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Old 06-20-2009, 09:26 AM   #1
Tea cups
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Default C&D OPINION: Five Reasons “Cash for Clunkers” is a Joke



http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._news/(page)/1

Quote:
With news that Congress has passed its ballyhooed $1 billion “Cash for Clunkers” bill, we feel compelled to voice our skepticism about the program. Here’s the bill in a nutshell: Buyers of new vehicles between July 1 and November 1 will be given a voucher for $3500 if they forfeit a post-1984 car or truck that has been registered for at least one year and has a combined fuel economy rating at least 4 mpg lower than their new vehicle. The voucher grows to $4500 if the increase in fuel economy is 10 mpg or higher. The old car or truck is then crushed and recycled.
Here are five reasons we don’t think this program is worth the time it took to draft it, let alone a billion dollars:

1) The voucher replaces the trade-in deal you might otherwise get from the dealership; it’s not in addition to the car’s private sale or trade-in value. In other words, if you’re trading in a car that’s worth $3000, your net gain is only $500. Although if your car is worth $100, CFC couldn’t come at a better time.

2) We’re not sure how many folks driving cars worth $3500 or less are in the market for a new car in the first place. Sure, there’s the occasional fresh-out-of-college new-hire (we’re not sure who’s hiring right now, but we’ll play make-believe) that might still be ready to move from a Dodge Omni to a shiny new Honda Insight, but people driving cheap old beaters are probably doing so because they can’t afford a new car. And $3500 doesn’t go far when the average transaction price of new cars hovers around $24K. The vouchers don’t apply toward the purchase of used cars, for which the majority of old beaters are traded in.

3) People driving large, gas-gulping old cars and trucks often do so because they need the utility those vehicles provide. Old station wagons, for example, have few modern counterparts that are as versatile while achieving better fuel economy. Ditto pickups, which have gotten bigger and more capable but not much more fuel-efficient. And if the government thinks that someone is going to step out of a 1994 Dodge Ram into a Honda Fit, they need to get out of D.C. a little more often.

4) Naturally, we have some reservations about any bill designed to facilitate wiping out—we’re sorry, recycling—any automotive species. And let’s face it, while there are a lot of bona fide clunkers out there, we’re afraid that a bunch of future classics will get caught in this roundup. We propose, then, that a certified auto enthusiast (paid, of course) be placed at all certified CFC dealerships to screen the cars that are brought in, returning the cool cars—including anything with T-tops—to the streets.

5) Besides cleansing the U.S. of gas-guzzling pigs, the other supposed benefit of the CFC program is to provide a short-term boost to the starving auto business. However, we hope these legislators don’t expect it to meaningfully help the domestic automakers. Many of the automobiles with fuel-economy ratings high enough to qualify for the vouchers come from Japan and Korea.

On the bright side, the cost to taxpayers will be minimal when no one actually participates.
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Old 06-20-2009, 07:52 PM   #2
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the proof will be in the pudding, if people actually participate. it's worked in europe...
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Old 06-20-2009, 08:31 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
the proof will be in the pudding, if people actually participate. it's worked in europe...
Yes, but if I understand correctly, the various European versions didn't have mpg restrictions (or they were less stringent). They were focused strictly on boosting new auto sales. Here in the US, it got tangled up with environment motivations and ended up being a boon for which very few people will be eligible (as described in the above article). A classic case of trying to please everyone and in the end, pleasing no one. But, who can really say for sure, only time will tell.
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Old 06-20-2009, 08:50 PM   #4
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Yes, but if I understand correctly, the various European versions didn't have mpg restrictions (or they were less stringent). They were focused strictly on boosting new auto sales. Here in the US, it got tangled up with environment motivations and ended up being a boon for which very few people will be eligible (as described in the above article). A classic case of trying to please everyone and in the end, pleasing no one. But, who can really say for sure, only time will tell.
i think the issue is more complex than you paint it. germany and the rest of europe already have taxes graduated by vehicle CO2 (germany just adopted their tax this summer, in fact: http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalca...-us-auto-woes/ ) and the high fuel prices in and of themselves create incentives to buy fuel efficient vehicles.

here in america we prefer to dance around such issues instead of addressing them head-on...
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Old 06-20-2009, 08:52 PM   #5
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First time I ever hear about this.
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Old 06-20-2009, 10:29 PM   #6
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Oh great! Yet another way the idiots in DC have decided to spend my money. Why not use a tax credit like the diesels and hybrids instead of leaching the money off all of us that actually earn something in this country.
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Old 06-20-2009, 11:02 PM   #7
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Sucks, my 99 dodge neon is ready to go and would love to get 4500 for it... But its rated at 35 MPG.. so that means i can get a PRIUS or a Volt to get the full voucher. Maybee the VW Gulf TDI

BTW Volt wont even be for sale when this is active
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:03 AM   #8
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more stupid plans from this white house....where does this crap end.
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:26 AM   #9
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Why is there an Impreza wagon in the photo?
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:44 AM   #10
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Why is there an Impreza wagon in the photo?
That's what I was wondering!
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Old 06-21-2009, 09:50 PM   #11
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it's worked in europe...
What do you mean "worked"? The whole idea makes no sense. Why spend tax money to pay to destroy cars that still work?
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Old 06-21-2009, 10:40 PM   #12
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My wife`s got a 99 jeep grand cherokee and, it`s has been breaking down a lot lately so I`m thinking about getting rid of it.

This cfc thing would actually work out for me but, not for what it`s main intention should be . Which is to help the american auto industry, small american car suck balls not to mention their depreciation. So I`m picking up a fit for the wife and calling it the day.

It`s a shame cause I love the jeep but, after it clocked 100k all went to hell in a matter of weeks (transmission is slipping a lil, leaky radiator , and the engine started consuming oil like crazy).

I would never get the money that the kelly blue book has it listed for, since I would have to waste a small fortune to fix it in the first place.
Plus not many people r trying to get into a 4x4 suv now days, specially if gas keeps on going the way it is . Besides I wouldnt have to waste time with the sale aspect of things.
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:58 AM   #13
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kinda sucks that we donated a 89 cherokee and a 93 caravan last year to charity....currently in the market for a new minivan..
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:53 AM   #14
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Hey Big Elm is this Political??Sure looks it to me...What these rules only apply to me.Also some of these threads are not news worthy but you never say anything or close them.Just wondering..

Tea Cups this has nothing to do with you.You know I like you alot...
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:32 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick View Post
What do you mean "worked"? The whole idea makes no sense. Why spend tax money to pay to destroy cars that still work?
the goal seems to be to boost the auto industry by giving incentives to people who purchase new cars by trading in their old ones.
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Old 06-22-2009, 04:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
the proof will be in the pudding, if people actually participate. it's worked in europe...
What do you mean when you say it worked?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
i think the issue is more complex than you paint it. germany and the rest of europe already have taxes graduated by vehicle CO2 (germany just adopted their tax this summer, in fact: http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalca...-us-auto-woes/ ) and the high fuel prices in and of themselves create incentives to buy fuel efficient vehicles.

here in america we prefer to dance around such issues instead of addressing them head-on...
What issues are we dancing around? Are you suggesting each vehicle should be taxed in relation to vehicles' CO2 emissions?
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Old 06-22-2009, 05:52 AM   #17
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Are you suggesting each vehicle should be taxed in relation to vehicles' CO2 emissions?
Yes..
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:18 AM   #18
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Yes..
Fantastic...let's start with cargo ships. We impose a tax for every pound of cargo one of these ships wants to offload in our port or truck across the border from Mexico or Canada. That should put manufacturing back on its feet in the US in no time.
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:55 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by AVANTI R5 View Post
Hey Big Elm is this Political??Sure looks it to me...What these rules only apply to me.Also some of these threads are not news worthy but you never say anything or close them.Just wondering..

Tea Cups this has nothing to do with you.You know I like you alot...
This thread is about why a bill in congress won't work and doesn't take on a political bent as in those other "ZOMG Obama is screwing up our country!!!!" threads. So, as I understand it, it isn't that you don't want to post something related to gov't/politics as you wouldn't be able to discuss "cash for clunkers" at all if that were the case (and a lot of stuff in the auto industry is intertwined with govt/politics). It is news or editorials that take on an obvious position for or against either party that causes a bunch of problems. I could be wrong, but I'm sure the moderators will clear it up.

As far as whether it is newsworthy or not, I did state clearly in the title that this was opinion. Editorials are part of news as well. Also if "rumor" related items are part of this sub-forum, then I don't see how opinion from a major car magazine would be excluded when some random rumor would not.
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:13 AM   #20
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Fantastic...let's start with cargo ships. We impose a tax for every pound of cargo one of these ships wants to offload in our port or truck across the border from Mexico or Canada.
We have to ship goods around the place - we don't have to drive 4700+lb 4WD 5.3L V8 things.

EDIT:
Quote:
That should put manufacturing back on its feet in the US in no time.
And for the record, I'd rather buy a car built by non-UAW labour in Mexico than by UAW labour in USA
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:25 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by XX WRX View Post
the goal seems to be to boost the auto industry by giving incentives to people who purchase new cars by trading in their old ones.
As they point out though:

Quote:
the other supposed benefit of the CFC program is to provide a short-term boost to the starving auto business. However, we hope these legislators don’t expect it to meaningfully help the domestic automakers. Many of the automobiles with fuel-economy ratings high enough to qualify for the vouchers come from Japan and Korea.
More seriously, spending yet more money that we don't have in order to temporarily prop up the car industry is not a solution to anything.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:34 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by felickz View Post
Sucks, my 99 dodge neon is ready to go and would love to get 4500 for it... But its rated at 35 MPG.. so that means i can get a PRIUS or a Volt to get the full voucher. Maybee the VW Gulf TDI

BTW Volt wont even be for sale when this is active
Neons won't be eligible anyways as it does not get a combined avg mpg of 18 or less.


http://www.cashforclunkersfacts.info...FVpM5Qod1DTVpA
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Originally Posted by article View Post
Who is eligible?
1. Only purchase or lease of new vehicles will qualify
2. Clunkers eligible for the program must get 18 MPG, or less
3. Must hold a valid legal title to the car seeking to trade in
4. Registered to the same owner for the full year preceding the trade-in
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:41 AM   #23
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Good luck finding a similar car that gets better gas milage than that impreza. Rust and lowness be damned. That AWD car would still kill most of the new AWD competitors out there.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:44 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by BryanH View Post
Fantastic...let's start with cargo ships. We impose a tax for every pound of cargo one of these ships wants to offload in our port or truck across the border from Mexico or Canada. That should put manufacturing back on its feet in the US in no time.
Your government already does this. The US tariffs may goods from other countries to try and boost their own.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:59 AM   #25
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This whole thing could break my way for a change ....


I Have a BMW 735i that I have beat to death for years & it gets 15 MPG ave,

So I could go for $ 3,500 Min or the $ 4,500.

I was thinking 4-door Civic SI, $ 19,800 - $ 1,000 Dealer hold back from Honda - $ 4,500 from Gov = Around 14.5K for a New Car.

It looks like it could be a very good deal for me.. I have to look into it some more..

TOMMY B

RALLY ON //////////////
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