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Old 12-16-2009, 08:46 AM   #126
TDagen
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Did you guys tighten your spark plug gaps down .028 was too big for my setup , I had to tighten them down to .023-.024 .... I think it was spark plug blow out from the e85...
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:52 PM   #127
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^I think this would fix your above 28 psi high rpm problem... Mine ran fine until I turned the boost up...then at higher rpm 6000+ it would look like it was knocking or misfiring but it was just my spark blowing out from the e85....
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:53 PM   #128
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he tried a set gapped to .018. Did not fix the issue.
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:33 PM   #129
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In theory would this set-up work with a stock ej207 twinscroll header... I.E. Could I have a custom rotated uppipes/wastegates blah blah made to fit the stock header?
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Old 12-16-2009, 06:57 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnstman View Post
he tried a set gapped to .018. Did not fix the issue.
Perhaps its an issue with coil pack dwell time settings in the AEM. I have witnessed these to be off on the evo's and wouldn't be surprised if they were on subaru's as well.

I would check those next.

Okada upgrades wouldn't be a bad idea either.
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:35 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by project_skyline View Post
Perhaps its an issue with coil pack dwell time settings in the AEM. I have witnessed these to be off on the evo's and wouldn't be surprised if they were on subaru's as well.

I would check those next.

Okada upgrades wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Thats what im being told as well. Im going to get a set of known working good coil packs and then some irridium plugs and adjust dwell. I was originally led to believe you cant adjust coil dwell but I have been told by multiple people now that you can. So thats up next on the list. Im going to get a few miles on the car now then go back for more tuning in early february.

The only thing about the okada coils is that they are $600+ and for that price I might as well well for Spark Tech to release their subaru options.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:16 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubuff View Post
Thats what im being told as well. Im going to get a set of known working good coil packs and then some irridium plugs and adjust dwell. I was originally led to believe you cant adjust coil dwell but I have been told by multiple people now that you can. So thats up next on the list. Im going to get a few miles on the car now then go back for more tuning in early february.

The only thing about the okada coils is that they are $600+ and for that price I might as well well for Spark Tech to release their subaru options.


I had to adjust the coil dwell in my motec m4 on my car to get it to rev above 7500rpm..... then, 37psi and 680whp was not a problem....


dwell is one of those weird things that people don't think of sometimes, and, the more power you make, the more all the little things matter.


Set the dwell time to the correct setting if you can first and you can check each coil for resistance across the primary and secondary to see if you have weak ones....


The other side to this is if the coils show the correct resistance, and you are able to correct the dwell time (if it is off some), you will know if you have the ignition strength to fire the mixture or not. If you don't, you will have to step up the amperage/Mj capability of the ignition system....


The thing is, with the power you have made thus far on stock coils and 28psi, I wouldn't doubt it if you are close to the end of what the coils will fire.... there is a tremendous amount of fuel volume difference to be ignited when going from Gasoline to E85......





Here is the other thing on spark plugs from an NGK engineer:


{what are the advantages/disadvantages of running a projected/nonprojected plugs in boosted applications?

also, does e-85 fule require a different heat range?}



The theory is that typically for street driven applications a projected insulator will be beneficial as it positions the spark farther into the combustion chamber promoting better ignitiability as it will be closer to the densest part of the mixture. at low speeds it also helps keep the firing end of the plug hotter preventing fouling. This is helpful in high power cars that run very cold plugs on the street. Also as the intake valve opens and the fuel charge rushes in the plug has a greater area being exposed so as to cool down more.

The only downside is that by putting the plug into a higher turbulence area you may also raise the required voltage needed to fire the plug. In very high boost cars this can lead to misfire (spark blowout), especailly with a weak stock type ignition system or over heating of the ground electrode at high rpms (because the ground path is longer), especailly with a weak stock type ignition system. This can sometimes be helped by switching to a fine wire type iriidum plug which reduces that voltage requirement back down and also lowering the plug gaps.

I have also heard from drag racers on a couple applications that they were able to run a non-projected plug and add in a degreee or two of spark timing and pick up some substantial horsepower increases.

So really I would say if it is a street driven vehicle try to run a projected plug. If it is a all out race car you may benefit from a non projected type plug (or if running nitrous). Of course this rule is not always valid as cylinder head turbulence, quench area, etc can sometimes change this recommendation.


Generally alchohols require a colder heat range to be fitted because they do not absorb as much heat when evaporating, causing higher cylinder temps. With E-85 though we have seen most applications requiring the same heat range. Just run the original heat range plug and be sure to check the appearance of the firing end after 50 miles street use or a couple drag passes. Hope this helps, thank you.
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:29 AM   #133
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Dustin, your coils are dumb
They are not smart enough to to understand dwell
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:40 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
Dustin, your coils are dumb
They are not smart enough to to understand dwell
I know those damn dumb coils, they just dont understand!

So on a serious note. Subaru coils are "dumb" meaning they rely on the ecu for dwell settings correct?
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Old 12-17-2009, 01:59 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubuff View Post
I know those damn dumb coils, they just dont understand!

So on a serious note. Subaru coils are "dumb" meaning they rely on the ecu for dwell settings correct?
Call me tomorrow.. I will go over it with you.

Jr
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:19 AM   #136
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I say go for 40 psi.
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Old 12-17-2009, 09:48 PM   #137
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Sorry I haven't posted the graphs yet- I forgot. I will try to post them tomorrow.
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:12 PM   #138
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post post post
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:20 PM   #139
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Lets see that graph!
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Old 12-20-2009, 06:02 PM   #140
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this thread is useless without the boost turned up
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Old 12-20-2009, 11:14 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garagedefeat View Post
this thread is useless without the boost turned up

AMEN!!!

haha....

but, you gotta keep a spark lit if you are going to make power at high boost...

...much easier said than done.....
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:48 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RYNOMOTO View Post
AMEN!!!

haha....

but, you gotta keep a spark lit if you are going to make power at high boost...

...much easier said than done.....
it *should* light off if you don't rev it to the stratosphere. Unless there is an actual problem w/ the ignition system.
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Old 12-21-2009, 06:06 PM   #143
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Dustin,,
How's your car running? I didn't see you at Jeff's this weekend to check the car out.
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Old 12-21-2009, 06:18 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RYNOMOTO View Post
Generally alchohols require a colder heat range to be fitted because they do not absorb as much heat when evaporating, causing higher cylinder temps. With E-85 though we have seen most applications requiring the same heat range. Just run the original heat range plug and be sure to check the appearance of the firing end after 50 miles street use or a couple drag passes. Hope this helps, thank you.
Care to elaborate on this? It's my understanding that alcohols have a much higher heat of vaporization, and AFR. Both would produce a cooler charge upon vaporization/evaporation. However, alcohols have a significantly lower HHV, ie, less heat energy is released per mass during combustion. Just going through some numbers for ethanol and methanol vs gas, and the total energy from the HHV compensating for the AFR is slightly higher for ethanol, and even higher for meth. This would explain both the need for colder plugs on most alcohols, with similar ranges between gas/e85.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:52 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Merp View Post
Care to elaborate on this? It's my understanding that alcohols have a much higher heat of vaporization, and AFR. Both would produce a cooler charge upon vaporization/evaporation. However, alcohols have a significantly lower HHV, ie, less heat energy is released per mass during combustion. Just going through some numbers for ethanol and methanol vs gas, and the total energy from the HHV compensating for the AFR is slightly higher for ethanol, and even higher for meth. This would explain both the need for colder plugs on most alcohols, with similar ranges between gas/e85.

Hey Merp....

That was a quote from an NGK engineer, not me.....


....Sounds like you pretty much answered your own question though, or am I misunderstanding what you are commenting on or asking about?


I think an NGK #6 or #7 will work well with an E85 combo....
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:25 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RYNOMOTO View Post
Hey Merp....

That was a quote from an NGK engineer, not me.....


....Sounds like you pretty much answered your own question though, or am I misunderstanding what you are commenting on or asking about?


I think an NGK #6 or #7 will work well with an E85 combo....
Whoops, missed that part.

It's somewhat of an answer to the question, but what I'm unsure of is the effect of the cooler charge on combustion temps vs the higher hhv output as they occur in different areas of the motor. I've heard people say hotter plugs due to the cooler charge, so this caught my attention.

I've used 6's and 7's on e85, and had bad blowout on 7's with a big gap, and went to 6's with a small gap with better results, but didn't have a chance to try out the 7's with a small gap before the motor imploded (seems unrelated), so my personal research is still inconclusive.
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:22 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merp View Post
Whoops, missed that part.

It's somewhat of an answer to the question, but what I'm unsure of is the effect of the cooler charge on combustion temps vs the higher hhv output as they occur in different areas of the motor. I've heard people say hotter plugs due to the cooler charge, so this caught my attention.

I've used 6's and 7's on e85, and had bad blowout on 7's with a big gap, and went to 6's with a small gap with better results, but didn't have a chance to try out the 7's with a small gap before the motor imploded (seems unrelated), so my personal research is still inconclusive.



I think E85 is really a very unique fuel to tune sparkplugs for....


I haven't personally had any E85 tuning experiences, so everything I have on it is quoted from others experiences....


I do know that regular alcohol race engines with very,very high compression like to run very cold plugs.... I know and understand that....


I have always heard it said that a person should select the proper heat range of plug for the horsepower of the engine, but, again, I do not know if that falls in line here....



I know that I run NGK #2309's (#7 heat range iridiums) in my 04 FXT with a mildly tuned S/R 50 turbo at 15psi and it makes 275whp on a Mustang dyno, and my plugs don't foul with pump gas all the time....

I end up usually replacing the plugs every 30,000 miles or so....

and I have 160,000 miles on the stock coil packs..... but again, this is not trying to light off the fuel volume and cylinder pressure in a combination anywhere close to Dustin's...... with it taking so much more fuel volume to reach the proper air fuel ratio, I believe it is straining the ignition system's capable power more than it is an improper spark plug selection.


I believe if there was an issue with a crank trigger, it wouldn't rev to 9000+rpm..... especially with 24+psi of boost....


I still think it is dwell related or basic ignition system power related....

It will take some dwell adjustments, and it may take a CDI ignition with better coils to fire off the mixture....

remember, all of the guys running alcohol in big V8's cannot do it on a stock or an hei ignition, same for the guys with LS1's with Coil per cylinder ignition..... they make stronger than stock coils and stronger ignition systems for those engines also....


If you think about the logics of it, Cubuff's engine is making somewhere around 150-160 horsepower PER CYLINDER...... at 28psi of boost....


If it were a V8, it would be making somewhere around 1200-1300 horsepower at the crank..... Now, how many V8's with stock ignitions do you know that can light off 1200-1300 horsepower running alcohol and 28psi of boost?

puts it more in perspective about why he might be having problems.....
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Old 01-12-2010, 02:23 PM   #148
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Pump for them dyno graphs drac9!
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Old 01-12-2010, 06:28 PM   #149
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Pump for them dyno graphs drac9!
I was too but they never have been posted....
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:34 PM   #150
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This was the cleanest pull I could find:



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