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Old 01-23-2013, 12:29 PM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default Toyota And BMW To Announce Hydrogen-Alliance

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Rumors are floating around in Tokyo that Toyota and BMW are about to enter an agreement where Toyota will provide its fuel cell technology to the Bavarian maker. The Nikkei [sub] says BMW plans to build a hydrogen prototype by 2015, and wants to have a hydrogen car ready for market by 2020. Other carmakers, Toyota included, plan a limited market release in the “hydrogen year” 2015, with hopes for volume production by 2020.

Toyota spokesfolk did not want to comment, then sent out an invitation for a press conference tomorrow, Thursday, in Nagoya. BMW also happens to be there. Looking at the executives in attendance, it does not appear like a meeting where joint windshield wiper procurement is discussed: On the BMW side will be Klaus Fröhlich, Strategy SVP at BMW and chief ideologue, along with development chief Dr. Herbert Diess. The Toyota side will be similarly high tech-laden with Toyota’s “father of the Prius” Takeshi Uchiyamada in attendance. Yasumori Ihara will represent Toyota Purchasing and the board. TTAC will also be there.


The move does not come as a surprise to us. Last June, we told you that “BMW will get access to Toyota’s fuel cell technologies” and that this will be “the end of the fuel cell cooperation between BMW and GM.” We told you that Toyota is far ahead with the technology. TTAC even had a short hydrogen-powered test ride through the scenic warehouse landscape of Torrance, CA. We told you that current fuel cell technology is big, bulky, heavy and expensive, and that Toyota is working on bringing package size and price down to tolerable levels. We’ll know more tomorrow
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...ogen-alliance/
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:51 PM   #2
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THANK GOD. Now all these EV's can go die while I get to keep my performance.
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:31 PM   #3
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THANK GOD. Now all these EV's can go die while I get to keep my performance.
Yeah, those Teslas can barely get out of their own way.

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Old 01-23-2013, 06:40 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
THANK GOD. Now all these EV's can go die while I get to keep my performance.
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Yeah, those Teslas can barely get out of their own way.

Furthermore, hydrogen vehicles are all EVs, too, just not BEVs.

(There is the RX-8 Hydrogen RE that burns H2 natively, but that's the odd man out. Most everything else are fuel cell-electric vehicles.)
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:13 PM   #5
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The article mentioned bringing the price to a tolerable level, I wonder what they consider that level to be?
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:54 PM   #6
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Hydrogen. Aren't we past that scam yet?
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:57 PM   #7
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Hydrogen. Aren't we past that scam yet?
There's an argument to be made for it given the US's glut of NG. Then again, why not burn the NG as CNG or LPG in combustion engines, then? Conversion/upfitting to do that would be a hell of a lot cheaper than even future tech fuel cells…
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:36 PM   #8
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What a crappy deal for Toyota. You give BMW access to your fuel cell technology which BMW can cash in right away in exchange for their hydrogen fuel tech that you probably wont make any real money until many years later.

I thought they were going to do some sports car collaboration or atleast what Nissan and Benz did but hydrogen fuel cell? Gees!
What a waste of time. I would have told BMW to GTFO with that hydrogen crap.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:43 PM   #9
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There's an argument to be made for it given the US's glut of NG. Then again, why not burn the NG as CNG or LPG in combustion engines, then? Conversion/upfitting to do that would be a hell of a lot cheaper than even future tech fuel cells…
You're converting something that has 900 BTU/ft3 (CNG) to hydrogen which has about a third of that, AND incurring a penalty for the conversion process, which is only about 80% efficient. It's an absurd false economy on par with corn ethanol.

IF the hydrogen can be sourced from the dissociation of water AND renewable energy is used to power it THEN hydrogen could make sense. That's a lot of work to produce a fuel with poor energy density. Using energy dense fossil fuels to produce hydrogen is the pinnacle of stupidity.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:08 AM   #10
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You're converting something that has 900 BTU/ft3 (CNG) to hydrogen which has about a third of that, AND incurring a penalty for the conversion process, which is only about 80% efficient. It's an absurd false economy on par with corn ethanol.

IF the hydrogen can be sourced from the dissociation of water AND renewable energy is used to power it THEN hydrogen could make sense. That's a lot of work to produce a fuel with poor energy density. Using energy dense fossil fuels to produce hydrogen is the pinnacle of stupidity.
No, I think a solar powered flashlight is more of the pinnacle of stupidity.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:15 AM   #11
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What a crappy deal for Toyota. You give BMW access to your fuel cell technology which BMW can cash in right away in exchange for their hydrogen fuel tech that you probably wont make any real money until many years later.

I thought they were going to do some sports car collaboration or atleast what Nissan and Benz did but hydrogen fuel cell? Gees!
What a waste of time. I would have told BMW to GTFO with that hydrogen crap.
The project general manager for the Toyota Prius and now vice chairman of the board is involved so obviously it's about fuel economy and alternate fuels rather than "sports car collaboration." Not sure why you thought it was about sports cars to begin with when it comes to BMW asking Toyota for something if anything at all.

Did I miss the part in time where people thought of Toyota as SPORTY instead of beige economy cars? I'm pretty sure my cryogenics lab hasn't even been built yet to freeze me so I shouldn't have missed a moment in time.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:11 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
There's an argument to be made for it given the US's glut of NG. Then again, why not burn the NG as CNG or LPG in combustion engines, then? Conversion/upfitting to do that would be a hell of a lot cheaper than even future tech fuel cells…
Yeah because we will always have cheap and plentiful natural gas especially if we are using it for transportation... It always works out so wonderfully to be dependent on a single fuel source.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:09 AM   #13
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Using energy dense fossil fuels to produce hydrogen is the pinnacle of stupidity.
^Nailed it
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:56 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by skywaffles View Post
You're converting something that has 900 BTU/ft3 (CNG) to hydrogen which has about a third of that, AND incurring a penalty for the conversion process, which is only about 80% efficient. It's an absurd false economy on par with corn ethanol.

IF the hydrogen can be sourced from the dissociation of water AND renewable energy is used to power it THEN hydrogen could make sense. That's a lot of work to produce a fuel with poor energy density. Using energy dense fossil fuels to produce hydrogen is the pinnacle of stupidity.
Is that really a valid comparison given that CNG is compressed by definition, and hydrogen fuel cells also store the fuel in compressed form, iirc?
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:28 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by A W View Post
The project general manager for the Toyota Prius and now vice chairman of the board is involved so obviously it's about fuel economy and alternate fuels rather than "sports car collaboration." Not sure why you thought it was about sports cars to begin with when it comes to BMW asking Toyota for something if anything at all.
Awhile ago, I read about the new Toyota president driving in the Nurburgring. He made a comment about always being passed by a BMW. And he said something like,"If you cant beat them. Join them." And now, I hear about the hydrogen alliance... Thats why I thought they were going to build sports cars.
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:58 AM   #16
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didn't they use to make bombs with hydrogen?
nuclear power cars next?
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:52 PM   #17
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will i still have to go get emissions tests if i buy one of these? o, no, ur producing too much oxygen.
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