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Old 05-14-2009, 08:01 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default House reaches carbon cap deal

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House Democrats said Wednesday they had reached an agreement that could provide the struggling auto industry with up to $15 billion for advanced vehicles as part of a proposed plan to limit carbon emissions. They also said they have agreed to changes to carbon-cap proposals that could ease the impact on states such as Michigan that rely heavily on coal for electricity generation.

The agreements, announced by House Energy & Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman and former committee chairman John Dingell of Michigan, among others, would grant automakers 3 percent of the federal government's revenue from carbon emissions permits starting in 2012.
That is less than what automakers had asked Congress for last month, but lawmakers who support the industry and a trade group said the deal is good news.

"I'd say that it's encouraging, that this is a long process, and that it is encouraging that legislators recognized the need to return some of the investments to the industries responsible for reducing emissions," said Charles Territo, a spokesman for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which represent most major automakers doing business in the United States.

The auto industry's share could be worth $12 billion to $15 billion a year over the first six years the program is in place, said Lisa Zelljadt, a senior analyst at PointCarbon, which researches carbon markets.

Getting agreement from Dingell, one of the auto industry's biggest defenders in Congress and a potential foe of carbon limit legislation, is a significant step, Zelljadt said.

"Getting him on board in support of this bill is a pretty big deal for Waxman and Markey," she said. "That bodes well for the progress of the bill."

The group had sought 5 percent of allowances under a cap-and-trade program. Such a plan would place an overall cap on the amount of carbon emitted in the United States, and issue emissions permits to various industries. Some of those permits would be auctioned, and Wednesday's deal would send 3 percent of the money from those auctions, and from fines of those violating emissions limits, to the auto industry.

It's still unclear how the money would be awarded, or how it would be divided among automakers -- a major issue because Detroit's Big Three have seen their market share steadily decline. And carbon legislation faces uncertain prospects in the Senate, where Republicans, who generally oppose such a plan, have greater ability to block Democratic priorities.

But even a fraction of the revenue could be worth billions of dollars, and help the industry offset what are expected to be major costs of adjusting to a market in which emitting carbon comes at a cost.

"The agreement on allowance values will spur more innovations and new, green job creation here at home," Dingell, D-Dearborn, said in a written statement.

"This is a significant achievement for the automotive industry and its workers, as the bill will help fund research, development, implementation and deployment of new, low-carbon technologies and upgrading manufacturing facilities to provide the next generation of green vehicles right here in the United States."

The auto industry will receive 3 percent of allowances from 2012 through 2017, and after that will receive 1 percent of allowances through 2025.

"This agreement will recharge our automotive sector by moving forward with American production of electric vehicles and other fuel efficient cars, trucks, and SUVs," said Rep. Ed Markey, D-Mass., chairman of the Energy and Environment subcommittee.

The auto agreement is part of a larger series of deals Waxman, D-Calif., and other supporters of a tough carbon limit have struck in recent days to bring along hesitant Democrats from Michigan and other industrial states
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...358/1148/rss25
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:23 AM   #2
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So let me see if I understand all of this...please jump in if I get derailed...

You are going to issue penalties for the power producing plants around the country (with some exceptions in stinky Detroit), and collect revenue from them and give part of that revenue to the car companies, to fund electric cars, which will make the power producing plants make more pollutants to keep up.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:48 AM   #3
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which will make the power producing plants make more pollutants to keep up.
nuclear .....
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:46 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
So let me see if I understand all of this...please jump in if I get derailed...

You are going to issue penalties for the power producing plants around the country (with some exceptions in stinky Detroit), and collect revenue from them and give part of that revenue to the car companies, to fund electric cars, which will make the power producing plants make more pollutants to keep up.
it'll help. here's why

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1754766
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:48 PM   #5
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nuclear .....
Nuclear is great if you want the least CO2 benefit per dollar, with massive government subsidies, delivered the slowest.

I'm not sure why conservatives like nuclear so much. It's a high-risk investment that ties up huge amounts of capital, the investment pays back over very long time scales, there is lots of big-government involvement and public money is risked. Oh, and Nevada's state rights will need to be trampled to get a proper long-term storage facility set up. Any self-respecting Republican should be running the opposite direction.

I'm worried this carbon cap is going to turn into the biggest government giveaway to industry friends and political contributors since... Well, since the stimulus package. There is just way too much opportunity to rig the rules of the program to benefit friends. We can already see the players lining up to grease the palms.

Fortunately reducing carbon emissions is cost-negative. IOW, done right it is profitable, and sometimes in surprisingly short time frames.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:52 PM   #6
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At last, we're moving forward.

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Old 05-14-2009, 10:31 PM   #7
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Oh, and Nevada's state rights will need to be trampled to get a proper long-term storage facility set up.
Yeah, cause the Nevada Test Site is a pristine utopia that should be used for playgrounds and dog parks... .
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:45 PM   #8
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Does anyone else see a problem with the blatant redistribution of wealth inherent to this bill? The government needs to piss off.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:20 PM   #9
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Does anyone else see a problem with the blatant redistribution of wealth inherent to this bill? The government needs to piss off.


Are you aware of your location?
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:22 PM   #10
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Are you aware of your location?
Is that a serious question? Of course I'm aware of my location, what about it?
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:23 PM   #11
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I wonder when everyone will realize that the attempt to "save" the planet from a non existent threat is a complete waste of time.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:26 PM   #12
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I wonder when everyone will realize that the attempt to "save" the planet from a non existent threat is a complete waste of time.
Never, the debate is over and the truth is incovenient, we're doomed to this sort of stupidity until America collapses from it's own idiocy.
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Old 05-15-2009, 02:28 AM   #13
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Never, the debate is over and the truth is incovenient, we're doomed to this sort of stupidity until America collapses from it's own idiocy.
Right...so all of the energy that humans consume and waste they emit has no negative impact on this planet or the billions of other life forms which inhabit it?

Denials abound on all sides while everyone keeps going full steam ahead irrespective of the outcome.

Idiocy rears it's head in the form of our self-image; we have this unfounded belief that we know better than anything else, even billions of years of evolutionary progress.
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Old 05-15-2009, 03:08 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by WagonWielding View Post
Right...so all of the energy that humans consume and waste they emit has no negative impact on this planet or the billions of other life forms which inhabit it?

Denials abound on all sides while everyone keeps going full steam ahead irrespective of the outcome.

Idiocy rears it's head in the form of our self-image; we have this unfounded belief that we know better than anything else, even billions of years of evolutionary progress.
Right and the world as it is today was always around exactly like this. Suddenly it changes a little and it's the end of the world. You know there used to be a huge ice cap that connected asia and north america long before gas was used as fuel- wonder what secret society was polluting on massive scales to melt that away lol.
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Old 05-15-2009, 03:33 AM   #15
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Right and the world as it is today was always around exactly like this. Suddenly it changes a little and it's the end of the world. You know there used to be a huge ice cap that connected asia and north america long before gas was used as fuel- wonder what secret society was polluting on massive scales to melt that away lol.
Republicans, led by G. W. Bush.
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:09 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by WagonWielding View Post
Right...so all of the energy that humans consume and waste they emit has no negative impact on this planet or the billions of other life forms which inhabit it?

Denials abound on all sides while everyone keeps going full steam ahead irrespective of the outcome.

Idiocy rears it's head in the form of our self-image; we have this unfounded belief that we know better than anything else, even billions of years of evolutionary progress.

Right, just like the predicted ice age in the 70's.




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Old 05-15-2009, 09:28 AM   #17
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nuclear .....
What on earth happens to the waste afterwards? It's not like that stuff is safe to put anywhere.
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:35 AM   #18
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I can't believe there are still people who don't believe humans are having an impact on climate change. Just keep your heads in the sand, people. It's obvious that you know better than the thousands of scientists and multitudes of studies that say otherwise.
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:35 AM   #19
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What on earth happens to the waste afterwards? It's not like that stuff is safe to put anywhere.
What on earth?? What in space? LOL... Ship it to the moon..


















This post is made in total jest and should not be taken seriously
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:44 AM   #20
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Well, the global warming hoax is fueled by the fact that all the 'facts' are based on carefully chosen statistics.

Here is one statistic for you. When one (read that again. O - N - E) decent volcano erupts it outputs enough sulfur dioxide to LOWER the earths temperature 0.3C (~0.54F) for several years. Recent recorded history is very light in eruptions, that can directly help explain the increased temps we are seeing.

More evidence..


One of the earliest and most
comprehensive series is the Dust Veil Index (DVI) of Lamb (1970), which
includes eruptions from 1500 to 1900. When combined with series of acidity
measurements in ice cores (due to the presence of sulphuric acid aerosols),
they can provide valuable indicators of past eruptions. Using these
indicators, a statistical association between volcanic activity and global
temperatures during the past millennia has been found (Hammer et al., 1980).
Episodes of relatively high volcanic activity (1250 to 1500 and 1550 to
1700) occur within the period known as the Little Ice Age, whilst the
Medieval Warm Period (1100 to 1250) can be linked with a period of lower
activity.

I know the Green extremists hate scientific facts that disprove their little cult, but think about it. This is just one scientifically proven fact. You CANNOT take 20 years of temps and call that a climate change. The planet changes and regulates itself.

Do you really think that the Earth could have existed if its entire worldwide eco system was that fragile. The earth has sustained life for millions of years. Mother nature is a hardy gal.

With that being said. Should we stop all the green house emissions improvements and say screw waste management. Heck no. But we should temper it with some science, and reality and come up with real solutions, not knee jerk things that are only good at getting attention in the papers...like no black cars...etc.

Remove the extremists, the lobbyists, and the politicians, and let the Scientists do their job.
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:12 AM   #21
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With that being said. Should we stop all the green house emissions improvements and say screw waste management. Heck no. But we should temper it with some science, and reality and come up with real solutions, not knee jerk things that are only good at getting attention in the papers...like no black cars...etc.
This is something I can get on board with. If only all global warming detractors were that reasonable A well-thought out, well-researched response to a problem is almost always better than a knee-jerk reaction. There's no doubt about that.

Sure, there are some highly vocal advocates of the cause that use fear and warnings of impending doom to gain traction with the public (who feed off of sensationalist headlines), but most people involved in studying human effects on climate change are going at it with a level headed, scientific approach.

The people who are in the field, doing the research and reporting their findings aren't loonies. They are experts who are genuinely worried about our planet. It would be crazy to write off their findings as a conspiracy.
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:20 AM   #22
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While I do believe you buddy, we as laymen and general public, do not know the cooks who are in the back pocket of the politicians, or companies with an agenda, or a completely independent scientist, who does not have a preconceived answer before he starts looking.
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Old 05-15-2009, 11:07 AM   #23
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I've always wondered who in the heck these institutions and scientists are funded by and how and when they came into existence.

Pollution, icecaps, rising oceans....ice ages, lower seas, less food...I think we have obvious planetary cycles, but the human population keeps going up and we are living longer and longer and consuming more and more resources. At some point we have to curb our overall consumption to a flat level or downward trend.

I see some real benefits to this cap, but the pollution reduction benefits will cost the consumer in the long run.

I do not think the plug-in car will prove to be coal plant disaster that many nay-sayers are predicting.

More concerning to me is the floods and droughts that are difficult to control and effect all our qualities of life and overall stability. Don't need gas, but water is a must. I'd rather see pipes and pumps criss crossing this country carring water from flooded areas to drought ridden areas than worry about a coal plant.

The area I live just south of Washington DC was, until the last 2 decades lush with trees and farms. It is now suburbs and business centers. With the lack of farms, we are trucking our food into areas that were once areas that it was grown. We'll have to figure out ways to get our food growth areas in the same area as our populations to help lower our tailpipe outputs and stabalize our food prices.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:02 PM   #24
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I've always wondered who in the heck these institutions and scientists are funded by and how and when they came into existence.

Pollution, icecaps, rising oceans....ice ages, lower seas, less food...I think we have obvious planetary cycles, but the human population keeps going up and we are living longer and longer and consuming more and more resources. At some point we have to curb our overall consumption to a flat level or downward trend.

I see some real benefits to this cap, but the pollution reduction benefits will cost the consumer in the long run.

I do not think the plug-in car will prove to be coal plant disaster that many nay-sayers are predicting.

More concerning to me is the floods and droughts that are difficult to control and effect all our qualities of life and overall stability. Don't need gas, but water is a must. I'd rather see pipes and pumps criss crossing this country carring water from flooded areas to drought ridden areas than worry about a coal plant.

The area I live just south of Washington DC was, until the last 2 decades lush with trees and farms. It is now suburbs and business centers. With the lack of farms, we are trucking our food into areas that were once areas that it was grown. We'll have to figure out ways to get our food growth areas in the same area as our populations to help lower our tailpipe outputs and stabalize our food prices.

What planet do you live on.

Here are some hard truths you need to get use to.

1) we will NEVER curb our insatiable demand for raw materials. A growing population never uses less. We can use the products we have better, but we can never use less until the population stops growing

2) You cannot have pipes criss crossing the country to take water from flooded areas to drought areas. The mere concept is insane. The logistics and engineering challenges alone are almost impossible to overcome without billions being spent. Even then its iffy.

3) You cannot control droughts and floods. Period. Get over it.

4) You dont need gas, how did you get to work today? You need Gas. I promise you.

5) Cities will never EVER have food grown in them as real estate is too valuable, until you curb human greed, which you never will, that aint gonna happen.

Instead of wasting time day dreaming about impossibilities, work within our infrastructure to find ways to improve things. Thats more useful.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:26 PM   #25
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Fatherinlaw was an engineer at a nuk plant for a very long time just retired. The simplicity of a well designed plant makes it the most efficient and least polluting source of energy we have today. The byproduct spent rods - The French are the worlds expert in Nuk technology and also the farthest along in a spent rod recycling effort that looks promising.

The smaller easier to manage and more efficient nuk plants of today are much - much easier to maintain vs the older much larger and more complicated plants many people in the US are accustom to seeing and reading about. Maintaining the older nuk designs is a very big cost and needs to be done correctly or you have issues. If done correctly they are safe and quite good. The bad part is that the US has had a Nuk brain drain for many - many years so most of our plants are run by engineers who were trained and grew up in other countries and not in the US.

As for electric cars - they are coming seems like every major auto builder has a fairly simple city car in the works which makes sense if they can be priced right- supporting the draw those cars could generate when plugged in at night is a real concern.

If we could own a normal looking car with normal car safety features that simply plugs in at night - my wife and I would be a candidate to buy such a vehicle "AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT COST MORE THAN A NORMAL AVERAGE EVERYDAY CAR!" No we will not be spending $40K on a plugin GM spark or whatever they are going to call it. NOR will we spend $30K on a plugin Prius - But if we can buy a Ford Focus like vehicle for say $18K or 20K with fancy stuff then yes it might be in the cards.
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