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Old 06-16-2009, 06:34 PM   #51
arch4life
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the comparison vs the full turbo back exhaust on the sti is a bit retarded on the money end, i guess if you go out and spend 300$ on a downpipe and 500$ on a catback, and 200$ on a uppipe, you'd be close to 1k, but seriously, who does that?


my entire turboback + uppipe cost me 200$. i doubt people would really pay 1k for some exhaust piping. jeeezzz
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Old 06-16-2009, 06:41 PM   #52
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Funny. What is a Saab STI btw?
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Old 06-16-2009, 06:56 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arch4life View Post
the comparison vs the full turbo back exhaust on the sti is a bit retarded on the money end, i guess if you go out and spend 300$ on a downpipe and 500$ on a catback, and 200$ on a uppipe, you'd be close to 1k, but seriously, who does that?


my entire turboback + uppipe cost me 200$. i doubt people would really pay 1k for some exhaust piping. jeeezzz
I agree and I hope the word spreads. Not sure if this would be the case in all situations, but by the looks of the graph I am gaining power earlier in the rpm band but that is about it.

and as you pointed out, many many cat-back systems are 800-1400 big ones which is crap. I cry when I think about what I paid...maybe sell it and go cheaper?
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:31 PM   #54
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its a saabaru, with an sti motor and ecu.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:29 PM   #55
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all these posts are making me want to hurry up with my hta68 setup results.. i currently have it in my 08 running with meth.. installing very soon.. ewg, injectors, pump, rails, intake etc..
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:33 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazswing View Post
Ok, think I got the graphs correct now.

Ok, here we go: Mod list: DW850, WB255pump, Perrin two-cat DP, Borla CB, AEM CAI, FP HTA68 turbo, colder plugs, Motul 10W-40, around 80 degree shop temp, foglight cover removed, no heat shield on the AEM. 2008 STI, stock internals hence the boost not over 22psi.
Decent numbers, tough I think you should have used turbo swap time as an opportunity to switch to the single cat version of the downpipe.

-Matt
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:58 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bklynpanman View Post
all these posts are making me want to hurry up with my hta68 setup results.. i currently have it in my 08 running with meth.. installing very soon.. ewg, injectors, pump, rails, intake etc..
What would the power increase be (if any?) if you would convert the HTA68 with an external waste gate as opposed to the stock internal one?

Thanks!
Walter
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:31 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Beetspeed View Post
What would the power increase be (if any?) if you would convert the HTA68 with an external waste gate as opposed to the stock internal one?

Thanks!
Walter
oh goodness...

go to the newbie forum and read the stickies.
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Old 06-17-2009, 09:46 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arch4life View Post
the comparison vs the full turbo back exhaust on the sti is a bit retarded on the money end, i guess if you go out and spend 300$ on a downpipe and 500$ on a catback, and 200$ on a uppipe, you'd be close to 1k, but seriously, who does that?


my entire turboback + uppipe cost me 200$. i doubt people would really pay 1k for some exhaust piping. jeeezzz
my tbe+uppipe+hanger/gasket for a g200 was 1003 dollars. BITE IT
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Old 06-17-2009, 10:33 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beetspeed View Post
What would the power increase be (if any?) if you would convert the HTA68 with an external waste gate as opposed to the stock internal one?

Thanks!
Walter
Not sure. I would love to see a set-up with an EWG and this turbo. My understanding is that boost can be kept much more stable across the rpm band meaning you might be able to kick up the boost just a little knowing it will do what you want.

As for the catted DP, indeed we might have seen more from the cat-back with a catless system or even a one cat system, I don't know. That DP was on sale I do like having a cat. PDE did some testing on their cat vs. catless system once upon a time and found not such a huge difference. but that was their DP.

As for this set-up, some more miles on it and it continues to be a blast to drive. I think I will keep it as with some venting savvy in the future for the CAI. I will have to report back after this weekend when I drive the 92 octane map. but while I am in town, corn in my friend!
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Old 06-17-2009, 12:02 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surgeline Tuning View Post
Jeff,

How in the heck is the torque curve so smooth with the boost looking like that?

To me that suggests that the boost isnt where the power is coming from.

Did you change the timing & afr on the 92+torco tune?

I mean if you can dip the boost like that and not even make a ripple in the torque, that means the boost isnt really doing that much.

Compare it to the boost down around 20psi and you can see every little boost fluctuation directly in the torque curve.

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Old 06-17-2009, 01:36 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Jeff,

How in the heck is the torque curve so smooth with the boost looking like that?

To me that suggests that the boost isnt where the power is coming from.

Did you change the timing & afr on the 92+torco tune?

I mean if you can dip the boost like that and not even make a ripple in the torque, that means the boost isnt really doing that much.

Compare it to the boost down around 20psi and you can see every little boost fluctuation directly in the torque curve.
For these specific tests above we ran the dyno in vehicle simulation mode. That means that the time for the run varies with power: low power runs take less time than higher power runs. So, the answer to your inquiry is explained in part by this. The faster higher power (higher boost) dyno pull is a bit filtered looking because there is less time in the run. Second, the upward swing in boost at the end of the "torco" run may not have resulted in a larger increase in airflow. i.e. the turbo may have been working outside of its efficiency range. The dyno "smoothing" at high power is an absolutely real influence. The boost/airflow explanation is just an idea.

The timing was comparatively lower for the torco runs because load was much higher. Air to fuel ratios were similar across the two fuel types. I'm sure i could have gotten more out of the higher boost / torco runs but, quite frankly, i was worried about putting a rod through the block of this stock 2.0 liter motor. The customer was not interested in pushing any further. So, in this regard the higher boost pulls were a proof of principle but were in no way as "refined" as the lower boost tuning.

Regards
Tim Bailey
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:24 PM   #63
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Interesting so the HTA68 is clearly not a turbo that spools like a 16G but has the power of a 20G. I was considering this turbo for my rally car but I think I would like to stick with my 16G because I have to run the restricter I'll never make it over 300 HP anyway and the 16G will spool faster.
The only thing that is still a question in my mind is the claim that this turbo operates better under higher compression ratios. With the restricter you get more of a vacuum at the restricter inlet so the turbo has a higher compression ratio to reach the same amount of boost. I'm curious how the HTA68 would compare with a restricter fitted.
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Old 06-19-2009, 09:47 AM   #64
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Wish I knew more about restricters. Maybe Jeff or Tim will chime in, GodSquadMandrake.

Ran out of gas last night. First time I have ever let that happen. Dumped in 5gal of 92, drove to fill it up.

92oct map feels like the E85 map really. Only I can't get the wheels to chirp in second gear...in a straight line Car remains highly drivable and loads of fun.

By many accounts it would seem this is a modest turbo upgrade for an STi. But I am very happy with its output. 60% of this cars life so far is DD and this turbo just offers a very nice compromise all around.

I will need to swap cars for some driving with another 08sti local who has a 20G, headers, TBE, but OEM TMIC (for now) and see.
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Old 06-19-2009, 02:42 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GodSquadMandrake View Post
Interesting so the HTA68 is clearly not a turbo that spools like a 16G but has the power of a 20G. I was considering this turbo for my rally car but I think I would like to stick with my 16G because I have to run the restricter I'll never make it over 300 HP anyway and the 16G will spool faster.
The only thing that is still a question in my mind is the claim that this turbo operates better under higher compression ratios. With the restricter you get more of a vacuum at the restricter inlet so the turbo has a higher compression ratio to reach the same amount of boost. I'm curious how the HTA68 would compare with a restricter fitted.
It is true that restrictors work well with turbo's that have high efficiency at higher pressure ratio's (a higher compressor map).

However, restrictors also mean that its difficult to get enough air moving at lower RPM to get the turbo spooled. If you can use antilag to get the turbo spooled then a larger turbo is great. However, i can't imagine the HTA will ever spool on a 2.0 liter rally car, without anti lag, and WITH a restrictor.

I've tuned probably 1/2 of the competitive rally cars in the pacific northwest.... 2.5 liter cars all make about 250 hp at the wheels regardless of turbo choice. Those with good setups make 330 to 370 ft pounds of torque. The difference in tq but similar HP all relates to the restrictor limiting power. Its a simple technology that works.

If however, you are using a 2.5 liter motor the HTA may be a good choice. Efficiency at higher pressure ratio's will certainly impact power. Perhaps someone will choose this turbo for next season and I'll have some direct comparisons.

Regards
Tim Bailey
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Old 06-19-2009, 04:58 PM   #66
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Sorry to be off topic, but would like to know which size restrictor you have to use there. (I am from the Netherlands and we use FIA regulations in our rally cars)
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Old 06-19-2009, 05:47 PM   #67
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Sorry to be off topic, but would like to know which size restrictor you have to use there. (I am from the Netherlands and we use FIA regulations in our rally cars)
PMs work as well...
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Old 10-02-2010, 07:38 PM   #68
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Would this HTA68 bolt up to a 04-07 Forester XT?
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Old 10-02-2010, 10:16 PM   #69
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Nice comparison!! My hta68 with e85 is a beast on the street
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Old 06-07-2011, 10:33 PM   #70
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good info
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Old 06-04-2013, 04:49 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
With all the talk about the new HTA68 turbo, I thought it would be informative to post up a few results from the application of this turbo. It has been suggested that this turbo is somehow both a 16G with the power of a 20G. We had the opportunity to test the HTA on a 2.5L 08 STI, as well as a 2.0L WRX.

Before looking at the results, please save all of us the trouble of not posting up the obvious: Yes, the 08 STI test was not perfect as it was not a real stage 2. Yes I know it would be better on a complete stage 2. Yes I compared it with a real Stage 2 stock turbo. Yes it would be nice to have a 20G 2.0L to compare to. These results are just that: Results. They do not provide all of the information to make a complete conclusion. They do however contain some interesting insights for the more intellectually blessed. Please read on.

** We will have a HTA68 STI Full Exhaust Test later this week.

To start, letís look at the HTA68 on a 2.0L WRX.



This WRX was prepped with a complete stage 2 exhaust, external wastegate, and a set of equal length headers. Ported TGVs, DW850 injectors and 255lph fuel pump. On a 2.0L, I would consider this a bit of a laggy turbo. Power up top was fantastic, and on the 23psi Torco run power peaked at 348whp! 15psi at 4400 rpm, full spool at 4700 rpm.
A logical comparison would be an 18G or a 20G. I didnít have any 20G direct plots to compare with (on 2.0L), but I did have a good 18G comparison.



This comparison shows an 18G-5H-7cm compared to the HTA68 on a 2.0L WRX. Boost threshold with the 18G is obviously better by about 1000rpm. Once on boost however, at the same or similar boost levels the HTA68 performs better. While the 18G can hold 19psi to redline, it is clearly running out of efficiency compared to the larger HTA68. Had I not know what turbos were being compared here, I would have guessed an 18G and a 20G, perhaps even a 20G-6H.

On a 2.0L, this turbo makes great power, but it is a bit laggy (as a 20G might be). For many this would not at all be an issue, and the gains up top for a turbo of this price makes this a good choice if you are looking to make >330whp.

Turning up the boost a bit, let's compare a slightly higher boost level with the HTA68 and the 18G:



Here you can see with the boost at 22psi on the 18G 320-330whp is possible. With the HTA at about 23psi and with Torco added 350whp was touched on. That is pretty good power on a 2.0L with a nice bolt on turbo. The 18G outspools the HTA68 by about 600rpm here.

Summary for the 2.0:

Performance of the HTA68 seems similar to what a 20G might do on a 2.0L. Boost threshold is better with the 18G, but once spooled the HTA68 can outperform the 18G. Give the price point of the HTA68 ( it is at least a few hundred dollars less then the 20G ), it is a good alternative if you are looking for the 330+ whp range on your 2.0L. Obviously if lower end torque and boost threshold is a critical consideration, a 16G/18G might be a better choice.

Let's switch over to the 2.5L space.
For this test, we tuned an HTA on a 2008 STI with an aftermarket downpipe (single cat), and with the STOCK mid pipe and muffler. This is not a real stage 2 configuration, but something the customer wanted to try. As you can imagine the stock muffler is both quiet as well as restrictive. Fortunately we had a 20G customer who also tuned with a stock muffler.

We can start with the results of the HTA68 on the 08 STI:



Boost threshold is very good, stock level boost threshold in fact. Upper end power was not great, although based on the 2.0L results I would suspect this may be caused by the significant backpressure from the stock mufflers. While the turbo could hold a solid 20psi, power was the same rolling down to 19 at redline.

The overall results look similar to a 20G-7cm. Sure enough..



This is not a direct apples to apples comparison for a couple of reasons: First these are uncorrected results, and the 20G tune was done in 30 degree cooler weather. Second the 20G car had the perrin headers, which once hot can help spoolup a bit. If you factor in those differences, these two turbos perform about the same. Similar spoolup, similar power, similar torque.

It is possible that a difference might occur at higher power levels (and with a real exhaust), however I suspect the performance will be close. This new HTA68 is much like a 20G, but of course at a cheaper price level. Nice.

When comparing to a stock turbo, I consider both a more direct comparison with a car also with the stock muffler:



Here you can see how the stock turbo boost threshold was actually a bit worse, but this is comparing a stock downpipe vs an aftermarket one. Once the HTA is in the power, the stock turbo is significantly under the curve. Boost falls off up top, and power is down 50whp.

Switching to a Stage 2 STI setup:



This shows a real Stage 2 STI with downpipe compared to the HTA68 with downpipe but stock muffler. Obviously a real stage 2 to HTA with stage 2 exhaust would be a better comparison, but this is instructive. Consider the thought process here.. You have X dollars to spend on your bone stock STI. What should you do?

In this case, you could spend $1000 on the HTA68, plus perhaps $300 on the downpipe, or $1100 on a complete Stage 2 exhaust. With the HTA you get near factory noise level and a bit more power to boot. On the flip side if you are going to do a stage 2 anyways, the gains are pretty close. Clearly adding the HTA to the Stage 2 would give the best results.

Summary for the 2.5:

Good results on the HTA, but nothing spectacular. Performs like a 20G in this test case. Given the cost is less, it has an advantage. Boost threshold on the HTA is probably a bit better then the 20G in identical test cases (same headers, temp, etc). Clearly an 18G might spoolup a tiny amount sooner, but since this combo can get near stock spoolup in these test cases, why not get the extra headroom of the 20G/HTA68.

I am not sure why anyone would compare the HTA68 to the 16G. Yes it makes more power, but even the 18G outspools it on a 2.0L. The direct comparison would be with the 20G. A 20G 8cm will likely be a bit later in spooling, but might be a bit stronger at higher hp levels.

Jeff Sponaugle
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Surgeline Tuning

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Old 06-04-2013, 08:33 AM   #72
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Holy necro thread. The HTA68 is no longer in production. I doubt there will be any updates here....
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:13 PM   #73
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how bout the new version 71
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:13 PM   #74
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This is what i made at Boost for Boobies this year, stock motor 2.0l 140k on motor, HTA68 ported, E85, 1000cc ID injectors, external gate, FMIC, Ported TGVS, aeromotive fuel rails and lines, and phenolic spacers.
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Old 05-25-2014, 04:45 PM   #75
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Just got the hta68 on my stage 2 08 STi. Can't wait to compair it the stock turbo. However I have added tgv delets, inlet tube, and ebc. No a very fair comparison but I want stock like spool with h a little more top end.
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