooler/radiator setup
6. upgrade oil coolers
7. run a vented hood
8. replace all old rubber hoses and couplers, the heat causes them to become brittle and crack
9. ceramic coat or wrap "hot parts"
10. put a turbo blanket on the turbine housing on your turbo
11. have Steve Kan or another wicked Rotary Tuner give you a rock solid tune
12. run water/methanol injection purely as an detonation supressant

there you go, reliable FD u can hammer on, again and again, at the track or on the street

Oh yah, read howard coleman's stickys in the Auxillary Injection forum on RX7club.com
http://www.rx7club.com/forumdisplay.php?f=173
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Old 03-10-2009, 01:37 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by el~sharko View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the apex seals in the renesis do not sweep over any ports like the previous designs so they theoretically are a none issue when it comes to forced induction.
upgrade coil packs + full turbo kit + good tune = happy RENESIS engine

The stock RX-8 is fine for real driving enthusiasts who like cars that reward skill. But for the rest of the people who need power to feel fast the RX-8 doesn't fill the pallet.

A 275bhp is a pretty conservative tune, but that's plenty of power for the RX-8 especially when the roads get technical. The engineers probably didn't want to take away from the cars neutral balance.
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:34 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Superglue WRX View Post
The stock RX-8 is fine for real driving enthusiasts who like cars that reward skill. But for the rest of the people who need power to feel fast the RX-8 doesn't fill the pallet.
+123456789

A Z06 with a Pfadt coilovers, Pfadt swaybars, Brembo BBK, CCWs, and Michelin PS2s couldn't make me smile the same way an
RX8 with Swift springs, Koni yellows, ProgressTech swaybars, RacingBrake rotors, Enkei RPF1 and Falken Azenis RT-615s could.

It feels like an extension of your own body. So much driver feedback. I'm swooning...i used to be spoiled by brute horsepower and torque like the Viper. But after driving some MX5/Miata, RX7s, RX8s... *sigh* I'm now spoiled by light weight stiff chassis, excellent weight distribution, quick, nimble, driver feedback rich steering, wicked suspension layouts...

it really isn't all about horsepower, it's not everything, for me at least. not anymore. I'm officially a Mazda whore, i hope Mazda never stops making sports cars. Mazda sports cars are like Ballet Dancers around a track, a Viper is like a Football player around a track.

Last edited by DeeBoy; 03-10-2009 at 02:40 AM.
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:07 AM   #14
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeBoy View Post
+123456789

A Z06 with a Pfadt coilovers, Pfadt swaybars, Brembo BBK, CCWs, and Michelin PS2s couldn't make me smile the same way an
RX8 with Swift springs, Koni yellows, ProgressTech swaybars, RacingBrake rotors, Enkei RPF1 and Falken Azenis RT-615s could.

It feels like an extension of your own body. So much driver feedback. I'm swooning...i used to be spoiled by brute horsepower and torque like the Viper. But after driving some MX5/Miata, RX7s, RX8s... *sigh* I'm now spoiled by light weight stiff chassis, excellent weight distribution, quick, nimble, driver feedback rich steering, wicked suspension layouts...

it really isn't all about horsepower, it's not everything, for me at least. not anymore. I'm officially a Mazda whore, i hope Mazda never stops making sports cars. Mazda sports cars are like Ballet Dancers around a track, a Viper is like a Football player around a track.

Agree, but if the balance and communication is there it never hurts to have alittle more power, especially if it is well integrated and throughout the revband. That is why I said this is how it should be sold, a low pressure turbo and the extra HP and Torque would not overwhelm what is a well balanced chassis. If the gas milage was not so poor (I drive allot of miles for work) there would be an RX-8 parked in my driveway right now, I hope the update to DI helps solve some of the fule consumption issues. I would take a NA/DI RX-8, with about 270hp and 25mpg on the highway it would be perfect.
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:32 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by LowFast View Post
So basically building the car that SHOULD be on showroom floors.
smallest engine with worst gas mileage + gas guzzler tax...
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:47 AM   #16
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Awesome. Hope the car does well.
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:54 AM   #17
dbrier
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The 30% increase in torque would make that car so much fun. That seems to be the real gain, no the 47 HP.
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Old 03-10-2009, 10:01 AM   #18
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Here's a full article on the car courtesy of Gomez on RX8club:












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Old 03-10-2009, 10:12 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tronik View Post
I have an FD, and it's a great car, but I'll likely sell it in the fall. Reason being, I can never feel completely comfortable driving it. Only has 34k miles (original) and has no problems, but it's hard to get the thought out of my head that it could grenade at any time. It's hugely fast, nimble, smooth, makes a great noise, beautiful, and it's comfortable. But I'd rather drive something even not quite as fast or pretty if I could hammer on it without fear.
As a former FD owner, I felt the same way. I sold it (to buy a house) before it started showing signs of death. I used to belong to a Mazda club and knew all the FD owners. Most have since replaced their engines (at least once). I think the FD had solid engines if properly maintained and unmodded. Once you start modding, then you take the engine's life in your hands. When I sold my FD, it was running >300HP at the crank and I really miss it even though I probably saved myself a few grand by not keeping it too long.

Even though, IMO, the FD shape is classic and beautiful, I also really like the RX-8 design as well. The more I see it on the road, the more I like it. I like that the rear seats will fit two adults with their legs still intact. I would love to see more power. I would love to see a turbo or 3-rotor RX-8 or a MX-8 with the 2.3 DISI turbo. I wouldn't mind seeing a MX-8 with the 360HP V6 TT eco-boost engine either.
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Old 03-10-2009, 01:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeBoy View Post
1. get rid of the OVERLY complicated octopus of a twin turbo setup, switch to a single turbo setup.
2. get rid of the precat in the downpipe, it clogs up and causes excess heat
3. eliminate the AST or replace the stock plastic one with an aluminum one
4. upgrade radiator and intercooler
5. better yet go with a V-mount intercooler/radiator setup
6. upgrade oil coolers
7. run a vented hood
8. replace all old rubber hoses and couplers, the heat causes them to become brittle and crack
9. ceramic coat or wrap "hot parts"
10. put a turbo blanket on the turbine housing on your turbo
11. have Steve Kan or another wicked Rotary Tuner give you a rock solid tune
12. run water/methanol injection purely as an detonation supressant

there you go, reliable FD u can hammer on, again and again, at the track or on the street

Oh yah, read howard coleman's stickys in the Auxillary Injection forum on RX7club.com
http://www.rx7club.com/forumdisplay.php?f=173

That is probably the absolute most absolute rock-solid reliable build you can do (been lurking rx7club for like 6 years, heh), but I've met several guys with setups like that who still wound up replacing an engine.

God, if it were easier I would just RENESIS swap an FD.
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:43 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DeeBoy View Post
if you put a piston engine in an RX7 it won't be called an "RX" anything..
It would be called Reliable.

Nick
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Old 03-10-2009, 11:20 PM   #22
tronik
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Originally Posted by DeeBoy View Post
1. get rid of the OVERLY complicated octopus of a twin turbo setup, switch to a single turbo setup.
Among the problems here: It's not cheap, it's a lot of work, and then you have to get a powerFC and tune. And it takes it pretty far from stock - that;s one of the strong points of my car - I bought it 100%, completely stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeBoy View Post
2. get rid of the precat in the downpipe, it clogs up and causes excess heat
3. eliminate the AST or replace the stock plastic one with an aluminum one
First things I did! Under the hood was unbearably hot after a drive. Touching the hood prop HURT. New DP made all the difference. No hotter than a typical NA car now. Also did the AST for peace of mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeBoy View Post
4. upgrade radiator and intercooler
I have a real water temp gauge on the car, and all is well on the water temps, but if I even see close to dangerous this summer, I'll do the radiator. The intercooler - well, you can't do much on the FD modwise before you run into danger. Some people follow the rule, pick three from among intake, IC, downpipe, midpipe, and muffler. Some say its more like two...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeBoy View Post
11. have Steve Kan or another wicked Rotary Tuner give you a rock solid tune
Not that easy to do - first you need a grand worth of powerFC and stuff, then you need to get steve in front of your car. I live near peter farrell supercars and I would not even trust them. Plenty of PFS cars with blown motors. Don't want to go that far from stock either, so when I sell it I'll have some people looking for originalilty, and not just kids. The adults have all the money anyway :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeBoy View Post
12. run water/methanol injection purely as an detonation supressant
Have had this idea...in fact I have an Aquamist in my garage that I could use. Bought it originally for my turbo miata. If I keep hte car I'll probably install it as a safeguard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeBoy View Post
there you go, reliable FD u can hammer on, again and again, at the track or on the street
Maaaaybe lol. One thing I definitely need is an EBC. With just the DP, you can overwhelm the stock wastegate - I've seen 11psi on one of the two boost gauges (don't turst just one, and that was well founded, both read differently) up from stock 10psi, and if you hit 13psi, kaboom.

Also, beyond the reliability question, there is a personal one as well - wife and I are going to try and start a family this year, and I own The FD, and a 91 miata I turbo'd, which I DD. Wife has the WRX wagon. I'll probably need to get something I can fit a baby seat in, and the turbo miata isn't worth enough money to bother selling. But I guess I'll see whether I fall in love with the FD over the summer. I bought it in the fall last year and didn't drive it all that much, as I got down to installing the DP and AST, and gauges pretty fast. Then I put it away for the winter. Wasn't going to let it see salt and ice and crap.
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Old 03-11-2009, 12:07 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tronik View Post

First things I did! Under the hood was unbearably hot after a drive. Touching the hood prop HURT. New DP made all the difference. No hotter than a typical NA car now. Also did the AST for peace of mind.
Get it ceramic coated too. While my ceramic coated DP was obviously replaced the same time I went single, the heat difference was amazing, even the temp inside the cabin. I went from driving around with the fan always on '4' and still sweating, to '2' to keep from freezing.

In all fairness, I grabbed the prop on the Sub once in the summer, and it burned the heck out of me too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tronik View Post
I have a real water temp gauge on the car, and all is well on the water temps, but if I even see close to dangerous this summer, I'll do the radiator. The intercooler - well, you can't do much on the FD modwise before you run into danger. Some people follow the rule, pick three from among intake, IC, downpipe, midpipe, and muffler. Some say its more like two...
Do the radiator anyways. The stock radiator is a joke. I'm going to advocate a one mod rule.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tronik View Post
Have had this idea...in fact I have an Aquamist in my garage that I could use. Bought it originally for my turbo miata. If I keep hte car I'll probably install it as a safeguard.
I think this should be standard on rotaries. There's speculation that it keeps the apex seals and rotor faces free of carbon deposits too. I have a Aquamist 1s kit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tronik View Post
Maaaaybe lol. One thing I definitely need is an EBC. With just the DP, you can overwhelm the stock wastegate - I've seen 11psi on one of the two boost gauges (don't turst just one, and that was well founded, both read differently) up from stock 10psi, and if you hit 13psi, kaboom.
I don't recall any FD owners having real success using an EBC to control boost creep or spikes.

I have a Greddy pop-off (pressure relief) valve, not to be confused with the BOV function. Basically it bleeds off pressure above a set psi. I think it's a great idea if implemented as a last resort to protect against boost spikes, as long as the spikes are reasonably under control. Shouldn't be used as a band-aid. I have all aluminum IC piping though. I suppose you could mount it to the bottom side of a Greddy aluminum intake elbow in your otherwise stock configuration.

http://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/10-2131

http://www.rx7store.net/product_p/greddyelbow.htm


Quote:
Originally Posted by tronik View Post
Also, beyond the reliability question, there is a personal one as well - wife and I are going to try and start a family this year, and I own The FD, and a 91 miata I turbo'd, which I DD. Wife has the WRX wagon. I'll probably need to get something I can fit a baby seat in, and the turbo miata isn't worth enough money to bother selling. But I guess I'll see whether I fall in love with the FD over the summer. I bought it in the fall last year and didn't drive it all that much, as I got down to installing the DP and AST, and gauges pretty fast. Then I put it away for the winter. Wasn't going to let it see salt and ice and crap.
Meh, drop in a JDM rear 'seat'. Perfect size for a baby seat. Otherwise, baby seat should be able to anchor to the floor through the rear bins in a pinch. Baby will love you all the more.
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Old 03-11-2009, 12:28 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el~sharko View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the apex seals in the renesis do not sweep over any ports like the previous designs so they theoretically are a none issue when it comes to forced induction.
It doesn't really have to do with ports; the apex seals on the rotors are much more exposed to pre-ignition/detonation than the basically equivalent pistons rings.

Piston rings typically sit below the piston face, so therefore somewhat shielded from the effects of detonation. Apex seals hang 'out in the open'. That's why you can take a bit of knocking on a piston engine; not so much on a rotary.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/...gine-rotor.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:47mm_piston_rings.jpg

Non-turbo rotaries have been known to last over 200k miles; some succumb to carbon deposits that makes a seal stick 'open', causing loss in compression. The seals on a rotor sit over leaf springs, which allows the seals to keep consistent contact with the housing face. If too much carbon builds up, the seals can become 'stuck'.

That's why rotaries not only love to be revved, it's suggested that you do so to help keep carbon deposits from building up. Driving a rotary like a grandma can be just as bad as beating on it.
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Old 03-11-2009, 02:51 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeBoy View Post
+123456789

A Z06 with a Pfadt coilovers, Pfadt swaybars, Brembo BBK, CCWs, and Michelin PS2s couldn't make me smile the same way an
RX8 with Swift springs, Koni yellows, ProgressTech swaybars, RacingBrake rotors, Enkei RPF1 and Falken Azenis RT-615s could.

It feels like an extension of your own body. So much driver feedback. I'm swooning...i used to be spoiled by brute horsepower and torque like the Viper. But after driving some MX5/Miata, RX7s, RX8s... *sigh* I'm now spoiled by light weight stiff chassis, excellent weight distribution, quick, nimble, driver feedback rich steering, wicked suspension layouts...

it really isn't all about horsepower, it's not everything, for me at least. not anymore. I'm officially a Mazda whore, i hope Mazda never stops making sports cars. Mazda sports cars are like Ballet Dancers around a track, a Viper is like a Football player around a track.
<------------ Pro dancer.

(straight, bishes)

And yeah, I can live with a lower HP car that handles well and feels communicative. I test drove a Honda Fit the other day, and as cheap and economy-focused as it is, it still was a fun little thing to thrash around in.
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