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Old 06-08-2009, 09:05 PM   #1
generalee69
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Default Need help.. weird problems

Ok so I had some weeeiirrdd issues come up at this weekends race.

During our Saturday race it felt like the rotors were warped (possibly just bad pad deposit though). Under straight line braking the car would vibrate violently. It also seemed like I could not brake while steering into the corner. The wheel just felt stiff under braking. Also I would have to re-set (pump the pedal) the brake pads before braking, or it would feel like I had no brakes at all.

I changed the rotors out for an old set and threw in a new set of pads. The first session Sunday the brakes felt fine.

During the Sunday race, as I pulled out for our warm up lap I noticed the ABS light was on (indicating an ABS malfunction). No CEL, No brake light, no DCCD light. The whole race the ABS did not work and I was locking the brakes up like crazy. Then a few laps into the race I started getting really bad vibration (thump thump thump) while cornering. Straight line braking seemed fine, I only noticed the thump thump during cornering. It didn't matter what direction the corner was.

Then at about lap 11 (out of 19 - 30 min race) the car was down on power once it rev'd to 6000rpm. At first it just seemed like it was from 6500 and up, then by the end of the race it seems like it wouldn't pull over 6000rpm.

Oil pressure was normal (70ish at WOT on the straights), Oil temp was normal (less than 240), water temp was normal, and AFR's on WOT was at around 10.5-10.8. Boost pressure was normal .105-.11 mPA.

Directly after the race I could swear I could hear a thumping or clunking as I was driving through the paddock. But now I can't replicate it driving around my neighborhood.

After the race I shut the engine off and restarted, no ABS light. And it hasn't come back since (I've started the car maybe 4 or 5 times - to load, unload, drive around the neighborhood, etc).

I checked the oil tonight. Oil is a little low, but looks good. Water looks good. Nothing visibly wrong....

Soooo.. WHERE THE HELL DO I START? ABS pump? ABS conroller? Axle? Wheel bearing?

I jacked the car up tonight. It doesn't feel like a wheel bearing is bad. Both the front axles had a little in/out movement, but they both felt about the same.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:26 PM   #2
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You still have 04 wheel bearings? Just for grins, unstake the front axles and try tightening the axles nuts to the specified torque. If they tighten up significantly, I'd assume wheel bearings.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:30 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
You still have 04 wheel bearings? Just for grins, unstake the front axles and try tightening the axles nuts to the specified torque. If they tighten up significantly, I'd assume wheel bearings.
K, I'll start there.

Does it make sense that if a wheel bearing was gone bad enough that it would cause engine power loss? The two issues seem that they would be completely unrelated... but I dunno.

I know the ABS and DCCD are tied together.. so I dunno if there is something down that avenue to check.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:42 PM   #4
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Could it be a wheel bearing freezing up so badly it makes the wheel drag, and screws with braking force so badly that the ABS freaks out?

What about a dead caliper? The stock Brembos aren't bulletproof when subjected to hard track use.

The thumping could have been a flat spot from locking the brakes.

Needing to pump the brakes would be consistent with pad knockback, which would be worse with a bad wheel bearing.

-Mike
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:49 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post
Could it be a wheel bearing freezing up so badly it makes the wheel drag, and screws with braking force so badly that the ABS freaks out?

What about a dead caliper? The stock Brembos aren't bulletproof when subjected to hard track use.

The thumping could have been a flat spot from locking the brakes.

Needing to pump the brakes would be consistent with pad knockback, which would be worse with a bad wheel bearing.

-Mike
Maybe, but I would think that I would hear an awful noise (if not on the track, then for sure driving at slow speeds in the neighborhood).

And even if it was screwing with the ABS, how would that adversely affect engine power.

I thought about flat spotting, but they vibration was completely gone while going in a straight line and under braking.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:56 PM   #6
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I was thinking the ABS might be because the rotor was wobbling enough to move the tone ring out of the normal plane with the ABS pickup.

I have 05+ STI wheel bearings on my WRX. 6Gun kit so, I can run either 5x100 or 5x114. I'd consider it. I can swap the bearings at the track with simple hand tools.

I really have no idea on the power thing. The questions is, is it real or just a perceived power reduction.
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Old 06-08-2009, 10:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
I was thinking the ABS might be because the rotor was wobbling enough to move the tone ring out of the normal plane with the ABS pickup.

I have 05+ STI wheel bearings on my WRX. 6Gun kit so, I can run either 5x100 or 5x114. I'd consider it. I can swap the bearings at the track with simple hand tools.

I really have no idea on the power thing. The questions is, is it real or just a perceived power reduction.
I have a spare set of hubs with new wheel bearings that I take with me to the track. What's odd is that I have never had a wheel bearing fail on me so far (20+ track days and races). The Brembo's are Brownbo's so I know I'm getting some temps to the brakes.

I guess it doesn't do any good to have the spare hubs/bearings with me if I don't know when to change them

I really hope that is the problem, but I have a feeling that it is not.
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Old 06-09-2009, 01:06 AM   #8
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Sorry to interupt but ah what`s the difference between the 04 and 05 wheel bearing...I just had mine done a few months ago and replaced with oem 04 bearings on the rear.
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by generalee69 View Post
Ok so I had some weeeiirrdd issues come up at this weekends race.

During our Saturday race it felt like the rotors were warped (possibly just bad pad deposit though). Under straight line braking the car would vibrate violently. It also seemed like I could not brake while steering into the corner. The wheel just felt stiff under braking. Also I would have to re-set (pump the pedal) the brake pads before braking, or it would feel like I had no brakes at all.


Directly after the race I could swear I could hear a thumping or clunking as I was driving through the paddock. But now I can't replicate it driving around my neighborhood.


Soooo.. WHERE THE HELL DO I START? ABS pump? ABS conroller? Axle? Wheel bearing?

I jacked the car up tonight. It doesn't feel like a wheel bearing is bad. Both the front axles had a little in/out movement, but they both felt about the same.
I left in the quoted parts I will address, as I JUST had the exact same thing happen to me last weekend also. I felt what I thought was a tire going flat, a slight wobble in the front end within 2 laps turned into a violent shake of the steering, followed by a clunking/thumping as I pulled back into the pitlane. Sounds familiar right? Well that clump/thump in my case was followed by a loud grinding sound... which was my left front caliper jammed against the inside of my wheel, 3 studs sheared off flush with the face of the hub and the remaining 2 sheared in half (the half with the lug nut on it), so I was a split second from having the wheel come off on the track.

The wheel bearings felt "ok" on my car when I shook down the front end, but after taking them apart, that is the culprit. Which is also tied to the "I have no brakes" feel after hard cornering.

The brake issue is pad knockback, which I have also experienced before
many times before. The knockback issue is made much worse if you have play in the hub, the more play you have, the worse the knockback will be.

As for that ABS light, it is possible that something that came apart, such as a grease seal gooped up your wheel speed sensor causing an interruption in the magnet's connection to the tone ring. Mine had all sorts of metal on it, and some goop from inner wheel seal failing when the bearing started to really go bad.

Hope that helps,
Brandon
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post
Could it be a wheel bearing freezing up so badly it makes the wheel drag, and screws with braking force so badly that the ABS freaks out?

What about a dead caliper? The stock Brembos aren't bulletproof when subjected to hard track use.

The thumping could have been a flat spot from locking the brakes.

Needing to pump the brakes would be consistent with pad knockback, which would be worse with a bad wheel bearing.

-Mike
Just noticed the knockback was mentioned. Good call Mike.
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04RBSTi View Post
Sorry to interupt but ah what`s the difference between the 04 and 05 wheel bearing...I just had mine done a few months ago and replaced with oem 04 bearings on the rear.
The 05 bearings are larger to prevent the pad knockback that the 04s get. They are the same or similar to the bearings used in the heavier SVX and Tribecca. This is why the 05+ use 5x114.5 instead of the usual subaru 5x100 bolt pattern.

-mike
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:35 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonl View Post
I left in the quoted parts I will address, as I JUST had the exact same thing happen to me last weekend also. I felt what I thought was a tire going flat, a slight wobble in the front end within 2 laps turned into a violent shake of the steering, followed by a clunking/thumping as I pulled back into the pitlane. Sounds familiar right? Well that clump/thump in my case was followed by a loud grinding sound... which was my left front caliper jammed against the inside of my wheel, 3 studs sheared off flush with the face of the hub and the remaining 2 sheared in half (the half with the lug nut on it), so I was a split second from having the wheel come off on the track.

The wheel bearings felt "ok" on my car when I shook down the front end, but after taking them apart, that is the culprit. Which is also tied to the "I have no brakes" feel after hard cornering.

The brake issue is pad knockback, which I have also experienced before
many times before. The knockback issue is made much worse if you have play in the hub, the more play you have, the worse the knockback will be.

As for that ABS light, it is possible that something that came apart, such as a grease seal gooped up your wheel speed sensor causing an interruption in the magnet's connection to the tone ring. Mine had all sorts of metal on it, and some goop from inner wheel seal failing when the bearing started to really go bad.

Hope that helps,
Brandon
One of the really weird things is that I don't see anything visually wrong. No rub marks, no broken studs. Sounds like the wheel bearings are the place to start, especially since I have a spare set with new bearings ready to go.

I have experienced the pad knockback before, but I guess it worse than what I have had in the past... I was preoccupied with the vibration and not paying much attention to the brakes.
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:40 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by MasterKwan View Post
I really have no idea on the power thing. The questions is, is it real or just a perceived power reduction.

I don't think it was, but I guess it could have just been a perception. It normally rev's very quickly in 3rd gear (to the point where I have to pay close attention to the tach or I will bounce off the rev limiter). In the laps where I started noticing lack of power, it really felt like a lonnnng time to get to the rev limiter. It very well could have been that my pace was just off in the corners and therefore speed was down, so it took longer to get the revs back up...
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:52 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by generalee69 View Post
One of the really weird things is that I don't see anything visually wrong. No rub marks, no broken studs. Sounds like the wheel bearings are the place to start, especially since I have a spare set with new bearings ready to go.

I have experienced the pad knockback before, but I guess it worse than what I have had in the past... I was preoccupied with the vibration and not paying much attention to the brakes.
If you didnt let it get to the point that I did, you probably will not see anything visually wrong. The real indicator was the vibration only when turning, if you had a wobble or strange feel in the steering all the time it may point to a different issue. My wobble was harder as I loaded the left side more, so the harder I turned in to the right, the more I felt it in the steering. That is how I figured out quickly it wasnt a flat or a flat spot.
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:34 AM   #15
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Even with good wheel bearings, knockback will be there to some degree. Not a horrible thing though, as a pump or two on the brake pedal with your left foot heading down the straights is actually a safe practice to get into, knock back or not.
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:43 AM   #16
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This is the solution: http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product

Im putting these in before my next race. I will post some results.
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Old 06-09-2009, 05:56 PM   #17
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The pad knockback doesn't bother me too much, I have come to expect it in certain scenarios.

I have also heard grumblings that those springs don't work very well. Let us know how they work.
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:58 PM   #18
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I'm wondering about remove the spring thing that separates the pads. Doesn't seem like it would do anything particularly important on the track.

-Mike
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Old 06-10-2009, 08:05 AM   #19
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The pad knockback doesn't bother me too much, I have come to expect it in certain scenarios.

I have also heard grumblings that those springs don't work very well. Let us know how they work.
Well they seem to be a popular choice internationally with AP and Alcon, so I think it is worth a shot. The knockback is something I am used to also, but this past weekend I was in a couple scenarios that made it hard to deal with. I know "tightening up" the front bearings are key, but swapping to 5x114 is not in the cards, I have too much invested in wheels, rotors and my suspension to start over. I did look into the 6gun kit that keeps the 5x100 pattern, but something is going on with them, not sure what it is but they dont answer phone calls or emails, and I am not the only person experiencing that.
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Old 06-10-2009, 03:30 PM   #20
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The 05 bearings are larger to prevent the pad knockback that the 04s get. They are the same or similar to the bearings used in the heavier SVX and Tribecca. This is why the 05+ use 5x114.5 instead of the usual subaru 5x100 bolt pattern.

-mike
Cool I appreciate for the answer...I wish I knew I would have just bought the 05`s bearing rather than the 04`s mayb next time.
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Old 06-10-2009, 03:35 PM   #21
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Cool I appreciate for the answer...I wish I knew I would have just bought the 05`s bearing rather than the 04`s mayb next time.
There's more to it than changing the bearing. If you get the 6gun kit though, you can keep 5x100 but, still get the better bearings. Basically, you switch in new knuckles machined to fit 5x100 struts. You can also get them to machine in extra camber. My kit lets me get -2.5 degrees with the stock camber bolts and no top-hats.
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Old 06-10-2009, 03:35 PM   #22
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Dooh, double-post
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:00 AM   #23
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A little update. I pulled the race tires off the car and found that one of them had 2 flat spots on it. I am thinking that is probably where most of the vibration was coming from. BUT! when I put the street tires on, I drove around the cul-de-sac last night. When I do RH circles with the car at low speed (off or light throttle) I could feel a slight clunk. When I would do LH circles, nothing...

The car is going on the lift tonight, so hopefully we'll find it.

I did take off and do a couple of freeway on-ramp pulls. The engine pulled right up to redline. I dunno about the power loss, it doesn't seem to be an issue now... maybe something to do with the ABS light being on?

I guess if I see that in the future, I just shut off the engine and fire it back up.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:35 AM   #24
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CV joints is what I think if when you get noise in a corner in one direction but, not the other.

Still, you know the wheel bearings are disposible on the 04's and you've really got more than average lifespan out of them. I'd switch to the spare knuckles simply as a trouble-shooting step.
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Old 06-12-2009, 11:08 AM   #25
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Yup the thump/clunk when turning is exactly how my front wheel bearings ended their life. I just wrapped mine up, feels fine now. Buy the Neo grease when you do your next set.
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