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Old 07-02-2009, 10:36 AM   #1
Luke@tirerack
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Default Car & Driver tire test ... 9 low buck offerings take on the Big Dog PS2

Could any of these nine low cost offerings knock off the Pilot Sport PS2?
The Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 in the test size of 225/45-17 costs $192.00.

Here's where the challengers come in price wise:
BF Goodrich G-Force T/A KDW2 ($126)
Bridgestone Potenza RE760 Sport ($132)
Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec ($137)
Falken Azenis RT-615 ($121)
Hankook Ventus V12 EVO ($106)
Kumho Ecsta XS ($120)
Ling Long L688 ($57)
Nitto Invo ($117)
Yokohama S-Drive ($115)

The test covered several different areas of performance. AutoX , skid pad , braking ,
price and ride quality. I am not going to reproduce the entire article but,
here are some of the numbers

AutoX times wet/dry

Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 60.7 / 60.1

BF Goodrich G-Force T/A KDW2 61.3 / 59.6
Bridgestone Potenza RE760 Sport 62.5 / 60.1
Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec 60.8 / 59.3
Falken Azenis RT-615 64.2 / 59.8
Hankook Ventus V12 EVO 61.0 / 59.8
Kumho Ecsta XS 65.4 / 59.0
Ling Long L688 61.1 / 65.8
Nitto Invo 61.9 / 60.5
Yokohama S-Drive 61.5 / 60.3

SKIDPAD, g's wet / dry

Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 0.88 / 0.92

BF Goodrich G-Force T/A KDW2 0.85 / 0.91
Bridgestone Potenza RE760 Sport 0.80 / 0.90
Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec 0.86 / 0.92
Falken Azenis RT-615 0.80 / 0.91
Hankook Ventus V12 EVO 0.87 / 0.93
Kumho Ecsta XS 0.77 / 0.94
Ling Long L688 0.73 / 0.88
Nitto Invo 0.82 / 0.91
Yokohama S-Drive 0.84 / 0.88

after the testing the Car and Driver test drivers and staffers
still consider the Pilot Sport PS2 the top summer performance tire.

Final Results for the challengers

#1 Dunlop Star Spec
#2 Hankook V12 EVO
#3 Kumho Ecsta XS
#4 Bridgestone RE760
#5 BF Goodrich KDW2
#6 Yokohama S-Drive
#7 Falken Azenis
#8 Nitto Invo
#9 Ling Long L688

to see some of our in-house test results use this LINK
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Last edited by Luke@tirerack; 07-02-2009 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 07-02-2009, 11:56 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke@tirerack View Post
after the testing the Car and Driver test drivers and staffers still consider the Pilot Sport PS2 the top summer performance tire... of the tires tested.
Why the Invo and not the NT05?
Why the RE760 and not the RE-11?
Why the V12 EVO and not the R-S3?
Why the S-Drive and not the Neova AD08?

All the above cost less thant the PS2 in the tested size.
Nothing like stacking the deck.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:24 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr01 View Post
Why the Invo and not the NT05?
Why the RE760 and not the RE-11?
Why the V12 EVO and not the R-S3?
Why the S-Drive and not the Neova AD08?

All the above cost less thant the PS2 in the tested size.
Nothing like stacking the deck.
"Could any of these nine low cost offerings knock off the Pilot Sport PS2?"

Reading owns you. The point was whether a lower cost tire could out handle the PS2.
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Old 07-02-2009, 01:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr01 View Post
All the above cost less thant the PS2 in the tested size.
Reading owns who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tora View Post
Reading owns you. The point was whether a lower cost tire could out handle the PS2.
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Old 07-02-2009, 02:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr01 View Post
Reading owns who?
It says "low" cost tire...not "lower" cost.

RE-11 is priced @ $183
Advan @ $182

Definitely not a low cost but yes, lower but not by much.

NT05 - not available in 225/45/17 size. No longer apples to apples.

RS-3 @ $142 - this probably should have been in the test along with the EVO
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Old 07-02-2009, 02:21 PM   #6
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I'm trying to decide right now between the ecsta's and the star specs... thanks for the info.
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Old 07-02-2009, 02:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pie View Post
I'm trying to decide right now between the ecsta's and the star specs... thanks for the info.
If the V12 EVOs are anything like the S1 EVOs that they replaced, I would add them to your list. Great tire for the money.
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Old 07-02-2009, 02:58 PM   #8
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About how long do the PS2's tend to last if you only drive them on the street?
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:10 PM   #9
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Wow, the Ventus V12 EVO looks to be another tire to consider as it is fairly similar in performance to the Star Specs. Definitely looks like I can throw out looking at the Kumho Ecsta XS at this point as I put more weight in how a tire performs in the wet and those really paled in comparison to the others in that test. Now I do realize that they are still much better than a lot of other tires, but still I'd rather go with the Dunlop's or the Hankook's after seeing those results.
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Old 07-05-2009, 08:36 PM   #10
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Wait... are the hankooks that good? Above the ecsta xs and right under the star specs?!?!?!?

Then how come I can't find any reviews on em? lol
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr01 View Post
Why the Invo and not the NT05?
Why the RE760 and not the RE-11?
Why the V12 EVO and not the R-S3?
Why the S-Drive and not the Neova AD08?

All the above cost less thant the PS2 in the tested size.
Nothing like stacking the deck.


jesus christ...what a d000chn0zzle

it aint yer test

stay out
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:24 PM   #12
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the
kumho
XS
is
a
DRY!!!!!!!!
biased
tire

if
you
have
to
drive
in
the
rain
much
then
the
XS
is
likey
NOT
a
proper
tire
choice
for
you
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:36 PM   #13
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can I get some feedback on the sidewall characteristics of the hankooks vs. the re760s? looking for a tire with a stiff enough sidewall that wont roll over on itself but also has fairly good road manners for highway commuting
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:36 AM   #14
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For my driving extreme summer performance is all about dry grip. I drove the XS all last winter and they are great in the rain for commuting, touring, grocery-getting, etc. I just don't push any extreme performance tire that hard in the rain because there are better tires available for rain driving.

If you want the best rain tire don't buy any extreme summer performance tire. I don't care what the full tread tires test like in the rain, extreme summer performance tires loose wet grip a lot faster than any other tire class as they get closer to the wear bars.

That said, as long as an extreme summer performance tire gives me superb dry grip and handling and gets me from point A to point B safely in the rain, I couldn't care less about wet track performance.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yzer View Post
For my driving extreme summer performance is all about dry grip. I drove the XS all last winter and they are great in the rain for commuting, touring, grocery-getting, etc. I just don't push any extreme performance tire that hard in the rain because there are better tires available for rain driving.

If you want the best rain tire don't buy any extreme summer performance tire. I don't care what the full tread tires test like in the rain, extreme summer performance tires loose wet grip a lot faster than any other tire class as they get closer to the wear bars.

That said, as long as an extreme summer performance tire gives me superb dry grip and handling and gets me from point A to point B safely in the rain, I couldn't care less about wet track performance.


and there is ALWAYS somebody that crashes HARD, in the rain, 'cuz they have the wrong tires on the car

those xs get to 1/2 tread and they would be useless in a tropical florida thunderstorm

what YOU think is a good idea, may in fact be a real bad idea for anybody else

I know what driving the wrong tires in the rain is like and it isnt a good idea and it is irresponsible to suggest it to others
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:47 PM   #16
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C&D isn't rating auto-x tires here, they're rating street tires. It's one thing to say dry grip is the most important thing, it's another to say that nothing else matters.
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Old 07-06-2009, 02:02 PM   #17
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I drove MX (predecessor to the XS) all year long for a couple of years at all legal tread depths. The MX was pretty similar to the XS in the rain. I drove plenty of cloudbursts in them and they did fine.

Keep in mind I drove for the conditions at hand, not like Speed Racer. The limitations of any tire need to be respected, which I made abundantly clear in my post.

The wet limitations for these tires apply mainly to the high end of performance values. Daily drive them in the wet at the posted speed limits and you'll do fine.
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Old 07-06-2009, 02:37 PM   #18
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and lotsa idiots crashed using the RT215's in the rain

wet was fine....pouring rain was NOT

when was the last time YOU had to drive through 2+"/hr rain????

happens all the time here
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Old 07-06-2009, 07:43 PM   #19
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You don't list your location on your profile. What are you talking about, hurricanes on the Gulf Coast? I wouldn't call anyone trying to carve corners with extreme performance tires during a hurricane stupid, but I suspect natural selection limits the practice.

Do you honestly think a Star Spec will save your tail in a hurricane where a XS won't?
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Old 07-07-2009, 12:06 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post

jesus christ...what a d000chn0zzle
it aint yer test
stay out
My dog in this fight is, as a C&D subscriber, I want to read articles that are relevant, if not to me then at least to some other section of enthusiasts.

Stacking the PS2 up against a smattering of various performance-oriented tires equals a boring, pointless story that is of relevance to a very limited number of people.

My original post was prior to actually reading the article, and now that I have I'm even more disappointed in C&D. Seems they're losing key staff at an unsustainable rate, and the re-appearance of Davis is not a good thing in this subscriber's view.

Though obviously diminished from even recent years, I believe C&D's budget is still far more than most other enthusiast books, and they could have, and should have, done a better test.

And keep up the personal attacks, they're both amusing and will look especially good to one of your prospective employers one day.
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
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Do you honestly think a Star Spec will save your tail in a hurricane where a XS won't?
yes.....or one of the other tires that can handle a good thunderstorm---which happens in MANY - MANY places in North America in 3 or 4 seasons
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:18 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr01 View Post
My dog in this fight is, as a C&D subscriber, I want to read articles that are relevant, if not to me then at least to some other section of enthusiasts.

Stacking the PS2 up against a smattering of various performance-oriented tires equals a boring, pointless story that is of relevance to a very limited number of people.
you REALLY missed the WHOLE POINT of the exercise

jesus......this is really a problem here....people trying to make a thread say and do what THEY want it to rather than what it IS

sorry if I come off as a bit abrasive, but lets NOT try to turn MORE turds into trophies as is so bloody often the issue, here

the test as done is VALID and makes some great points.....maybe you missed them

maybe you need to call C&D and see if they give a ****....bet they dont
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Old 07-07-2009, 10:45 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr01 View Post
My dog in this fight is, as a C&D subscriber, I want to read articles that are relevant, if not to me then at least to some other section of enthusiasts.

Stacking the PS2 up against a smattering of various performance-oriented tires equals a boring, pointless story that is of relevance to a very limited number of people.
While, I understand your point I would have to disagree. I see it as a different type of test and the more information available the better ... Many people wonder if the extra $$$ for the PS2 is justified. Pitting the PS2 head to head with some less expensive tires allows for each person to see if the qualities the higher dollar tire exhibits are worth the money to them. I for one know that I would never buy the Ling Long L688 or the Nitto Invo but, some people want to know why tire a costs more or how (insert tire name here) does in the wet when compared to something that requires a significantly larger outlay in cash like the PS2. In other words what do ou get for the additional coin

most tire tests are testing like tires. i.e. Big dog v. big dog, it's nice to see a different approach to tire testing
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Old 07-07-2009, 12:12 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke@tirerack View Post
most tire tests are testing like tires. i.e. Big dog v. big dog, it's nice to see a different approach to tire testing
I do get it your point, and thanks for the relpy, Luke.

But I still see this as an apples to oranges comparison, and while that may be the point--paying more for the PS2 gets you better performance--it's one that is dulled by the fact that besides the journo, the only other tester is a Michelin tire engineer.

While the test is also understood to not, specifically, be a measure of what's the best autocross tire among this group, autocross performance is one of the metrics. As such, tested pressures should have been reported and variations thereof ought to have been done to optimize autocross performance for each tire (and for that matter, in each of the metrics), which could have changed the outcome.

I know this latter point is a pipe dream but I can still hope.
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Old 07-07-2009, 01:46 PM   #25
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That's the same thing I blasted Tirerack for earlier though and there's not much you can do about it. There are too many variables here to do truly valid comparisons. How did they handle changes in tire pressure? How does vehicle weight effect their performance? How do they wear in different driving situations (track vs street)? You could list a hundred more. Head to head testing is inherently biased but there's not enough time to really dig deeper.

Personally, I'd rather see just two tires in a comparison but go into a little bit more depth. Try them on two different platforms. Try them on the track and on the street. Try them when it's cold and when it's hot. Find out which tire pressures work well for each. I think it might highlight how subjective a lot of this crap is.
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