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Old 08-10-2009, 03:49 PM   #1
Element Tuning
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Default Redline Results, Pictures, and Video from CMP

Another Redline Time Attack scorcher in the books. With temps in the high 90s track grip was very low but this didn't slow down the action very much.

We scrambled to get an engine together for this event after suffering an ARP rod bolt failure which trashed our block and bent valves in our head at the GRM UTTC.



With the motor back in the car late Friday we headed off to South Carolina on Saturday for our 10 hour journey. Missing all of Saturday practice and then having to take it easy in practice session one to break in our engine definitely hurt my ability to learn this tricky track.



Carolina Motorsports has a mix of very high speed "kinks" but also a mix of extremely slow and sharp curves.


With practice session one complete and the engine broken in (sort of. LOL!) we headed out for practice session 2. As soon as I warmed up the tires I let the engine rip and it sputters at 7000 rpm and definitely sounds off. With the car running rough I pull into the hot pits and have the team looks things over but nothing is visually wrong. Of course I'm thinking the worse with the new engine but once I calmed down I felt like this could be a bad coil pack. As I'm working on the passenger side James Fournier is working on the driver's side and asks me if I disconnected the coil pack and I say, “I don't think so.” As soon as we look closely at the connector we discover the locking clip has broken off and the coil pack lead must have wiggled loose enough to cause the sputter but didn't actually come all the way off when we checked it in the hot pits. We zip tie the connector on and wait a painful hour (quiet hour due to local churches) before we can fire up the engine to make sure it's fixed. Luckily that's all it was.


With no track time under power I head out for timed session 1. With extremely high track temps our car was having a tough time with rear grip from the setup we used at VIR. Applying power resulted in lots of wheel hop but I managed to clip off a 1:40. The other Unlimited teams with more practice are flying clipping off 1:32-1:38 for the fast guys. I think Billy Johnson in the Factor FX car was in the 1:32s





Dadio AMS in the 1:34s




Rado Scion 1:38s,





Cory Rolex GT3 1:36s.






For practice session three we adjust the air pressures a little, add some rebound dampening to the rear, and added a little more compression dampening all around on our BC ER series coilovers. With only a few minutes left in practice session I jump out for one lap and we dropped into the 1:39s but the car and honestly my driving are not optimal.


For the finals we increased the rear downforce and added two canards to the front of the car to help with overall grip for this slick track. Still not dialed to this track I know I just need to driver hard and do what I can to salvage the time I'm loosing in the slower turns. With such high temps I'm only able to run 2 laps full out and I bobble big time on both laps doing tank slappers, pushing wide, but I manage to drop down to a 1:37 good for 2nd in Ulimited AWD. Billy Johnson sets a new track record in the 1:30s, AMS clicks off a 1:33, Rado manages a 1:35 in his crazy 900 hp Scion, the Rolex GT3 also manages a 1:35, and then times continue into the 1:40s for Unlimited.





In street class TIC took the win in convincing fashion again. In Mod class Ryan Gates also won in convincing fashion.

Congratulations to all the winners!

The dynamic for the Unlimited class has definitely changed with cars competing that have well over a quarter million dollars invested competing and with so many teams running Michelin, Yokohama, and Pirelli slicks our car which was really designed for Modified is having a hard time keeping up. I think with more track time for me and more changes to the suspension setup while we were there I think I could have managed a 1:35 but this is still way short of a 1:30 lap! No doubt it's very exciting to be part of what Time Attack has become!

I'll get some video up soon.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow
Element Tuning
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Last edited by Element Tuning; 08-10-2009 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 04:00 PM   #2
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So, are you planning to go forward with the development for unlimited or drop down to modified? It seems like you need a pretty big budget to compete in unlimited these days, and really to be competitive in Redline in general.
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:24 PM   #3
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It's really the tire budget that is so expensive for Unlimited or having to build a new car from scratch. AMS's Evo would have been down to a 1:31-32 most likely with a healthy transmission.

With the extra setup and practice day I'm pretty confident we could have run a 1:35. Given this is on pace with the Porsche I would have been very pleased with that.

To compete for an overall against the FX or the AMS EVO we would need to find another 3-4 seconds in our car. By running plastic windows and the true slicks we could drop maybe 1-2 seconds. Any more time would require some very unconventional thinking, major suspension geometry changes, relocating the driver back farther, wide body with wider tires, and maybe extending the front end so we could duct the radiator better.

In the grand scheme of things there are a few cars that can beat us but they don't always show up to the races so we win some and we loose some.

I think budget will decide if we drop down to modified or not vs staying in unlimited and refining the car. At this point I have no plans to completely over haul the car to compete with FX.

Thanks
Phil Grabow

Last edited by Element Tuning; 08-10-2009 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:34 PM   #4
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I'd love to see accellerometer / speed data from the best laps of some of the top cars. For example, is FX faster because the NSX is a great chassis / handling? Or do they have more power? Or is it less frontal area / drag for higher top speed? Better braking from the mid-engine layout? Or is it just a little bit of all the factors?

-Mike
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:43 PM   #5
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The FX was visually faster mid corner in slow corners thn the AMS car.. and those were much faster than anything else out there - including the Autometrics Porsche GT car.

The AMS Evo looks to dig out of corners better - which was always it's strong point when I was in it. The FX NSX is stupid fast as speed get higher, but does not look as fast as a GT1 trans am style car on top end.. it could be that it's nto entering the corners well, and so the driver is slowing down earlier - he certainly looked to be braking earlier than most, and earlier than GT1 SCCA cars. Talking to a driver on track with the FX car also seemed to confirm longer braking for many of the corners and slower entry into the higher speed corners.

Now.. none of that is backed up by any hard data.. but I have watched many many cars run around CMP.


Jon
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Old 08-10-2009, 11:47 PM   #6
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Here are two ugly laps both in the 1:37s.

http://www.elementtuning.com/RedlineTACarolina09/Redline CMP 2009 1-37.wmv

I wish I had more time to tweak the rear of the car to settle it down. We had the front biting nicely but the rear just had too much sway bar I think. I would have liked to make more changes but it will have to wait until next year.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow
Element Tuning
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Old 08-11-2009, 11:25 AM   #7
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Wait... is that a giant wing on the FRONT of that Scion?!

Congrats to TiC, and that was a good run from you Element guys considering the hurdles you overcame for it. I wish I could have made it down there for the race, though
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:57 PM   #8
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Yes that's a wing fit for Pikes Peak. LOL! With 900 hp I'm sure he's got no problem overcoming the drag. The times have really dropped for that car with the changes they made so it's working for them.
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Old 08-11-2009, 02:15 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
Yes that's a wing fit for Pikes Peak. LOL! With 900 hp I'm sure he's got no problem overcoming the drag. The times have really dropped for that car with the changes they made so it's working for them.
900hp and still beaten by a Grand-Am prepped (detuned) GT3 Cup car?

We told you Cory was fast!
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:51 PM   #10
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Well 900 HP in a front wheel drive car might as well be 400 hp. Also CMP was a new track for most of us. Cory definitely had the advantage going into the CMP event. Trust me I was pitted next to Autometrics and they pulled out all the stops to get that car to compete against AMS and FX but came up short. It's hard to compensate for such high temps with an NA engine.
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Old 08-11-2009, 05:18 PM   #11
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Imagine if Rado had put that time and effort (and money) into a Unlimited AWD or RWD car...to each his own I suppose.
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Old 08-11-2009, 05:52 PM   #12
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Well I know the plan at the beginning of the year was to convert the Scion to AWD but I don't think they had time. I believe that's still the plan so we may all have that goofy front wing on. LOL!
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Old 08-11-2009, 05:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grippgoat View Post
I'd love to see accellerometer / speed data from the best laps of some of the top cars. For example, is FX faster because the NSX is a great chassis / handling? Or do they have more power? Or is it less frontal area / drag for higher top speed? Better braking from the mid-engine layout? Or is it just a little bit of all the factors?

-Mike
It's not so much top speed in this case. Sure, it's fast, but in a straight line there are others just as fast or faster.

What REALLY made the difference was the absolutely BEAUTIFUL manner in which if could take corners. Their cornering speed was well above what anyone else was putting down allowing them to carry more speed around the track as a whole.

What let them do that - who's to say at this point. I got a chance to check it out a little bit, but did not get the opportunity to stick my head under it (I don't think the would have let me).
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Old 08-11-2009, 06:06 PM   #14
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Ever thought of going to a liquid to air intercooler?
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Old 08-11-2009, 07:18 PM   #15
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Ever thought of going to a liquid to air intercooler?
At first, I though about going this route but with this types of set up, I believe for road racing, W2A IC set up is not efficient as A2A IC set up mostly due to in road racing, you are continued running the motor/turbo and as the water starts to soak up the heat, as the sametime, it will take much longer to cool down once the water is heat soaked. In drag racing, you have a very short burst of power and you stop to cool off.

Also, it adds more weight to the chassis setup and it's not good for racing.
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Old 08-11-2009, 07:30 PM   #16
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My experience with air to water intercoolers is that they are only better if you can run ice in them. On a track car that will be running more than a few minutes the ice will melt pretty quickly and it will loose any power advantage. On top of this you have to carry the weight of the water also. I would say the main reason they are used for anything other than drag racing may be due to intercooler size restrictions.

Thanks,
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Old 08-11-2009, 07:36 PM   #17
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The NSX is using tires that are far more expensive and better than anyone elses tires. They are Yokohamas from Japan that are about $800 each. They have to be returned to Japan at the buyer's expense once they have been used.

This is an example of the way things are going in terms of budget.

Spare motors, motors that last one day; you name it.
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Old 08-11-2009, 10:21 PM   #18
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The NSX is using tires that are far more expensive and better than anyone elses tires. They are Yokohamas from Japan that are about $800 each. They have to be returned to Japan at the buyer's expense once they have been used.
That's ridiculous!

Quote:
This is an example of the way things are going in terms of budget.

Spare motors, motors that last one day; you name it.
I can see spare engines.... but one use engines... WOW! Is it starting to get to the ridiculous levels that the Time Attack events are in Japan?

So, uhh, what did you guys think of the track? Did anyone warn you to stay left at the kink?
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:51 AM   #19
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The track is awesome. It was my first time there. I wish it was our "home" track. I tried both right and left lines at the kink. Staying left was the right idea although at top speed it felt like I was giving myself less runout.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:39 AM   #20
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I doubt the NSX was a one-use engine, if it was it wasn't near far enough ahead of the AMS car in terms of top end speed for that. (AMS car was missing 5th gear and may have had a head gasket issue) In full form the AMS car is probably right with or ahead of the NSX.

Sometimes I think that Rado has one-use engines though - I haven't been to a weekend where they have left the same engine in the Scion the whole time yet.

As far as staying left at the kink, it depends on the car.. some setups get away with it, some don't. It does cost you runout, but in the right car it's still easy. I was actually surprised at some of the low-speed data coming from people this past weekend in the kink.. Daddio's kink low-speed seems to be less in the AMS car than it is in a stock Evo. (both on GPS) Go figure..


Jon K
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:16 AM   #21
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I am not so sure about that Jon. Because of a lack of 5th gear, my slow point was actually before turn in, and was 112mph, and I was back on throttle through the apex and down the short straight there. Unfortuantely, not having 5th gear, or the ability to use 2nd gear onto the main straight really hurt us. The other issues we had that limited me to one hot lap probably also hurt a bit. I was unable to really run the car hard on the outlap, leading to probably running my only timed lap on less than ideal tire temps also. I know our top speeds by gps were a good 10-15mph slower than the FX motorsports NSX, and Rado's car, and that was on the two longer straights. I believe our top speed was actually the same as Cory's Rolex Porsche, so he was obviously driving quite well, we certainly had an advantage over him on corner exits, and I think we are just about even with him in cornering speeds. Teething pains for sure for us, but I think the potential is really very high for this car. Turning a 1:33.1 lap with one hot lap using 3rd and 4th gear is actually pretty encouraging. I don't know if we could have beaten the NSX if all was well with the car, but it certainly would have been an exciting race.

Mark
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:06 AM   #22
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I am not so sure about that Jon. Because of a lack of 5th gear, my slow point was actually before turn in, and was 112mph, and I was back on throttle through the apex and down the short straight there.
That makes more sense, I know you had mentioned 110mph after the first couple sessions, and I have seen 114 through there in a stock Evo.

However.. I think that because it's flat, and we can use as much of the curbing as we want on the stock suspension it makes the kink a much different corner. I was surprised that even in 2006 we were not seeing the same speeds through the kink in TA1.

Mark, do you think that the difference between the cars total there might be 114 to a 118 or so for "slow" speed, and that having to brake makes it hard to slow down the exact amount needed and therefore isn't as consistant as jsut going through there flat? (Which has been my theory.. I mean, when 111 in a non-s Boxster is a non event, it seems that something strange is going on there.)


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Old 08-12-2009, 11:49 AM   #23
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That could be Jon. I think our speed at apex was right around 118-120, and could have been a few mph faster if I ran another lap. If we had a good 5th gear we would have been aproaching the kink at 140-142, instead of 130 or so, and I am now thinking that it would be quickest in a high powered car that required braking to do it like I was and give it up early and go through on the throttle.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:50 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitwrkzZ1 View Post
Imagine if Rado had put that time and effort (and money) into a Unlimited AWD or RWD car...to each his own I suppose.
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Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
Well I know the plan at the beginning of the year was to convert the Scion to AWD but I don't think they had time. I believe that's still the plan so we may all have that goofy front wing on. LOL!
I thought that they had started the AWD chassis and because of schedule were going to hold off for next year...I think its still a go
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:54 AM   #25
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That could be Jon. I think our speed at apex was right around 118-120, and could have been a few mph faster if I ran another lap. If we had a good 5th gear we would have been aproaching the kink at 140-142, instead of 130 or so, and I am now thinking that it would be quickest in a high powered car that required braking to do it like I was and give it up early and go through on the throttle.
Ah, so the speeds did pick up a lot on Sunday from Saturday.. those speeds make more sense to me.

I am pretty sure that in TA1 I was approaching the kink at 143, so no reason to expect it would be any less in the new car with no issues.


Jon
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