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Old 07-18-2013, 05:06 AM   #4301
EnterTheDragon
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I wouldn't jump into outlaw or recommend it to someone new...it's advanced stuff and for those interested in competing. Far more efficient ways to get stronger fitter whatever if competing isn't a goal. I don't compete so for me there's too much oly emphasis. We used to brag about 20 minute workouts now we're taking hours.

A newb needs a linear strength program and then intelligently programmed metabolic conditioning as a compliment. Smolov into Fran is not that. Until you can program for yourself around your own goals there's a million different gyms posting their wods online. Crossfitcenturion is one I always recommend.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:09 AM   #4302
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I wouldn't jump into outlaw or recommend it to someone new...it's advanced stuff and for those interested in competing. Far more efficient ways to get stronger fitter whatever if competing isn't a goal. I don't compete so for me there's too much oly emphasis. We used to brag about 20 minute workouts now we're taking hours.

A newb needs a linear strength program and then intelligently programmed metabolic conditioning as a compliment. Smolov into Fran is not that. Until you can program for yourself around your own goals there's a million different gyms posting their wods online. Crossfitcenturion is one I always recommend.
For an experienced lifter I don't think doing outlaw is out of the question even if new to CF though I agree that for awhile it probably should be cut in half on some wods.

Didn't think about this but he might like CF football. They've a great strength program/schedule, and their workouts are shorter. It's probably my favorite programming, especially for someone who is more geared toward strength.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:51 AM   #4303
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For an experienced lifter I don't think doing outlaw is out of the question even if new to CF though I agree that for awhile it probably should be cut in half on some wods.

Didn't think about this but he might like CF football. They've a great strength program/schedule, and their workouts are shorter. It's probably my favorite programming, especially for someone who is more geared toward strength.
Experienced lifter does not usually = oly lifter, outside of Crossfit. If anything it means traditional compound movements/powerlifting, if they weren't on some chest/tris program.

Outlaw unscaled is too much for anyone new to the Olympic lifts.

The volume of anything like smolov/Russian squat programs/even 5/3/1 BBB is too much for a beginner. The metcon portion of the workout is taxing as is - they don't need to be hurting recovery that much more.

What I like and what I personally do is a 4 movement 5/3/1 (SOHP, BS, BP, DL), skill work, and then a metcon (non hero WOD). That's essentially the same program described above by Enter when talking about a linear strength program and I agree.
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:03 AM   #4304
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Experienced lifter does not usually = oly lifter, outside of Crossfit. If anything it means traditional compound movements/powerlifting, if they weren't on some chest/tris program.

Outlaw unscaled is too much for anyone new to the Olympic lifts.

The volume of anything like smolov/Russian squat programs/even 5/3/1 BBB is too much for a beginner. The metcon portion of the workout is taxing as is - they don't need to be hurting recovery that much more.

What I like and what I personally do is a 4 movement 5/3/1 (SOHP, BS, BP, DL), skill work, and then a metcon (non hero WOD). That's essentially the same program described above by Enter when talking about a linear strength program and I agree.
i do something similar. i do 5/3/1 for deads, squat and press and then i do 2-3 short metcons per week.
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:28 AM   #4305
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For someone that's new to CrossFit, I would highly recommend following OPT's "Function" programming. http://optexperience.com/blog

Their stuff is extremely well thought out and definitely stays away from the "more is better" programming that a lot of CF'ers fall into. As you become more comfortable with CF then you can look into their Being and Will programming down the road.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:19 AM   #4306
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Experienced lifter does not usually = oly lifter, outside of Crossfit. If anything it means traditional compound movements/powerlifting, if they weren't on some chest/tris program.

Outlaw unscaled is too much for anyone new to the Olympic lifts.

The volume of anything like smolov/Russian squat programs/even 5/3/1 BBB is too much for a beginner. The metcon portion of the workout is taxing as is - they don't need to be hurting recovery that much more.

What I like and what I personally do is a 4 movement 5/3/1 (SOHP, BS, BP, DL), skill work, and then a metcon (non hero WOD). That's essentially the same program described above by Enter when talking about a linear strength program and I agree.
he hasnt specified what kind of lifting he has been doing, and I did suggest that it would be good to cut back WODS.
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Old 07-18-2013, 12:09 PM   #4307
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he hasnt specified what kind of lifting he has been doing, and I did suggest that it would be good to cut back WODS.
Listen, as a rule of thumb, unless someone states they have oly lifting experience - they don't. The furthest they'll have gone is usually cleans - not snatches, not hang cleans, not cleans jerks from a box, or anything that isn't remotely vanilla.

Outlaw's programming is far from vanilla. It's a great program, but it was a poor recommendation for someone that is new to crossfit.
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Old 07-18-2013, 12:13 PM   #4308
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i do something similar. i do 5/3/1 for deads, squat and press and then i do 2-3 short metcons per week.
Sounds pretty ideal.

I have issues with recovery or have had issues with recovery because of some underlying health issues that seem to have recently been corrected. As such, I keep myself away from serious volume. I've built myself back up to some higher volume but the core pillar of my program at this point is definitely the 5/3/1.

I do 2 days on, 1 or 2 days off depending on the WODs and recovery, 2 days on, etc.

I.e.,
Mon - SOHP + whatever the metcon is
Tue - BS + whatever the metcon is
Weds - Off
Thurs - BP + whatever the metcon is
Friday - BS + whatever the metcon is
Saturday - Off
Sunday - Rest as needed or repeat.

I stay away from seriously high volume things and AMRAPs that are longer than 15minutes. Generally I'm very fast, so I rack up the rounds and wind up doing significantly more volume in a Cindy than the average person. I may do a workout like that once a week or once every two weeks, just to get a little bit of a longer burner in there.
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Old 07-18-2013, 12:52 PM   #4309
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Listen, as a rule of thumb, unless someone states they have oly lifting experience - they don't. The furthest they'll have gone is usually cleans - not snatches, not hang cleans, not cleans jerks from a box, or anything that isn't remotely vanilla.

Outlaw's programming is far from vanilla. It's a great program, but it was a poor recommendation for someone that is new to crossfit.
That's why I said if he was proficient in those lifts, then Outlaw isn't bad but that he might want to half workouts since he is new to CF in general, or scale something If his idea of lifting is bis and tris, then no, not a good idea, obviously.

You can still follow basic programming on advanced programs, as long as you scale as needed. I use to do SealFit a day or two a week. I could still follow the programming, even with slight scaled adjustments.

It's up to the individual to determine what their current/level ability allows them to do. If someone can't realize that on their own, then that's their problem(and I'm not speaking from a gym coaches POV, obviously they need to be in tune with their clients level). But for the individual on their own, asking advice, ill tell them that a program as fine as long as they scale for awhile. It's up to them to determine that.
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Old 07-18-2013, 01:30 PM   #4310
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he hasnt specified what kind of lifting he has been doing, and I did suggest that it would be good to cut back WODS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by totalburnout View Post
Listen, as a rule of thumb, unless someone states they have oly lifting experience - they don't. The furthest they'll have gone is usually cleans - not snatches, not hang cleans, not cleans jerks from a box, or anything that isn't remotely vanilla.

Outlaw's programming is far from vanilla. It's a great program, but it was a poor recommendation for someone that is new to crossfit.
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That's why I said if he was proficient in those lifts, then Outlaw isn't bad but that he might want to half workouts since he is new to CF in general, or scale something If his idea of lifting is bis and tris, then no, not a good idea, obviously.

You can still follow basic programming on advanced programs, as long as you scale as needed. I use to do SealFit a day or two a week. I could still follow the programming, even with slight scaled adjustments.

It's up to the individual to determine what their current/level ability allows them to do. If someone can't realize that on their own, then that's their problem(and I'm not speaking from a gym coaches POV, obviously they need to be in tune with their clients level). But for the individual on their own, asking advice, ill tell them that a program as fine as long as they scale for awhile. It's up to them to determine that.

Thanks for all of the info/conversation guys. You're both right. As far as lifting/cardio go I would say I'm def. above a noob. As far as Olympic style lifting goes I have 0 experience. In fact, I won't even try that due to the injuries it could cause without a form coach right next to me. Even doing a thruster hurts my wrist . Form is my biggest issue (aside from my gym not letting us make noise with the weight )

I like the idea of lifting heavy at first (Smolov, SOHP, BS, BP, DL) then going into a metcon. This is ideally what I'd like to do. I think I can handle the AMRAP mentality. I'm looking to cut so this would help in the calorie portion, don't know of any other downfalls as far as that goes.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:32 PM   #4311
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Thanks for all of the info/conversation guys. You're both right. As far as lifting/cardio go I would say I'm def. above a noob. As far as Olympic style lifting goes I have 0 experience. In fact, I won't even try that due to the injuries it could cause without a form coach right next to me. Even doing a thruster hurts my wrist . Form is my biggest issue (aside from my gym not letting us make noise with the weight )

I like the idea of lifting heavy at first (Smolov, SOHP, BS, BP, DL) then going into a metcon. This is ideally what I'd like to do. I think I can handle the AMRAP mentality. I'm looking to cut so this would help in the calorie portion, don't know of any other downfalls as far as that goes.
Basically, no to smolov. That's going to be too much volume so it's a bad idea.

Yes to Wendler's 5/3/1 or Rippetoe's Starting Strength. Yes to a 5x5 bench, SOHP, squat, deadlift program but its just not as well thought out in most cases.

Don't kill yourself prior to the metcon, especially if form is lacking.

Drop the weights in the metcon and make it your goal to keep moving. Many of the benefits come from the intensity and not from the load. The load /strength benefits come predominately from the core lifts beforehand. You'll definitely get strength through metcons but its not their sole or even primary focus many times.

Just say no to cutting calories. You're upping your activity level, no need to cut calories yet. Eat healthy but don't worry about calories. If you aren't losing bodyfat/inches in a month, then start looking at a calorie deficit. For the time being that's not a good idea because you need the calories for recovery.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:36 PM   #4312
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Basically, no to smolov. That's going to be too much volume so it's a bad idea.

Yes to Wendler's 5/3/1 or Rippetoe's Starting Strength. Yes to a 5x5 bench, SOHP, squat, deadlift program but its just not as well thought out in most cases.

Don't kill yourself prior to the metcon, especially if form is lacking.

Drop the weights in the metcon and make it your goal to keep moving. Many of the benefits come from the intensity and not from the load. The load /strength benefits come predominately from the core lifts beforehand. You'll definitely get strength through metcons but its not their sole or even primary focus many times.

Just say no to cutting calories. You're upping your activity level, no need to cut calories yet. Eat healthy but don't worry about calories. If you aren't losing bodyfat/inches in a month, then start looking at a calorie deficit. For the time being that's not a good idea because you need the calories for recovery.

Thanks total.

I need to follow a well written program with all of the lifts written down for me (basically a coach telling me what exercises to do). Do the lifts change week to week? Are they cycles?. Seems like there are so many WOD from here or there that I can't pick on from here or there because it's the same thing the last guy did.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:43 PM   #4313
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....or


I can write my own programming. I just need to know 'why' they would pick Fran for this day and Cindy for this day. Lifting in the gym it's easy because you know you didn't do back/chest/legs/shoulders and you can just pick the workout. With CFit you sometimes do legs 2 days in a row, not directly, but indirectly. So it's a total mentality change.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:59 PM   #4314
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Originally Posted by Jeramabih View Post
For someone that's new to CrossFit, I would highly recommend following OPT's "Function" programming. http://optexperience.com/blog

Their stuff is extremely well thought out and definitely stays away from the "more is better" programming that a lot of CF'ers fall into. As you become more comfortable with CF then you can look into their Being and Will programming down the road.
The box I go to has currently been doing a test program with OPT for group programming and I will say its definitely different(in a good way) than the normal CF programming we were doing before.
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Old 07-18-2013, 03:00 PM   #4315
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For example, here is what I did this week:

Monday: Smolov day 1 + Fran (dumb idea now that I'm more educated)
Tuesday: 5 bench press every even minutes, run 15cal every odd min. For 20 min
Wednesday: Smolov day 3 + 50 thrusters w/bar weight
Thursday: ??????????? <----- not even sure where to start. Shoulders? Back?
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Old 07-18-2013, 03:31 PM   #4316
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Thanks for all of the info/conversation guys. You're both right. As far as lifting/cardio go I would say I'm def. above a noob. As far as Olympic style lifting goes I have 0 experience. In fact, I won't even try that due to the injuries it could cause without a form coach right next to me. Even doing a thruster hurts my wrist . Form is my biggest issue (aside from my gym not letting us make noise with the weight )

I like the idea of lifting heavy at first (Smolov, SOHP, BS, BP, DL) then going into a metcon. This is ideally what I'd like to do. I think I can handle the AMRAP mentality. I'm looking to cut so this would help in the calorie portion, don't know of any other downfalls as far as that goes.
In that case, then no, Outlaw and some other programs arent for you yet, since OL is something you arent that familiar with. however, keep a check on those still because sometimes they will have WODS that utilize heavier compound lifts that it sounds like you are more familiar with. If you are wanting heavier compound lifts that are utilized in metcons regularly, then CFFootball is right up your alley. Probably my favorite programming.

crossfitfootball.com
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Old 07-18-2013, 04:23 PM   #4317
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In that case, then no, Outlaw and some other programs arent for you yet, since OL is something you arent that familiar with. however, keep a check on those still because sometimes they will have WODS that utilize heavier compound lifts that it sounds like you are more familiar with. If you are wanting heavier compound lifts that are utilized in metcons regularly, then CFFootball is right up your alley. Probably my favorite programming.

crossfitfootball.com

Thanks, that's something I'll look into!! I appreciate it!
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:23 PM   #4318
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What's your squat 1rm, I want to know why you think smolov is appropriate for you
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:42 AM   #4319
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What's your squat 1rm, I want to know why you think smolov is appropriate for you
375ish. I haven't squatted in a while. I've gotten 405x2 in the past.

My main thing is wanting to lift heavy first, then get into a metcon. So smolov may not be appropriate, idk.
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:24 AM   #4320
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Too much volume. Give 531 a go for strength then follow it with a 4-10min metcon
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:11 AM   #4321
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375ish. I haven't squatted in a while. I've gotten 405x2 in the past.

My main thing is wanting to lift heavy first, then get into a metcon. So smolov may not be appropriate, idk.
To get the most out of smolov you really should not be doing anything else. I took a break from all conditioning when I did it. Eat like a champ and sleep like a baby.
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:30 AM   #4322
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Smolov is not something you simply jump into. You need to have developed the capacity to handle the work load. It takes time to build a foundation from which you can benefit from an intense program such as Smolov.

If you feel you are there, go for it. But be honest with your ability to perform the work and recover.

Myself, I would keep it simple. Hit a main movement, an accessory move or three, then do a WOD or metcon.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:07 AM   #4323
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long shot but anybody here looking to buy some lifting shoes? both pairs have been worn maybe 20 times and look brand new. both are size 12 US

1) Rogue 2012 weight lifting shoes (black and grey). size 12 looks brand new. $70 shipped
2) Reebok Oly lifters size 12 black with red. $115 shipped. (U-form never used)
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:15 PM   #4324
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....or


I can write my own programming. I just need to know 'why' they would pick Fran for this day and Cindy for this day. Lifting in the gym it's easy because you know you didn't do back/chest/legs/shoulders and you can just pick the workout. With CFit you sometimes do legs 2 days in a row, not directly, but indirectly. So it's a total mentality change.
Shoot me a PM with your email. I'll give you the Wendler spreadsheet.

We'll then set you up with one of the websites to do the crossfit programming. So you'll have your strength program all laid out and then you'll be following a boxes crossfit programming.

Ask us on here to scale, as necessary, until you learn how to scale and modify the workouts yourself.

And I'm echoing Neek's, Tim K's, and Enter's sentiments about smolov. Unless as Tim said, you've developed the work capacity - or you're a genetic freak - or you're juiced to the gills, it's just not a good idea to take on when you're just adding the volume and intensity of crossfit. At this point in our discussion, I'm going to say you're none of those three - so that program isn't ideal.
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Old 07-21-2013, 12:43 AM   #4325
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Shoot me a PM with your email. I'll give you the Wendler spreadsheet.

We'll then set you up with one of the websites to do the crossfit programming. So you'll have your strength program all laid out and then you'll be following a boxes crossfit programming.

Ask us on here to scale, as necessary, until you learn how to scale and modify the workouts yourself.

And I'm echoing Neek's, Tim K's, and Enter's sentiments about smolov. Unless as Tim said, you've developed the work capacity - or you're a genetic freak - or you're juiced to the gills, it's just not a good idea to take on when you're just adding the volume and intensity of crossfit. At this point in our discussion, I'm going to say you're none of those three - so that program isn't ideal.
You guys are awesome! Thanks a lot! I'll send you a pm asap
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