PhatBotti Tuning Comparo: JDM EJ207 VF37 vs EJ205 VF39 vs EJ205 68HTA, All on E85!

[PhatBotti Tuning TKR]

Event: E85 Comparison Tuning
Location: Shelton, CT
Ambient Temp: 70-85
Elevation: 0-600
Weather: Warm


Car: 3 WRX's, One Version 8 swapped
Tuner: STi Mikey of PhatBotti Tuning
Dyno Info: Airboy
Transmission: 2 5 spd cars and one JDM 6 spd
Gear: 3rd/4th
Peak HP at RPM: 310/323/345
Peak Torque at RPM: 339/304/313
Baseline hp/tq for a stock on same dyno: 160-165 stock 2.0 WRX
Target Boost: 23/21/23
Target AFR: low 11's
Fuel: E85
Engine/Power Modifications: DW1000-1300's, Bolt ons


With all the E85 2.0 cars coming in lately (7 last week alone), there are even more PM's from the 02-05 WRX guys in regards to sub 400whp motor/turbo setups.

In regards to this, I thought it would be appropriate to throw up a comparo of all stock motor cars running similar setups. The 2.0vf cars were making great power for ambient conditions, with little to no power on the table. The 68HTA car could make another 35, but it was agreed that the 2.0 would be built first.



First up, the JDM version 8 swapped WRX. The EJ207 is perhaps my favorite factory Subaru Motor. Although requiring a totally different approach in tuning style (if the big port heads are in the package), these things take a beating. I have a few 350-400+ whp ej207's with the stock block, and I feel they are not even breaking a sweat



Boost ran was 23-24 psi:




Next was an EJ205 with vf39. Boost ran was 21psi, 22-28*:




Finally, the 68 HTA. Here is a great comparo to the other EJ205. 22psi, using the same ignition mapping as the vf39 car.





All three cars were fast, considering the mods and ambient conditions. If I had to pick one, I would pick the EJ207 an use the 68HTA turbo. On e85 and 25-26psi, the car would be a street warrior, with low 11 second capability. It would even be auto X friendly, utilizing full advance of the AVCS on good Juice.


Enjoy guys,

-Mikey

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

[kayen]

Looks great Mikey! I am loving my EJ207 VF36 tune from you on E85, however I am getting the itch for more power...

[fellstar]

lol. Stop it. Making me want to tear out my TS and put in an HTA68...

I'm still thinking twin scroll SC46.

[PeteJM]

So this isnt really a comparison because one engine (JDM 207) can breath better. Would be nicer to see the same motor with the exact same mods/injectors from a 2.0 and just swapped turbos with the same tuner as a comparison. As well the EJ207 crank is ballanced better and has more oil journals where the EJ205 crank is balanced to a totally different RPM as well as the internals of the two engines.

What I would personally like to see is a comparo of these 3 turbos on a EJ205 on a Dynapack and not a Excel Dyno.

[Wanarex]

PeteJM,
I agree that it is not a direct comparo but I don't think that is what they were going after either. The big port heads at that power and only running to 7k are not going to make the biggest difference; they simply wont shine w/o a bigger turbo. As for the other things you mentioned, they're not making power for the motor so they're irrelevant to the comparison.

[PhatBotti Tuning TKR]

Originally Posted by PeteJM

So this isnt really a comparison because one engine (JDM 207) can breath better. Would be nicer to see the same motor with the exact same mods/injectors from a 2.0 and just swapped turbos with the same tuner as a comparison. As well the EJ207 crank is ballanced better and has more oil journals where the EJ205 crank is balanced to a totally different RPM as well as the internals of the two engines.

What I would personally like to see is a comparo of these 3 turbos on a EJ205 on a Dynapack and not a Excel Dyno.

Your right about the 207, but 95% of the people in here already know these things. I posted this in response to PM's about sub 400+ whp 2.0 cars. Many PM's are received from the high mile bugeye guys in regards to motor/turbo setups looking for 325-400whp. I never recommend a 2.5. Its always the 207 or Maxwell 2.35.

So Im just helping them out by saying showing them results and by giving a direct answer. When I get back from Miami I will be more than willing to post multiple results from stock 205's with vf/hta/gt30 with that of 207's that I dyno tune. I see your from SC

-Mikey

[Kitt]

I guess the 68hta car is my car? You did a great job tuning it Mikey, car is nice and smooth but my clutch is slipping now

[dux10]

Originally Posted by PhatBotti Tuning TKR

Your right about the 207, but 95% of the people in here already know these things. I posted this in response to PM's about sub 400+ whp 2.0 cars. Many PM's are received from the high mile bugeye guys in regards to motor/turbo setups looking for 325-400whp. I never recommend a 2.5. Its always the 207 or Maxwell 2.35.

So Im just helping them out by saying showing them results and by giving a direct answer. When I get back from Miami I will be more than willing to post multiple results from stock 205's with vf/hta/gt30 with that of 207's that I dyno tune. I see your from SC

-Mikey

Making me re-consider the hybrid route.... Then again, in all fairness, when my motor popped the first thing you advised was a 207... lol

[PhatBotti Tuning TKR]

Originally Posted by dux10

Making me re-consider the hybrid route.... Then again, in all fairness, when my motor popped the first thing you advised was a 207... lol

LOL

I love the 207's!! It would have been nice to hit the 200,000 mile mark, but I think your gonna love the power the new project has to offer. Well worth any wait.

I've been in in out of the 20G thread, looks very VERY promising my friend!!

Hope all is well in the G-A red clay,

-MIkey

[yeahdudebrown]

Have you had the chance to tune a Blouch 16G-XT?

[Phatron]

results are the same as the hta68

[LIQUIDSK8S]

I'm curious as to why the VF39 EJ205 made more power than the VF37 EJ207. What were the mods on each of them? What was different? Apples to apples the VF37/EJ207 should easily make more power than a EJ205 with the VF39.

[fellstar]

Relevant mods on the EJ207 car:

EJ207 with 1300cc injectors
Zerosports splitter with JDM STi hoodscoop.
V8 STi TMIC
APS Hard turbo inlet
Tomei Expreme Headers Wrapped
Tomei Expreme 2.75" DP :\
AVO Rallitek catback (Catless)
Stock Intake, Stock filter, with snorkus.

[Psychoreo]

I've seen (one) car with a 207/68HTA/usdm 6 speed combo running 93 octane that just cracked 300whp. Is it the E85 that's really allowing more boost and more power?

[Motion Lab Tuning]

Here are my impressions, you can make any of the tunes here look good with those magic graphs. I can't really tell if re tunes are good or not since those excel spreadsheet data cN be manipulated. Also, how are you handling boost over the stock 2.5 bar map sensor?

[LittleBlueGT]

^^^

Here we go.

[dux10]

Originally Posted by Psychoreo

I've seen (one) car with a 207/68HTA/usdm 6 speed combo running 93 octane that just cracked 300whp. Is it the E85 that's really allowing more boost and more power?

e85 and Mikey

[fellstar]

Originally Posted by Motion Lab Tuning

Here are my impressions, you can make any of the tunes here look good with those magic graphs. I can't really tell if re tunes are good or not since those excel spreadsheet data cN be manipulated. Also, how are you handling boost over the stock 2.5 bar map sensor?

Cause we all know how we want to brag about fake numbers here >.>

[Phatron]

Although i didnt tune these cars, Mike did, the deal with stock map sensor and boosting over ~23 psi is that i never said we never did it.....its just like Al used to do "dyno or no dyno". Although i prefer an in car boost gauge and/or an upgraded map sensor, i will do it without if the customer desires and knows that the fuel cut is gone.

The only question i had about you doing it was that you claimed that you have the overboost fuel cut still in tact. We dont make that claim.

We already had a tune off on juans car....and you lost. get over it.

And if you're gonna post your ghey disclaimer and biatch at everyone in your threads asking you questions, then isnt doing it to others being a hypocrite?

I really dont care if you come in any thread and ask any question you want...after all thats what public forums are for and what you should expect. I mean would you put a picture of your ballz on facebook and expect no comments/questions? But dont go around acting all high and mighty, then pull the "do as i say, not as i do".

[fellstar]

^^

I know on my setup we were using my AEM boost gauge for measuring peak boost.

Overboost is unlikely due to my hybrid BCS setup anyway. MBC is capped at 24psi.

[Motion Lab Tuning]

Ron,

Well, I had to ask : ) it's the fact that everyone is trying to make it look like we're doing something wrong, when the reality is that others are doing it too. That actally makes me happy. Maybe we can all get along? That disclaimer was for the haters

Have a good one.

Todd

P.s. You need to think in terms of airflow, not map. That was my point on boost control.

[Motion Lab Tuning]

Originally Posted by fellstar

^^

I know on my setup we were using my AEM boost gauge for measuring peak boost.

Overboost is unlikely due to my hybrid BCS setup anyway. MBC is capped at 24psi.

No worries man, as long as you're happy and you believe in your tuner.

[Phatron]

U can see as fellstar just posted he has a boost gauge and ebcs+mbc.

Again....the problem wasnt with the level of boost...it was your claim about the overboost fuel cut being in tact at that level.

And dont feel attacked.....there are lots of opensource tuners and lots of well respected tuners in ppb and we all try and help each other out. There are enough cars for everyone to tune.

We were all asking serious questions.....then in the last 5 minutes you went in mine, juniors and ed's threads and made comments about crappy graphs, lack of power, magic tunes, etc......the problem now is that you're doing this out of pure spite. We were asking serious questions and you are basically just being an ass trying to do it as payback. Before those 3 posts you had never posted in anyone else's thread in ppb.....so its obvious what you are doing.

[LIQUIDSK8S]

Originally Posted by fellstar

Relevant mods on the EJ207 car:

EJ207 with 1300cc injectors
Zerosports splitter with JDM STi hoodscoop.
V8 STi TMIC
APS Hard turbo inlet
Tomei Expreme Headers Wrapped
Tomei Expreme 2.75" DP :\
AVO Rallitek catback (Catless)
Stock Intake, Stock filter, with snorkus.

Now the question I have is what were the mods for the Ej205/VF39. Because there's no way the EJ205 should be making as much power let alone more. Just doesn't add up.

[Psychoreo]

Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S

Now the question I have is what were the mods for the Ej205/VF39. Because there's no way the EJ205 should be making as much power let alone more. Just doesn't add up.

Even with e85+more boost?