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Old 07-18-2009, 04:37 PM   #1
juanmedina
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This is a little comparison between my previous setup and my new setup.

OLD setup yield a best of 7.545@94.155MPH with a 1.75 60'



Quote:
07 WRX TR
Stock VF39 and Sti TMIC
gimmick turbo inlet
TGV deletes by me
Buschur Racing TBE 3" catless (ceramic coated completely)
Perrin EL and uppipe (ceramic coated)
APS 65mm CAI
Hallman MBC
APS dual vent BOV
3mm phenolic spacer
860cc modded injectors

E85
Weight 2820 + 150 driver= 2970lbs
Tire Size= 245/40/18
Elevation 1048
Rel. Humidity 94
Air Temp 65
@ 6052 RPM boost:15.23 Timing: 25
Max boost 22.7 psi

NEW setup yield a 60' 1.842 1/8 7.845 MPH 91.15 1/4 12.142 MPH 115.47



The same mods as before but:
JE forged pistons, compression went from 8:5 to 9:1
BC 272 CAMs
Ported and polish heads
3-angle port job on the valves
Rel. Humidity 81
Air Temp 76
@ 6098 RPM boost:14.32 Timing: 25
Max boost 22.7 psi

The two road dynos overlaid:




I used the same smoothing and same number of datapoints in both road dynos.

Juan Medina
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Last edited by juanmedina; 07-18-2009 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 07-18-2009, 05:45 PM   #2
pooster.online
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great comparison. bookmarked for furthur information. seems like cams added about 10 whp and shifted the curve to the right?
i guess this is just a result of the vf39 already operating outside of its efficiency due to its small size.
please give us your opinion on how cams have changed this set up. from the looks of it, our cars dont seem to respond as well to cams as the 4g63 has.
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:14 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pooster.online View Post
great comparison. bookmarked for furthur information. seems like cams added about 10 whp and shifted the curve to the right?
i guess this is just a result of the vf39 already operating outside of its efficiency due to its small size.
please give us your opinion on how cams have changed this set up. from the looks of it, our cars dont seem to respond as well to cams as the 4g63 has.
actually if you look closer the car lost 10 whp up top but the curve did shift to the right .
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Old 07-19-2009, 11:48 AM   #4
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Wondering if part of that was from the porting as well...looks like you lost some area under the curve from about 4600 rpms on.
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:55 AM   #5
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first thoughts are porting and who did them.

seconds thought is towards the dyno numbers...they are just come from data logging a single gear pull, correct?

third is that you have the exact same peak boost. Aren't you in fact off the scale of the factory sensor? if so, we have no idea what you actually were running for peak on either setup.

I can go on but with the given data and the large ballpark of speculation and loose variables; I'll stop there.
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:17 AM   #6
juanmedina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
first thoughts are porting and who did them.

seconds thought is towards the dyno numbers...they are just come from data logging a single gear pull, correct?

third is that you have the exact same peak boost. Aren't you in fact off the scale of the factory sensor? if so, we have no idea what you actually were running for peak on either setup.

I can go on but with the given data and the large ballpark of speculation and loose variables; I'll stop there.
The port job was done by a guy that specializes in porting SR20 heads, I have pictures of Topspeeds racing heads and with a visual comparison to my heads they look almost the same.

Yes the data comes from a single 3rd gear pull, but I have tons of logs and they all look very similar.

I don't know what is max boost reading of the factory sensor, but I know I have hit 23psi before.
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:19 AM   #7
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You can only tell but so much of a port by looking at it in a picture...seeing it in person/3-D gives a lot more detail. Even more important is using your finger or a flowbench/pitot tube.
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:31 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by 3MI Racing View Post
You can only tell but so much of a port by looking at it in a picture...seeing it in person/3-D gives a lot more detail. Even more important is using your finger or a flowbench/pitot tube.
I had Topspeed's racing heads in my hands, and I took the pics. If I remember correctly the same day I went to take a look at the progress on my heads and they were almost identical. I tried to get them flowbench but nobody around here had a flowbench and as you know the fixturing is expensive.

I remember someone that said, that is really hard to hurt anything even with a bad port job. Where are my gains at least from the cams?

And pics of the heads for reference.









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Old 07-20-2009, 10:41 AM   #9
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Damn those are awesome numbers on a 39!! I'd be interested in seeing dynos on the parts separately.... You know, vf39 pump gas; vf39 pump gas + cams, and VF39 + cams + pump gas.
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Old 07-20-2009, 01:08 PM   #10
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Stock MAP sensor will max right around there depending on your atmospheric pressure. IMO, you REALLY should have either a 3 bar sensor or MBC+gauge running above 20-22psi range.

Suppose some compensations kick in and your target boost is higher than the sensor limit. The BCS will just keep adding more and more WGDC and you end up overboosting.
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Old 07-20-2009, 01:23 PM   #11
juanmedina
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Originally Posted by scramjett View Post
Damn those are awesome numbers on a 39!! I'd be interested in seeing dynos on the parts separately.... You know, vf39 pump gas; vf39 pump gas + cams, and VF39 + cams + pump gas.
Yeah there are good numbers and they are proven at the track. Does road dyno number are the same if not lower than a mustang dyno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merp View Post
Stock MAP sensor will max right around there depending on your atmospheric pressure. IMO, you REALLY should have either a 3 bar sensor or MBC+gauge running above 20-22psi range.

Suppose some compensations kick in and your target boost is higher than the sensor limit. The BCS will just keep adding more and more WGDC and you end up overboosting.
I will look into getting a Boost gauge

TY
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:04 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I had Topspeed's racing heads in my hands, and I took the pics. If I remember correctly the same day I went to take a look at the progress on my heads and they were almost identical. I tried to get them flowbench but nobody around here had a flowbench and as you know the fixturing is expensive.

I remember someone that said, that is really hard to hurt anything even with a bad port job. Where are my gains at least from the cams?
Simply put there's a lot an untrained eye (finger) will miss. I don't know how many hours you've spent porting or heads you have done, so I won't question your judgement on the heads being 'nearly' identical.

Also, I don't know who made that horribly incorrect quote! A port job can change a lot of things and make things worse.

So with that being said and we know the cams make gains...where did all those gains go?...hence my question about the port job
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3MI Racing View Post
Simply put there's a lot an untrained eye (finger) will miss. I don't know how many hours you've spent porting or heads you have done, so I won't question your judgement on the heads being 'nearly' identical.

Also, I don't know who made that horribly incorrect quote! A port job can change a lot of things and make things worse.

So with that being said and we know the cams make gains...where did all those gains go?...hence my question about the port job
My thoughts exactly. A port job can and will make a difference...if it is a good job it will be a positive one. If it is a bad job you can really screw things up and actually end up running WORSE than before, losing low end, losing mid range, screwing up the airflow, etc. There is a little bit of an art to porting heads and you really have to know what you are doing.
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:45 PM   #14
juanmedina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3MI Racing View Post
Simply put there's a lot an untrained eye (finger) will miss. I don't know how many hours you've spent porting or heads you have done, so I won't question your judgement on the heads being 'nearly' identical.

Also, I don't know who made that horribly incorrect quote! A port job can change a lot of things and make things worse.

So with that being said and we know the cams make gains...where did all those gains go?...hence my question about the port job
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
My thoughts exactly. A port job can and will make a difference...if it is a good job it will be a positive one. If it is a bad job you can really screw things up and actually end up running WORSE than before, losing low end, losing mid range, screwing up the airflow, etc. There is a little bit of an art to porting heads and you really have to know what you are doing.
I just know he specializes in porting SR20 heads, but he also ports other import + the muscle crowd around here using him for head work as well.

The problem is that there is not other car that I know of running a build head and a VF39 other than mine and Rene's. So there is no data, experience and knowledge of how a setup like mine will respond.

Also, My car is E-tune so that may have something to do with my car not performing as it should! Or may be the turbo is just max out. Will 60 degree weather vs 80-90 degree weather have as much difference as my road dyno numbers show?
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I just know he specializes in porting SR20 heads, but he also ports other import + the muscle crowd around here using him for head work as well.

The problem is that there is not other car that I know of running a build head and a VF39 other than mine and Rene's. So there is no data, experience and knowledge of how a setup like mine will respond.

Also, My car is E-tune so that may have something to do with my car not performing as it should! Or may be the turbo is just max out. Will 60 degree weather vs 80-90 degree weather have as much difference as my road dyno numbers show?
Perhaps Juan. Being a very humid summer here, my car feels like a run of the mill stage 2 car when heating up in traffic. But when the car first gets to temperature, and especially when it tapers into the high 50's at night, the car is much faster and responsive.

For reference, my 68 airboy was done in 78 degree, low humidity weather and holds 336 whp at redline. The other day in 90 degree weather with high humidity I only made 328 tapering to 305
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:10 PM   #16
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Perhaps Juan. Being a very humid summer here, my car feels like a run of the mill stage 2 car when heating up in traffic. But when the car first gets to temperature, and especially when it tapers into the high 50's at night, the car is much faster and responsive.

For reference, my 68 airboy was done in 78 degree, low humidity weather and holds 336 whp at redline. The other day in 90 degree weather with high humidity I only made 328 tapering to 305
I am confused, do you meant that at 78 degrees you hold 336 whp at red line and that at 90 degree you only hold 305 whp at redline?
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:18 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I am confused, do you meant that at 78 degrees you hold 336 whp at red line and that at 90 degree you only hold 305 whp at redline?
Yes, the other day in horrible weather it was not quick at all. The drive to work, the car is a little beast. At lunch, the car is slow. I just got home and its 68 degrees right now, car feels stout as ever. It seems this turbo is very finiky with temperature and boost
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:18 PM   #18
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Juan you NEED TO STOP logging Manifold Relative Pressure (corrected) IT MAXES at 22.7 at around 14.5psi atmopsheric presure.

Noticed how it is strange that 22.7 is the max you see? I have about 20 logs that show the same thing and a thread on romraider that says the same thing.

you either need to log manifold relative pressure (direct) or log both atmospheric pressure and manifold absolute pressure (direct)

Logging Manifold Relative pressure (CORRECTED) will clip at 22.7ish psi at 14.51psi atmospheric pressure. Therefore you might HAVE been running more boost and less now.

Don't tell me you can't log it - you can - if you can't you need to update your romraider.

-jerod
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Also, My car is E-tune so that may have something to do with my car not performing as it should! Or may be the turbo is just max out. Will 60 degree weather vs 80-90 degree weather have as much difference as my road dyno numbers show?
All this stuff can and will effect how the car runs. Jsarv is also correct. You could be running MUCH more than what your logs show. Just log manifold absolute pressure and subtract out whatever atmospheric is. That will tell you what you are running. Time to upgrade to a AEM or similar map sensor. There are 3.5 and 5 bar sensor out there. Your tuner will have to modify the tune for it though. Pretty simple stuff.
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSarv View Post
Juan you NEED TO STOP logging Manifold Relative Pressure (corrected) IT MAXES at 22.7 at around 14.5psi atmopsheric presure.

Noticed how it is strange that 22.7 is the max you see? I have about 20 logs that show the same thing and a thread on romraider that says the same thing.

you either need to log manifold relative pressure (direct) or log both atmospheric pressure and manifold absolute pressure (direct)

Logging Manifold Relative pressure (CORRECTED) will clip at 22.7ish psi at 14.51psi atmospheric pressure. Therefore you might HAVE been running more boost and less now.

Don't tell me you can't log it - you can - if you can't you need to update your romraider.

-jerod
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
All this stuff can and will effect how the car runs. Jsarv is also correct. You could be running MUCH more than what your logs show. Just log manifold absolute pressure and subtract out whatever atmospheric is. That will tell you what you are running. Time to upgrade to a AEM or similar map sensor. There are 3.5 and 5 bar sensor out there. Your tuner will have to modify the tune for it though. Pretty simple stuff.
Will do! I have Cobb RACE tunner and that is what I use to log my pulls. I will try tomorrow the other method to see how much boost I am really running.

TY
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:02 PM   #21
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I have seen 20-30 whp swings in my airboy road dyno's, between 60 degree weather= when I make big power faster spool up, and 80-85 degree weather=less power almost even more turbo lag...
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
All this stuff can and will effect how the car runs. Jsarv is also correct. You could be running MUCH more than what your logs show. Just log manifold absolute pressure and subtract out whatever atmospheric is. That will tell you what you are running. Time to upgrade to a AEM or similar map sensor. There are 3.5 and 5 bar sensor out there. Your tuner will have to modify the tune for it though. Pretty simple stuff.

He doesn't need to - he just needs to log the correct parameter. I can log up to 24.65psi @ 14.2psi atmospheric pressure... After that I just watch my boost gauge as a reference..

I haven't hit my 5v MAP CEL so the ECU and MAP sensor are still OK - Everyone will disagree but the stock map sensor IS a 5v sensor...
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:20 PM   #23
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Are you running the same tune as before the new pistons, headwork and cams?
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:24 PM   #24
juanmedina
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Are you running the same tune as before the new pistons, headwork and cams?
Is supposed to be different but I don't know what CAM changed
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:32 PM   #25
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I would say judging by the graphs - minus temperature - you might have been running more boost...
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