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Old 05-14-2002, 08:17 AM   #51
pleiades
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Glad to hear that! I'm hoping that is all mine is. (fingers starting to get sore from being crossed)

I talked with Trey Cobb last night and confirmed exactly where to look, and what to look for, to see if you have a phase 1 or phase 2 block. You can only be about 95% sure he said, as there were a small number of phase 2 blocks with some phase 1 internals. But, I guess you just have to pretend like you didn't hear that (sometimes stupidity is bliss. lol.....). Ok, on the passenger side of the engine block. Look down at the block just behind the power steering pump. You will see the words "Japan". Just in front of that will be either 1 ridge or 2 ridges (approx. 3-4 inches long) If there is one ridge, it's a phase 2 block, if there are two ridges it's a phase 1 block. I checked mine and it is a phase 2 (appart from that earlier comment that we are trying to play dumb about. ) and I wanted to see what the phase 1 looked like so I flagged my neighbor down to take a look at his '98 outback engine... it had two ridges. So finally I know the difference! I used up all the film taking a picture of the temp gauge and my block, so I don't have a picture of a phase 1 block, but I'll try to get one soon.
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Old 05-16-2002, 06:41 AM   #52
pleiades
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I'm patiently waiting for 8:00, when my car will go 'under the knife'! I'll try to get my hands on a digital camera today and take the pictures of the different blocks.
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Old 05-17-2002, 01:13 PM   #53
motorob
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98 GT Wagon
104K Miles
5-Speed
No problems.
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Old 05-18-2002, 09:48 PM   #54
pleiades
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She's fixed! Head gasket blew on the #3 cyl. It was very minor, but it's fixed now! I'll get the pictures of the different blocks as soon as I get them.
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Old 05-19-2002, 06:50 AM   #55
richeich
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Good to hear! Congratulations on your good fortune.
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Old 05-22-2002, 09:06 AM   #56
HIHO
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So how is the new temp. gauge?
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Old 05-23-2002, 06:36 PM   #57
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bump

Last edited by seowitz; 07-09-2002 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 05-23-2002, 10:34 PM   #58
HIHO
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You got a lemon.
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Old 05-23-2002, 10:42 PM   #59
seowitz
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blah

Last edited by seowitz; 07-09-2002 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 05-24-2002, 10:23 AM   #60
xCarter
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MY 98 GT Limited (EJ25D)
Auto
43K


Owned the car for a year now, only recall work, no problems at all.

MKIVSupra - Wasn't the 30th Anniversary in the 99 MY?
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Old 05-27-2002, 11:55 AM   #61
SubeGURU
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MY97 GT Sedan
58K Miles
AUTO (unfortunately)
No problems


I've heard about the disadvantage of the 2.5 engine...my valves are knocking til the car fully warms up...after that no prob'. I took it to sube' dealership...they said it's no problem but me no sa' like it...good thing I have the extended warranty!!!

Anyone else getting them knocking vavles in the mornings?

~SubeGuru
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Old 05-27-2002, 01:16 PM   #62
HIHO
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The noise you are hearing is normal for ALL boxer engines. Just take it easy untill it warms up.
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Old 05-27-2002, 11:48 PM   #63
2.5GTL
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MY: 98 GT LTD
Tranny: Auto
Mileage: 113k
Problems: None really, and I use a lot of the right peddle. I replaced the timeing belt and water pump about 4k ago and didn't burp the cooling system very well and had similar overheating symptoms as described by others. I just took the top radiator hose off and back filled the cooling system and A-ok. I'm starting to wonder about how long my motor and tranny will last with my wide open or closed throttle habits especially with it well into the >100k territory, but I'm figure if it does go I will just EJ22T it and keep on cruising. Off topic but how much does a used 4eat tranny run? Anyways, I'm keeping my fingers crossed and my foot in the throttle body.

Jason
www.SubaruReview.com
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Old 05-29-2002, 01:46 PM   #64
jouefoot
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Question

Ok what do you guys think? I had my headgasket fixed and all put back together. Now the engine knocks when I first start it (it didn't do that before I fixed the headgasket), but as it warms up the knocking gets less noticable, but is still present. It seems louder at higher RPMs. My mechanic that fixed it said that it is most likely just a bit of carbon that is in there and it should be fine after a few tanks of gas. Do you think he is right? Is there anything else it could be? Someone told me that in the Phase I engines, the crank can rattle at high rpms. Could this be the noise? So should I hold on to the car or sell it and try to get my money out of it? I have no warranty on it, so it would ruin my pocketbook if I had to fix any more major problems. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks for the info in advance.

Josh
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Old 05-31-2002, 06:06 PM   #65
outback2.5HO
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MY: '97 Outback
Trans: 5 Speed
Miles: 125k
Problems: Bad VSS @ 28k miles (warranty), bad hydraulic piston that contacts throwout fork (made chirping sound) by 26k miles, everything else routine maintenance
Name: Ruby Suby

FYI, This car has had many miles of on and off road driving (low & high speed) and many long road trips to remote areas. I have owned it since new, and it has never left me stranded. The synthetic oil gets changed every 4k miles and other fluids every 30k. This is by far the best Subaru I have ever owned (have owned many) and would never give it up for the SOHC phII design (not enough power & don't like the body style). Much of the time the car is revving between 4-6500 rpm and is quite happy there. I really think many of the head gasket issues are caused by neglect and lack of maintenance (as on earlier engines). Also, how many of you got the valves adjusted at the 100k service or when the engine was apart? How many of you changed the water pump or oil seals at 100k (or if leaky)for preventative maintenance? This is key to the longevity of the phI 2.5. Also, if the valves aren't adjusted properly your engine will be louder (valves/lifters) and not have as much power. That is a completely different sound than the cold start piston slap the phI 2.5 is reknowned for. By trade, I am an independent Subaru specialist and have seen very, very few head gasket problems relative to how many cars with phI 2.5s I work on. One of my clients drove his '96 Outback to 280k before some ahole rear ended him several months ago (would have easily gone to 300k). He also kept up on the maintenance religiously.

You think the 2.5 has head gasket problems? Have any of you ever owned or worked on a 89-95 V6 Toyota (cast iron block, aluminum heads)? Every one of those blew the head gasket before 100K miles, which eventually lead to a recall on all of them. The all aluminum design of the 2.5 is much better and more reliable than that, and also makes more HP than that V6. If the head gasket design led to that many (thousands) gasket failures, there would be a recall on them. Most of my clients that maintain their cars properly, and don't beat the tar out of them every day are seeing 200k+ miles easily.
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Old 06-01-2002, 02:04 AM   #66
AGscooby
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gimme Legacy TPH wagon!

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99 Legacy SUS
4eat
~62k

Picked up used around 38k. Haven't experienced any engine/drivetrain problems or anything else for that matter. The green monster is going in for the 60k service next week.

AnthonyG
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Old 06-07-2002, 10:40 AM   #67
BrysImpreza
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Not my car but:

Jetemac:
Jeremy E.
1998 Legacy GT
4EAT

It was covered under warentee, but still it went at like 30K!!
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Old 06-09-2002, 11:37 AM   #68
Commuter
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1997 Outback
Red

Unhappy Chalk one up for the "Blown" side...

1997 Legacy Outback
160,000 miles (258,000 km) (this was 2 months ago)
Automatic transmission
5.5 years old.

I'm the second owner. Bought the car at 2 years old.
The car is used for "commuting". 3 hours a day of highway driving. Never taken off-road. Doesn't even see gravel.

Car was running fine. Temp gauge never moved from normal position. I discovered oil in the coolant overflow bottle one day as I was checking things under the hood. Bubbles were coming up thru the coolant as well when the engine warmed up. There were no drips in the driveway.

As for maintenance, I'm pretty fussy. Synthetic oils all around. Anti-freeze changed every 2 years. The thermostat and water pump were changed at ~120k miles along with the timing belt work. Also crank and camshaft seals altho' I never had any leaks. I asked about valve adjustment (shims on the solid lifters). The dealer said it didn't need it. I know the former owner had it done under warranty during the first 2 years. The car was great until my "discovery".

---------------------------------

Now for the real horror story.

An unrelated matter to the best of my knowledge, but the day I got my car back with new head gaskets, the bottom end failed. Con-rod bearing on number 3 cylinder went out. It's a long story, but my best guess/evidence is that the bearing was slowly failing for a long long time. As luck (Murphy) would have it, the engine flushing during the head gasket work and change of oil led to rapid final failure (of a 'suspected' nearly failed bearing).

For what it is worth, I was one of those with "piston slap". While it diminished when the engine warmed up, it never totally went away in my opinion. Interestingly, the noise was on the 1-3 cylinder side. I took the dealer's word for it when they handed me the TSB on the piston slap issue with these engines. I shrugged it off. I knew I wasn't getting a "Honda" when I bought this car. In hindsight, I have to wonder if the noise was piston slap or connecting rod. I now think it was the latter. I'll never know. Unfortunately, an oil analysis has been inconclusive as to whether this was a long term failure or a catastrophic failure.

One thing I can say. The Phase I short block that ended up in my car is definitely quieter than my original engine ever was.

I have more miles on my car than most. It will be interesting to see what happens to other owners as they creep up into the 150k to 200k miles territory.

I'm still "up" on my Subaru even after all this. I like the car and I plan to keep it for a long time yet. I've become very leary of the Phase I 2.5L DOHC engine though. My dealer has been doing a lot of head gasket work of late. And some of it is on the Phase II SOHC engines as well (usually leaks).

So there you have it.
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Old 06-09-2002, 11:04 PM   #69
SSLegacyGT
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Wagon, 5MT, Blue

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1997 Legacy GT Sedan
4EAT
90,000 miles


No problems (yet)
Minor mods, run synthetic Mobil 1.

-Derek
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Old 06-11-2002, 08:24 PM   #70
Grumpy
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Blk/gry-or whatever it is

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A newbie here. First Post/Reply. Just registered. Have two (actually a third is on its way to the great donor yard in the sky) Subies. One is a '97 Legacy S/W, 5mt, with approximately 116000 miles: NO problems with motor/head gaskets.
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Old 06-12-2002, 10:27 AM   #71
AGscooby
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gimme Legacy TPH wagon!

Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy
A newbie here. First Post/Reply. Just registered. Have two (actually a third is on its way to the great donor yard in the sky) Subies. One is a '97 Legacy S/W, 5mt, with approximately 116000 miles: NO problems with motor/head gaskets.
Grumpy, welcome to Legacy Land.

AnthonyG
May the Blitzen be with you!
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Old 06-12-2002, 11:06 AM   #72
jkyes
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Location: cottage grove, mn, usa
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99 Legacy GT
Quick silver

Question Phase I or Phase II?

From larry ganz's imprezars.com
"Be sure you have a Phase II motor before ordering - the 99 Impreza should be a Phase II but most Legacy models used a Phase I in 1999. You can tell if you have a phase II motor because the air plenum behind the motor has three metal clips that will allow you to open it and insert an extra air filter, and all three vacuum lines from valve covers and crank case will go to the air plenum, with NO vacuum lines to the intake tubing."

from section8
A way to tell for sure is by looking at the timing belt cover in front of the heads, if there is one pully (nice semi-circular end to the cover) it is a SOHC, if there is two (a sort of square end with two rounded corners), it is a DOHC.

from pleiades
Ok, on the passenger side of the engine block. Look down at the block just behind the power steering pump. You will see the words "Japan". Just in front of that will be either 1 ridge or 2 ridges (approx. 3-4 inches long) If there is one ridge, it's a phase 2 block, if there are two ridges it's a phase 1 block

so i check out all of these ways, and mine is a
99 legacy GT
56K
phase I
5speed
no problems so far
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Old 06-13-2002, 09:29 AM   #73
bluesubie
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04 FXT

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MY- 99 OB
Miles- 59,500
Trans- Auto
Name - bluesubie

No blown head gasket so far. It's my wife's car and an auto, so it's probably driven a little easier than if I drove it all the time.

Had the crank and camshaft re-seal done under warranty at ~52k
Slight tapping when cold that goes away when warm.

-Dennis
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Old 06-15-2002, 10:05 AM   #74
Patrick Olsen
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1997 Legacy 2.5GT
QuickSilver Metallic

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pleaides comment about nobody seeing sticky threads is right - I never saw this until today!

OK, my history.....

'99 2.5GT sedan 5MT
Purchased Nov '98, totalled Aug '00 @ about 35,000mi
No head gasket problem.

'97 2.5GT sedan 5MT
Purchased used Nov '00 with approximately 54,000mi. I am the third owner, two previous owners were "normal" people who seemed to take very good care of the car.
1st gasket(s): 59,775mi - under warranty just by the hair on my chinny chin chin
2nd gasket(s): ~74,000mi - repaired under 1 year unlimited mileage Subaru parts warranty on first repair

Quote:
Originally posted by richeich
I admit, the head gasket thing worries me a little. I seem to recall Patrick Olsen saying that he didn't get any indication on the temp gauge that anything was wrong. It doesn't do us any good if it doesn't indicate anything.
Actually, both times the gaskets went it was indicated on the stock gauge. If I drove the car hard the overflow bottle would begin to fill up, and would eventually puke coolant all over the place. At some point after that (probably depending on how much coolant had been blown out of the engine) the car would overheat. In both cases the car was fine if driven "normally" around town. If I went out and beat on it a bit, then it would overheat.

The first time the gaskets went I don't know how long the car had been overheating - I was blasting down some of my favorite back roads, looked down, and the gauge was already pegged. Oops! I replaced the thermostat and radiator cap the next day, but two days after that (the next time I beat on it a bit) the car overheated again. I took it to the dealer immediately since I was very close to the warranty mileage limit.

The second time the gaskets went my first indications were at an open track event. After pulling into the paddock after a 25min session on track, I was sitting in the car (engine still running) talking to my instructor. I looked down and saw the temperature was about 3/4 up the gauge (rather than the normal 1/2 way), so I asked the instructor to hop out so I could drive around. As soon as the car was rolling and had some airflow over the radiator the temp came back down to normal. I parked the car and the overflow bottle was full. Transferred the coolant back to the radiator, topped it off with a bit of water, skipped my last session on the track, drove the car 650mi home to CT no problems. I drove the car for another couple weeks until I was able to let the dealer have it for repairs. In that couple of weeks I just kept a close eye on the overflow bottle - a couple times I couldn't resist the temptation to have some fun and I filled it up again.

In April I had Cobb heads and cams installed on the car and learned that there is a new gasket out for the 2.5L DOHC. I don't think Subaru would just develop a new head gasket for sh-ts and giggles, so my guess is that there is a known problem with these engines, it's just not serious enough to warrant further action. Anyway, the new gasket is a 4 layer gasket (as opposed to the original 3 layer) and its part number ends in AA621 (the original was AA471). In the past two months (since getting the Cobb stuff on the car) I've put probably around 10,000+ miles on the car. That includes driving all the way across the country, running 7 tracks in 7 days in 85-95deg heat ( www.opentrackchallenge.com ), and then driving back across the country. No problems thus far with the new gaskets on the car. I am using 93 octane now, which I never used to do - I always used to run 87. Considering how incredibly rich the car runs in its stock condition (based on dyno runs with a wide band O2 sensor) I find it hard to believe that detonation was the cause of my previous problems. Since adding the Cobb stuff, though, I've got the car S-AFC tuned to run 13:1 AFR across the board so I figure the 93 octane is a good idea.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
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Old 06-15-2002, 10:21 AM   #75
Patrick Olsen
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Where the Navy sends me...
Vehicle:
1997 Legacy 2.5GT
QuickSilver Metallic

Default Re: Phase I or Phase II?

Quote:
Originally posted by jkyes
From larry ganz's imprezars.com
"Be sure you have a Phase II motor before ordering - the 99 Impreza should be a Phase II but most Legacy models used a Phase I in 1999. You can tell if you have a phase II motor because the air plenum behind the motor has three metal clips that will allow you to open it and insert an extra air filter, and all three vacuum lines from valve covers and crank case will go to the air plenum, with NO vacuum lines to the intake tubing."

from section8
A way to tell for sure is by looking at the timing belt cover in front of the heads, if there is one pully (nice semi-circular end to the cover) it is a SOHC, if there is two (a sort of square end with two rounded corners), it is a DOHC.

from pleiades
Ok, on the passenger side of the engine block. Look down at the block just behind the power steering pump. You will see the words "Japan". Just in front of that will be either 1 ridge or 2 ridges (approx. 3-4 inches long) If there is one ridge, it's a phase 2 block, if there are two ridges it's a phase 1 block
When people talk about the phase I vs. phase II thing, what they're really talking about is the block. With that said, the only reliable way to tell which block you have is the the technique that pleiades talked about.

The quote from Section8 is only telling you how to distinguish between the SOHC and DOHC engines. That does not tell you if you have a phase I or II block, as there were some '98 2.5RS's and '99 2.5GT's that had the phase II block (normally associated with the SOHC setup) but were DOHC (normally associated with the phase I block). To be honest, there's really no need to even look at the timing belt covers as long as you know the model year of your car. All '98 2.5RS's, '97-'99 2.5GT's, and Outbacks are DOHC, which is usually considered the "Phase I 2.5L engine". However, as I said, some of those Phase I DOHC engines actually have the Phase II block. All '99+ 2.5RS's and '00+ Legacys and Outbacks are SOHC (except, of course, for the H6 Outbacks).

The quote from Larry is, much like Section 8's quote, only talking about the stuff that's bolted to the engine block. That doesn't tell you what the block itself is, it just gives a really good idea.

Pat
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