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Old 07-21-2009, 08:57 AM   #1
Dirty25RS
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Default AutoX SM class 04 STi build...Discussion

After searching aplenty, I have decided to start a new thread to discuss my current intentions with my 04 STi. I want to Optimize it for SM class AutoX. It is currently in BSP class.

I want to discuss setup options with those more experience than myself, both with driving STi's in this class and setting them up.

Now I will post my setup plan. If you object to any of my choices or think there is a better option feel free to let me know. Thats the whole point.

Wheels: 17x9
Tires: Hoosier slicks for that size
Brakes: Stock Brembo's (have). Hawk HP Plus pads (have). SS lines . MC/Booster brace
Suspension: Tein Flex coilovers EDFC (have),
adjustable front & rear swaybars from 25.5-28.5 adjustable effective diameter
Lots o' bushings (need advice on specifics)
tower braces (need advice)
Turbo: HTA3076R (too big? please advise)
Intercooler: Please Advise
Fuel: Do I need a new fuel pump? what size injectors?
Engine Management: New AEM EMS with electric throttle, speed density hopefully
Octane Boost: Meth/Alcohol Injection (is it worth it for SM? advise)
Engine: Can the stock motor keep up with what this turbo can dish out? I want this system to be optimized so I'm going to need the turbo charger operating in its proper range, can the engine handle its proper range? Do i need new internals? sleeved block? dry sump (lol too rich for my blood)?
Tranny/Clutch: New clutch? which one? PPG gears necesary? details? I am a pretty good shifter, I heel-toe shift at AutoX effectively.
Anything else?: Reinforcement? safety? stuff in previous categories I forgot? Reliability?

PS. I am very serious about this. Once I formalize a plan you will see results. I've had this car since it was new and have been waiting to be able to affordto do something like this and now is the time. Done with school, no kids, cheap house payment, decent job.

Thank You.
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Last edited by Dirty25RS; 07-21-2009 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:08 AM   #2
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The amount of grip a 275 or bigger A6 compound generates will make the 2004 STI wheel hubs (and baby Jesus) cry. If you're really hardset to run and be competitive in SM, I'd highly consider upgrading to the 2005+ hubs.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:13 AM   #3
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In my humble opinion, that drivetrain should go into a GC chassis. Not for looks.....for weight savings. The wheels may be a bit too narrow. Downsize the turbo for a quicker spool and more torque at the expense of top end power. Spherical bearings for any/all moving suspension parts. Any EM that will let you control all aspects and give you a 2 step limiter (+possibly ALS) would be a help as well. A minimal cage for some safety but more rigidity will pay off in a big way, especially with non-compliant bearings on the suspension.

Make it ugly, make it light, and make it fast.....Overall of that, make it reliable....SM is getting to the point where reliability plays a role in getting that next run to improve upon.

Jay Storm
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:14 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by AmeenR View Post
The amount of grip a 275 or bigger A6 compound generates will make the 2004 STI wheel hubs (and baby Jesus) cry. If you're really hardset to run and be competitive in SM, I'd highly consider upgrading to the 2005+ hubs.

OK. Thank You. I will research what all that entails.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:17 AM   #5
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In my humble opinion, that drivetrain should go into a GC chassis. Not for looks.....for weight savings. The wheels may be a bit too narrow. Downsize the turbo for a quicker spool and more torque at the expense of top end power. Spherical bearings for any/all moving suspension parts. Any EM that will let you control all aspects and give you a 2 step limiter (+possibly ALS) would be a help as well. A minimal cage for some safety but more rigidity will pay off in a big way, especially with non-compliant bearings on the suspension.

Make it ugly, make it light, and make it fast.....Overall of that, make it reliable....SM is getting to the point where reliability plays a role in getting that next run to improve upon.

Jay Storm

Were you behind me on 271 Sunday afternoon from Northfield?
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:23 AM   #6
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With SM being in the title...first thing I'll ask as an engine guy is what is your target weight? keep in mind the weight, drivetrain, aspiration and displacement rule in SM.

Personally I'd through the compression ratio way up for on and off boost power as well as improved turbo response. With that said, the shorter the rod ratio the quicker that turbo will spool and the more low end torque you'll have.

I'll give some more input once I get more info...also what fuel will you be running on? water injection?
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:25 AM   #7
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In my humble opinion, that drivetrain should go into a GC chassis. Not for looks.....for weight savings. The wheels may be a bit too narrow. Downsize the turbo for a quicker spool and more torque at the expense of top end power. Jay Storm

I agree with you 100% on the GC weight reduction, but you got me. Im just not willing to go that far at this time. The build will be on this body.

What turbo would you recommend?
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:28 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
With SM being in the title...first thing I'll ask as an engine guy is what is your target weight? keep in mind the weight, drivetrain, aspiration and displacement rule in SM.

Personally I'd through the compression ratio way up for on and off boost power as well as improved turbo response. With that said, the shorter the rod ratio the quicker that turbo will spool and the more low end torque you'll have.

I'll give some more input once I get more info...also what fuel will you be running on? water injection?
I was thinking of multiple fuel maps. for street, good ole' ohio Donofrio certified 93 octane, for race...E85 or race fuel.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:30 AM   #9
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ok so at least E85 for race...

I'd put it north of 9.5:1. I'd go 10:1 if you can and just have a low boost street map.

still need to work out target weight to get allowed displacement. If you might be going into the motor, you may as well know what you can get
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Old 07-21-2009, 10:26 AM   #10
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How competitive do you want to be? If this is an attempt to win national events and have a car that would trophy at nationals you have a lot of work ahead of you. Knowing what some of the top SM cars put down for power, you are shooting for 350-400whp, but I'd try to get a whole lot of area under the curve and power down low before worrying about peak numbers. I'm not a motor guy, so I'll leave the build recommendations to those who know more.

Suspension is going to be a big thing to think about. You already have some coilovers, but I'd toss 'em right out. They aren't good enough for the level of competition you are getting into. The Flex's do not have the range of adjustability you need to fine tune the car. Consider a set of Ground Control built coilovers with Koni DA's or just call RCE and go straight for the new JRZ dampers they are carrying. You will be needing springs in the 600-800lb/in range, if not stiffer.
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Old 07-21-2009, 10:54 AM   #11
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Damn you for setting up a car to destroy me in the class I`m already ****ty in! hahahha

If you build this, you know I`m going to need to step my game up (well already do need to badly) but even more! I wanna beat Evo- Dave every week eventually to be honest... I have a LOT of work to do though... I`m changing some suspension (bumping up the rears 100 pounds more) and a better alignment. A little more camber in the front with toe out for when I`m actually racing, and a little less camber in the rear with zero toe. Then I need the response. It is killing me.

Storm, what 15x10ish wheels can I run with the 06-07 brakes? I would LOVE to be able to run 275/35/16 A6s not next season but the following. Would help with gearing and weight a lot.
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:00 AM   #12
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PPG gears necesary?
Yes, so you can sell me your 6 speed!
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
In my humble opinion, that drivetrain should go into a GC chassis. Not for looks.....for weight savings. The wheels may be a bit too narrow. Downsize the turbo for a quicker spool and more torque at the expense of top end power. Spherical bearings for any/all moving suspension parts. Any EM that will let you control all aspects and give you a 2 step limiter (+possibly ALS) would be a help as well. A minimal cage for some safety but more rigidity will pay off in a big way, especially with non-compliant bearings on the suspension.

Make it ugly, make it light, and make it fast.....Overall of that, make it reliable....SM is getting to the point where reliability plays a role in getting that next run to improve upon.

Jay Storm

This, but don't pick the ever popular 2.5RS. Get a 95 L or there abouts. I have a 2.0 STI swapped RS and with the easy weight loss stuff done it's at 2900 lbs with a full tank of fuel (no driver though). The 95 L weighs 300 lbs less than the RS so imagine where you could be with the right weight loss. Minimum weight for the 2.0 is 2820, the 2.5 puts you up to 2970. Weight loss is your friend here, so whatever you haven't done yet, do it now. You should be shooting for under 2970 so you can add weight where you want it.

Definitely need a new suspension. AST, or GC like others have said. I'm testing some KW V3's, but I think in the end the individual height and preload of the AST is the way to go. Ditch the big bars and go with big springs. On my 2900 lbs SM car I'm shooting for 900 lbs in the front 750 in the rear with 22mm bar in the front and 17mm bar in the rear.

The 2.5 should spool the GT30 (76 or 71 will work) just fine. Run E85 and you'll be pushing 400 wtq and spool just below 4k. With the slicks you should be running you should be exiting the corners right at or just into the full boost range. Just remember to hit the go peddle a half second before you want the power and you'll be fine.

Ditch the 17x9's. Get 18x10 or even 18x10.5 and run a 285/30/18. The gearing will be shorter to help with that GT30 and you can lower the car more without as much worry of rubbing. If you're running the right spring rates you won't have much to worry about rubbing either.

For the brakes, you could consider the swap to the lighter weight brakeman rotors. The rears remove the ebrake and you can run 15 inch wheels over them. They still stop good enough for autox and you can run the 275/35/15 tires. Lowers the car without affecting roll centers. I'd consider this a later mod since you'll probably spend a few seasons just dialing everything in and learning how to drive it with all the changes.

I'd say the roll cage isn't worth it in the GD chassis just yet. The strut tower bracing isn't really noticable on your chassis, but at these grip levels it probably won't hurt.

Use the Spearco top mount. Quicker spool, less weight, and it WILL support the GT30 just fine.

Upgrade the fuel pump to a Walbro and get some 1100cc injectors for that E85. It's roughly a 30% increase in flow level when you go to the booze, so if you need 800cc injectors for a GT30 then you'd need 1040cc injectors for the same car running on E85.

Stock motor will take it for a while. It'll eventually pop at that level. When it does some slightly higher compression pistons, reworked heads, and GSC cams/valve springs should be in order. No need for a sleeved block or anything else exotic. Get the upgraded crank for your shop of choice and set the new redline at 8k or 8.5k. With the gearing, tires, turbo, and cams you should be able to make decent power and get to high 60's in 2nd.

Stock clutch will work, but if you're tearing it apart anyway, go with a basic stage 1/2 upgrade and a lightened flywheel. The STi clutch is good to an average of 400 wtq. If you want this to last for a long time may I suggest the Excedy stage 2 cerametallic HD from Oakos. Decent price, good torque capacity, and should last a while.

Get the car reliable like Storm said. Get it running good, get the suspension setup, then worry about misc items. Then, come down to one of the OVR Autox events where I run and have some fun This year (and maybe next) we're running a SM Street Tire class called SMS. You can show up, don't have to change tires, and run against a few evo's, BMW M3's, turbo civics, and my swapped RS. Good testing ground

Sorry for the shotgun approach, I started replying to Storms post, then went down to your original list and worked from there:P If you do happen to come to an OVR event I'll be happy to answer any questions (not like you'd want my advice or anything )
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:43 PM   #14
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How competitive do you want to be?
I have a lot of improving to do as a driver. So I dont expect to be competitive at nationals anytime soon no matter what I'm driving. So I am trying to build a car that is up to par with the other SM cars locally so i can understand how far off of them I really am. In BSP class I'm running against vettes with slicks and other STi's more stock than mine so I dont feel i have a good baseline to compare to. There are more data points in SM (yes, that's all you are to me is data points, lol j/k).

I also want to make the move to SM because I have a fascination with engine tuning and have done everything I want to do with the stock engine/induction/exhaust/fuel hardware.

Thank you guys for all your input. I'm getting a good idea of what it takes to build a championship quality SM STi. I am on a certain budget so I wont be able to make all these changes at once. It will have to be incremental. But at least I have direction.


So some think the HTA3076R is too big, some think its right. who has practical experience with it?
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Dirty25RS View Post
I have a lot of improving to do as a driver. So I dont expect to be competitive at nationals anytime soon no matter what I'm driving. So I am trying to build a car that is up to par with the other SM cars locally so i can understand how far off of them I really am. In BSP class I'm running against vettes with slicks and other STi's more stock than mine so I dont feel i have a good baseline to compare to. There are more data points in SM (yes, that's all you are to me is data points, lol j/k).

I also want to make the move to SM because I have a fascination with engine tuning and have done everything I want to do with the stock engine/induction/exhaust/fuel hardware.

Thank you guys for all your input. I'm getting a good idea of what it takes to build a championship quality SM STi. I am on a certain budget so I wont be able to make all these changes at once. It will have to be incremental. But at least I have direction.


So some think the HTA3076R is too big, some think its right. who has practical experience with it?
Show up to other regions that have health SM classes (or in OVR's case an SMS class) to get some extra data points.

Talk to the guys at TiC. Their One-Lap car was originally an autox car with a GT30 bolted to it and it worked pretty good

It really depends on what you want. If you're region loves miatas and hate's corvettes smaller would be better, but if you're going for national glory (eventually) then I wouldn't go much smaller than a 20g/GT30.
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:28 PM   #16
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SM is very competetive in my region, but some of the top drivers have very little mods.
My buddy's STI wins class a lot, motor is basically stock minus boost controller and intake, and a tune. It's my opinion that you improve as a driver before you mod heavily. You may drive worse since you won't be driving at or near the "limits" of the car. I have a wrx wagon, and i'm middle of the pack in SM, of about 13-15 cars.
I seriously considered the 5x114 hub conversion, you have much more options for large rims, which in turn enables you to run the kumho r-comps, king of sticky in 285 series or larger. Do a bit of asking around though, i know the hawaii region doesn't have to contend with fully built subarus unlike other regions.
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty25RS View Post
I have a lot of improving to do as a driver. So I dont expect to be competitive at nationals anytime soon no matter what I'm driving. So I am trying to build a car that is up to par with the other SM cars locally so i can understand how far off of them I really am. In BSP class I'm running against vettes with slicks and other STi's more stock than mine so I dont feel i have a good baseline to compare to. There are more data points in SM (yes, that's all you are to me is data points, lol j/k).

I also want to make the move to SM because I have a fascination with engine tuning and have done everything I want to do with the stock engine/induction/exhaust/fuel hardware.

Thank you guys for all your input. I'm getting a good idea of what it takes to build a championship quality SM STi. I am on a certain budget so I wont be able to make all these changes at once. It will have to be incremental. But at least I have direction.


So some think the HTA3076R is too big, some think its right. who has practical experience with it?
Well if you're on a budget then I guess you'll have to make the suspension work as is. Get yourself a set of 12k/10k springs to put on there as a decent start. When you work your driving ability up and the suspension becomes the limiting factor you can spend the money on the right parts. When I got to that point in my own car a new suspension dropped ~2 seconds off my time on a 45 second course .



Quote:
Originally Posted by subydude View Post
Talk to the guys at TiC. Their One-Lap car was originally an autox car with a GT30 bolted to it and it worked pretty good
Tony's car is fast, but its not a class-built autocross car. I remember it from the Subaru Challenge event last year at SIA. Its an amazingly fast machine and he set FTD, but top PAX went to the ST* cars that were purpose-built for a class.




Remember that response/spool time is more important than that peak number. I couldn't find much info about the HTA3076r, but from the little I did find its too big. Yes it will easily get you the hp numbers you want/need to be competitive in SM. No it will not give you the response you need to be competitive. Your competition will be across the finish line before your turbo spools up. Look for something with a 44-49lb/min wheel. The Blouch Dom 2.5r comes to mind as does the Element GT49 or any decent td05-20g. With a conservative tune on pump gas you'll be driving around with 300-320 at the wheels. When you switch maps and add higher octane fuel you'll be in the 350-380hp range needed to be competitive in SM.
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Old 07-21-2009, 08:30 PM   #18
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For SM I'd actually say keep the '04 chassis. With the minimum weight rules where they are I think you could make a nationally competitive '04 STI if you were to put enough work (and a good driver) into it. The benefits of the '04 chassis are that it is much stiffer than the GC chassis and you can't put in enough bracing in SM to help it out enough. That's just my opinion, I'm sure others will disagree.

For a turbo with the 2.5 I'd have to go with nothing larger than an 18G. I think the 20G would be great, but the lag would hurt too much. With E85 the power you could get out of an 18G should be sufficient, especially if you built the motor like HomemadeWRX is saying. I'd stick with around 9.2 - 9.4 : 1 compression myself.
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Old 07-22-2009, 07:23 PM   #19
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What 15x10ish wheels can I run with the 06-07 brakes? I would LOVE to be able to run 275/35/15 A6s not next season but the following. Would help with gearing a lot and weight is a bonus.
Bump for anyone?
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:48 AM   #20
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I'm not sure how much detail you will find, but it may be worth trying to look up Cobb's "Cone Basher".

Rob
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:46 AM   #21
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yeah, the cone basher is a fairly old project but I think sport compact car wrote it up way back...
Really won't tell you much that you won't already know...plus the rules have changed since that car was made...back in 02?

Drivetrain and engine get paired together in my engine oriented mind...either short gearing and lots of rpm to stretch our the gear or a a low rpm grunt motor with longer gearing to stretch it out.

Part of why I instantly asked for your weight...displacement limitation
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Old 07-23-2009, 11:53 AM   #22
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yeah, the cone basher is a fairly old project but I think sport compact car wrote it up way back...
Really won't tell you much that you won't already know...plus the rules have changed since that car was made...back in 02?

Drivetrain and engine get paired together in my engine oriented mind...either short gearing and lots of rpm to stretch our the gear or a a low rpm grunt motor with longer gearing to stretch it out.

Part of why I instantly asked for your weight...displacement limitation
The project started back then, but it has morphed greatly since. I believe the car now has an 04 or 05 body and lots of updates since. There is plenty to learn from that build.

Rob
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Old 07-23-2009, 01:10 PM   #23
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Bump for anyone?
Diamond Racing Wheels will do 15x10's with custom offsets and won't break the bank.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:42 PM   #24
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If I read the rules right and did the calculations correctly, the minimum weight for an SM AWD 2.5 liter turbo car is 2970 lbs. Am I correct? If so, then a GC chassis seems like you would have to add weight to the car.
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:52 AM   #25
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Octane Boost: Meth/Alcohol Injection (is it worth it for SM? advise)
AFAIK, meth isnt allowed in any class.
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